Preview: That book I dont get to read because I wont pay up

[jeremycoe]

Too bad there's not a separate multi page thread where we can discuss this promotion.

What a preview.

[Mr_Taco]

[hunter_peterson]

If EVERYONE pirated the Books

Valiant would be OUT of Business

That's the bottom line - there is a reason why Greg doesn't want to put links out on how to pirate the comics

if everyone has the same attitude that its not wrong -- it would hurt VEI (more than it does already).

And in the end - hurt's everyone because we won't have books to read.

Eventually ... Perhaps the Business model will need to be changed

I think CROWD funding is the future for most artists, writers and musicians.

That would be true if there had ever been anything that had been only pirated and never bought. Which has literally never happened. And again, it isn't cutting into their actual profits, because people tend only to pirate if they aren't going to buy the product anyway. It only means that they make a few dollars less for every pirate out there... which even for the most pirated goods doesn't make them unprofitable. It simply isn't true.

@kjjohanson- I actually don't agree about the promotion. I think it's a good idea to get Book of Death on the shelves in greater numbers than ever before. I just think that you can't logically break down the facts of how piracy works and even remotely argue that it is theft. It might *SQUEE* companies off, but it doesn't make it theft. Piracy and theft simply are not the same thing, because nothing at all that actually can be said to exist in reality is taken from anyone with piracy, IMHO. You can't deprive someone of something that never existed.

I tend to think that people's conflation of piracy with theft is largely because of the propaganda at the beginning of every home movie for the last twenty or thiry years. Which is funny, because in terms of piracy movies and those who work in them are hardly affected. Hell, they make more money now than ever!

EDIT: It also just occurred to me that like library books, pirated copies of books are paid for. The first time. Exactly the same as borrowing a book from someone, because there was an original buyer and that money DID go to the producers of the work. So piracy not only is theft from that perspective, it actually DOES pay the publisher a small amount. Which is ironic.

[jmatt]

This blows my mind, but what can you do.

I would love the experience of a lot of things, but can't due to exclusiveness and/or price. It doesn't matter if it is a "real" exclusive or a "manufactured" exclusive; it is what it is at the end of the day, which in this case is something NOT designed for everyone to have.

This doesn't mean that I am justified in theft. As an example, I can afford a BMW or a Volvo, but I can't justify a high-end sports car. This doesn't mean that I should hate-on the company that decided to manufacture a high-end sports car for a ridiculous price simply because I can't (or won't) afford it; nor does it mean that I should break-into one and/or threaten to "borrow" it so that I can tell both the company and the owners where I stand.

We are not meant to have everything, nor are we entitled to have everything. Only so many people get the chance to *SQUEE* the prom queen, and this book is MUCH easier to get than she was.

As a matter of fact, I like the fact that I have hunted, bargained for, and bought comicbooks and/or art that no one (or VERY few people) have or ever will have. It might seem like an entitled statement to some, but if $20 with months to plan is just too difficult an obstacle to overcome then I really think there are personal and/or financial issues that exist there far beyond the comicbook collecting world.

I'm just blown-away that pages upon pages of detailed drama and/or polarized opinions on this small and almost insignificant marketed item have been posted.

Buy it or don't; it is that simple. Your opinion will not change the tide of the comicbook industry. They have decades of recorded data and market trends that tell them more than most realize and/or understand. They are doing what they KNOW will work, and will increase visibility/demand/income.

Additionally, this book WILL get around and unless you make ZERO effort to obtain a copy and/or share a copy then you don't deserve to read it. It is NOT Valiant's job to place this book into your hand damn-near free of charge.

I'm not looking to get into a huge debate, and will try my best to keep further opinions to myself. But I like that Valiant has opted to do this; I don't see this as a slap in the face to fans; I will get several copies; and I'm interested to see how the end-game plays out...

You and I share the same ethical and moral code. Like Ken stated, if you had no intention of buying it, then why are you stealing it? You obviously wanted it, you just didn't want to pay for it. Theft is theft, no matter the justification. And every court in the land would agree, for very good reasons.

[bygranddesign]

That would be true if there had ever been anything that had been only pirated and never bought. Which has literally never happened. And again, it isn't cutting into their actual profits, because people tend only to pirate if they aren't going to buy the product anyway. It only means that they make a few dollars less for every pirate out there... which even for the most pirated goods doesn't make them unprofitable. It simply isn't true.

I tend to think that people's conflation of piracy with theft is largely because of the propaganda at the beginning of every home movie for the last twenty or thiry years. Which is funny, because in terms of piracy movies and those who work in them are hardly affected. Hell, they make more money now than ever!

You don't think the music industry has been DEVASTATED by the rise of the internet age and sharing music digitally?

I was using Napster/Limewire like crazy when it came out. Did I still buy music?

Sure. But i'm also sure there is a lot of money I didn't spend because I had Napster

Now with Internet radio - allowing you to listen to music that fits your tastes for FREE - buying music becomes even more rare.

I still buy music on occasion .. but usually its just the bands I know I really really love. And its usually the signed Vinyl deluxe package..

Apple sees the writing on the wall -- that's why they bought BEATS and are now pushing Apple Music.

Movies have also gone through transformative changes in this age of INTERNET and Digital streaming. Piracy is probably a small effect ... but streaming services, tons of cable channel choices - devastates the market for small movies.

Its mostly Blockbuster/Event movies that will get people to pay extra and make a trip to the theaters.

Comics might be small enough - and different enough that maybe they are more immune to piracy. The collectability angle to owning comics is a big driving force for sales. But I'm sure there have been plenty of sales lost because someone pirated the comics.

I think eventually the comic industry will also need to think different. Scribd I think is the start of that. Subscription model. Free with Advertising. Crowd funding. I think is the future for most of these products we consume for entertainment.

[Ricomortis]

This blows my mind, but what can you do.

I would love the experience of a lot of things, but can't due to exclusiveness and/or price. It doesn't matter if it is a "real" exclusive or a "manufactured" exclusive; it is what it is at the end of the day, which in this case is something NOT designed for everyone to have.

This doesn't mean that I am justified in theft. As an example, I can afford a BMW or a Volvo, but I can't justify a high-end sports car. This doesn't mean that I should hate-on the company that decided to manufacture a high-end sports car for a ridiculous price simply because I can't (or won't) afford it; nor does it mean that I should break-into one and/or threaten to "borrow" it so that I can tell both the company and the owners where I stand.

We are not meant to have everything, nor are we entitled to have everything. Only so many people get the chance to *SQUEE* the prom queen, and this book is MUCH easier to get than she was.

As a matter of fact, I like the fact that I have hunted, bargained for, and bought comicbooks and/or art that no one (or VERY few people) have or ever will have. It might seem like an entitled statement to some, but if $20 with months to plan is just too difficult an obstacle to overcome then I really think there are personal and/or financial issues that exist there far beyond the comicbook collecting world.

I'm just blown-away that pages upon pages of detailed drama and/or polarized opinions on this small and almost insignificant marketed item have been posted.

Buy it or don't; it is that simple. Your opinion will not change the tide of the comicbook industry. They have decades of recorded data and market trends that tell them more than most realize and/or understand. They are doing what they KNOW will work, and will increase visibility/demand/income.

Additionally, this book WILL get around and unless you make ZERO effort to obtain a copy and/or share a copy then you don't deserve to read it. It is NOT Valiant's job to place this book into your hand damn-near free of charge.

I'm not looking to get into a huge debate, and will try my best to keep further opinions to myself. But I like that Valiant has opted to do this; I don't see this as a slap in the face to fans; I will get several copies; and I'm interested to see how the end-game plays out...

You and I share the same ethical and moral code. Like Ken stated, if you had no intention of buying it, then why are you stealing it? You obviously wanted it, you just didn't want to pay for it. Theft is theft, no matter the justification. And every court in the land would agree, for very good reasons.

Yea... This is stupid. Theft is theft, however you want to spin it. No justification for it, money or no money. No morals in this world is half the problem! Yes I just made that % up.

[ilzuccone]

This blows my mind, but what can you do.

I would love the experience of a lot of things, but can't due to exclusiveness and/or price. It doesn't matter if it is a "real" exclusive or a "manufactured" exclusive; it is what it is at the end of the day, which in this case is something NOT designed for everyone to have.

This doesn't mean that I am justified in theft. As an example, I can afford a BMW or a Volvo, but I can't justify a high-end sports car. This doesn't mean that I should hate-on the company that decided to manufacture a high-end sports car for a ridiculous price simply because I can't (or won't) afford it; nor does it mean that I should break-into one and/or threaten to "borrow" it so that I can tell both the company and the owners where I stand.

We are not meant to have everything, nor are we entitled to have everything. Only so many people get the chance to *SQUEE* the prom queen, and this book is MUCH easier to get than she was.

As a matter of fact, I like the fact that I have hunted, bargained for, and bought comicbooks and/or art that no one (or VERY few people) have or ever will have. It might seem like an entitled statement to some, but if $20 with months to plan is just too difficult an obstacle to overcome then I really think there are personal and/or financial issues that exist there far beyond the comicbook collecting world.

I'm just blown-away that pages upon pages of detailed drama and/or polarized opinions on this small and almost insignificant marketed item have been posted.

Buy it or don't; it is that simple. Your opinion will not change the tide of the comicbook industry. They have decades of recorded data and market trends that tell them more than most realize and/or understand. They are doing what they KNOW will work, and will increase visibility/demand/income.

Additionally, this book WILL get around and unless you make ZERO effort to obtain a copy and/or share a copy then you don't deserve to read it. It is NOT Valiant's job to place this book into your hand damn-near free of charge.

I'm not looking to get into a huge debate, and will try my best to keep further opinions to myself. But I like that Valiant has opted to do this; I don't see this as a slap in the face to fans; I will get several copies; and I'm interested to see how the end-game plays out...

You and I share the same ethical and moral code. Like Ken stated, if you had no intention of buying it, then why are you stealing it? You obviously wanted it, you just didn't want to pay for it. Theft is theft, no matter the justification. And every court in the land would agree, for very good reasons.

Yea... This is stupid. Theft is theft, however you want to spin it. No justification for it, money or no money. No morals in this world is half the problem! Yes I just made that % up.

you're holding yourself to a higher code than most of these "big" businesses. good for you but i for one am not going to feel horrible when i listen to a book on tape illegally put on youtube.

what about buying a home made sponge bob square pants piñata from a mom and pop shop in downtown LA? Wow that's big time intellectual property that those people didn't pay a licensing fee for. I'm willing to bet everyone beating their chest over low morals and thievery wouldn't feel bad about filling ol' sponge bob up with candy and bringing it to a party.

[kjjohanson]

If EVERYONE pirated the Books

Valiant would be OUT of Business

That's the bottom line - there is a reason why Greg doesn't want to put links out on how to pirate the comics

if everyone has the same attitude that its not wrong -- it would hurt VEI (more than it does already).

And in the end - hurt's everyone because we won't have books to read.

Eventually ... Perhaps the Business model will need to be changed

I think CROWD funding is the future for most artists, writers and musicians.

That would be true if there had ever been anything that had been only pirated and never bought. Which has literally never happened. And again, it isn't cutting into their actual profits, because people tend only to pirate if they aren't going to buy the product anyway. It only means that they make a few dollars less for every pirate out there... which even for the most pirated goods doesn't make them unprofitable. It simply isn't true.

Thank you for acknowledging that your theft does indeed cost the publisher money. You can try to justify your theft any way you want, but it's clear that you're just looking to have the financial burden for your own entertainment placed on the shoulders of others.

@kjjohanson- I actually don't agree about the promotion. I think it's a good idea to get Book of Death on the shelves in greater numbers than ever before. I just think that you can't logically break down the facts of how piracy works and even remotely argue that it is theft. It might *SQUEE* companies off, but it doesn't make it theft. Piracy and theft simply are not the same thing, because nothing at all that actually can be said to exist in reality is taken from anyone with piracy, IMHO. You can't deprive someone of something that never existed.

I never said it wasn't good for the retailer. I just don't think it's fan-friendly.

I tend to think that people's conflation of piracy with theft is largely because of the propaganda at the beginning of every home movie for the last twenty or thiry years. Which is funny, because in terms of piracy movies and those who work in them are hardly affected. Hell, they make more money now than ever!

Or maybe people actually thought about it in a non-selfish manner and see the actual damage caused rather than rationalizing their theft.

EDIT: It also just occurred to me that like library books, pirated copies of books are paid for. The first time. Exactly the same as borrowing a book from someone, because there was an original buyer and that money DID go to the producers of the work. So piracy not only is theft from that perspective, it actually DOES pay the publisher a small amount. Which is ironic.

No; I addressed that earlier. The original purchaser still has the purchased copy. It's not a single book being exchanged on a temporary basis.

[hunter_peterson]

@bygranddesign:

No, I don't think that the music industry has been devastated by piracy. Otherwise new music wouldn't be being made and new musicians wouldn't be millionaires. The music industry was targeted specifically by Napster and it forced them to evolve to fit the modern market. If anything, the music industry is doing better than ever before, because record labels are no longer as important as they once were. Music as an industry has become much more democratised and open source in general. And there are many, many cheap and good music apps and services, such as Spotify or iTunes, that allow for easy access to a world full of music.

It couldn't really be argued that it is in a weakened state at all- for example, the premium vinyl editions of albums you mention are more viable because CDs are not as large a portion of the marketing model for music. By cutting back on the production of hard disks they have allowed niche markets to blossom.

(Also, musicians get royalties from Internet radio, generally.)

As for movies- using Universal as an example, the few billion dollar movies this year have subsidised the last few years of weak output from that company. So those big blockbusters are helping to keep the movie industry alive. Ticket sales are declining soley because the cinemas themselves are too expensive, but the overseas markets such as China more than make up for it. The market is evolving, not dying. The Interview was released for free online and still made a good showing at the box office when released traditionally. And smaller movies still turn a profit from ticket sales alone, lets not forget.

As for comics- Comixology essentially has prevented piracy from being very useful. It's an extremely easy alternative that works well and often has excellent sales. Comics are largely pirated solely because they are unavailable any other way, I would think. And they even offer DRM free copies of many comics, implying that piracy is no threat to their market dominance.

It'll be interesting to see how that develops in the future, as you say. Crowd funding has already opened up the comics industry more than ever before! The future is exciting!

[kjjohanson]

If EVERYONE pirated the Books

Valiant would be OUT of Business

That's the bottom line - there is a reason why Greg doesn't want to put links out on how to pirate the comics

if everyone has the same attitude that its not wrong -- it would hurt VEI (more than it does already).

And in the end - hurt's everyone because we won't have books to read.

exactly. and these people aren't going out of business even with a few people pirating. so i don't feel bad when i do it… which isn't much anymore because i make a good living and buying is usually easier than stealing.

I'm not sure if you should be agreeing with me ... cause I do think its wrong

But I do understand that its an inevitable reality that people will look to get a product for free ..and its enough of a moral grey area that they won't feel like they are doing any real harm.

I think its a rising tide ... and you can either think differently and ride the wave or you can try to build bigger and bigger barriers

I think riding the wave might be the smarter move long term

Like Internet Radio -- Comixology should embrace free comics. Embed 2-3 commercial video's within a free comic that you are FORCED to watch.

Would the embedded commercials be more profitable than getting 3.99?

I think this would dramatically cut down on piracy as well -- i'm personally used to commercials when I watch TV shows or my internet radio over broadband.

If i'm Valiant I would go a different way next time -- make the comic completely free

Host it yourself or through some other digital comic partner -- Embed 3-4 video's within the comic that you have to watch in order to get to the next page. And PLASTER IT All over SOCIAL MEDIA! BRAND NEW FREE COMIC! Come and GET IT!

The videos could just be those youtube video's they make for upcoming comics

Or how about a little tease about Bloodshot Movie in 2017...?

How freaking cool would that be?

I think something like that could increase brand awareness and create more fans and maybe even be more profitable in the long run. It certainly would make the customers and potential customers a lot more happy than this promotion/gimmick.

I don't think adding advertising is going to solve the problem, and especially isn't going to allow for free comics. Moreso if your suggestion is to add an advertisement for another free comic. The money has to come from somewhere. I think part of the reason one sees less advertisements in comics these days is that there aren't enough eyes on them to make them financially viable.

[hunter_peterson]

@ricomortis:

Yes, theft is theft. And copyright infringement is copyright infringement. The two are both crimes, but they are different crimes, which is my whole point. They simply do not work in the same way at all, despite how the movie and music industry has characterised it. If anything, copyright infringement is forgery.

And seriously, saying "theft is theft" is not a substantive argument. It doesn't actually explain HOW it is theft. The money that is stolen by theft exists. The money lost to piracy never did. Hence; not theft. Just copyright infringement.

@kjohanson:

I reiterate- you cannot steal something that does not exist. Piracy is only copyright infringement. You know, like when you watch a movie in a a room win people. You're all viewing the same product, but only one of you paid for it, which means he money that COULD have been spent WASN'T. This is not even logically a loss, as to lose something one must have possessed it in the first place. Referring to it as theft is disingenuous, really.

As for damage caused, there really is no evidence of that, due to it being hypothetical damage done to hypothetical earnings. If I sell a lemonade without a price tag and get ten dollars, I didn't lose ten billion dollars just because I didn't get given it. I gained ten dollars.

And whether or not the original purchaser maintains possession of the material is irrelevant. It actually supports that it isn't theft if it is in both hands, because that is most similar to forgery.

Which is duplication- the opposite of theft.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to change your minds, because I know you guys will stick to your anti-pirate guns. I'm enjoying the debate about copyright infringement. Which is, by its very definition, not theft.

[hunter_peterson]

If EVERYONE pirated the Books

Valiant would be OUT of Business

That's the bottom line - there is a reason why Greg doesn't want to put links out on how to pirate the comics

if everyone has the same attitude that its not wrong -- it would hurt VEI (more than it does already).

And in the end - hurt's everyone because we won't have books to read.

exactly. and these people aren't going out of business even with a few people pirating. so i don't feel bad when i do it… which isn't much anymore because i make a good living and buying is usually easier than stealing.

I'm not sure if you should be agreeing with me ... cause I do think its wrong

But I do understand that its an inevitable reality that people will look to get a product for free ..and its enough of a moral grey area that they won't feel like they are doing any real harm.

I think its a rising tide ... and you can either think differently and ride the wave or you can try to build bigger and bigger barriers

I think riding the wave might be the smarter move long term

Like Internet Radio -- Comixology should embrace free comics. Embed 2-3 commercial video's within a free comic that you are FORCED to watch.

Would the embedded commercials be more profitable than getting 3.99?

I think this would dramatically cut down on piracy as well -- i'm personally used to commercials when I watch TV shows or my internet radio over broadband.

If i'm Valiant I would go a different way next time -- make the comic completely free

Host it yourself or through some other digital comic partner -- Embed 3-4 video's within the comic that you have to watch in order to get to the next page. And PLASTER IT All over SOCIAL MEDIA! BRAND NEW FREE COMIC! Come and GET IT!

The videos could just be those youtube video's they make for upcoming comics

Or how about a little tease about Bloodshot Movie in 2017...?

How freaking cool would that be?

I think something like that could increase brand awareness and create more fans and maybe even be more profitable in the long run. It certainly would make the customers and potential customers a lot more happy than this promotion/gimmick.

I don't think adding advertising is going to solve the problem, and especially isn't going to allow for free comics. Moreso if your suggestion is to add an advertisement for another free comic. The money has to come from somewhere. I think part of the reason one sees less advertisements in comics these days is that there aren't enough eyes on them to make them financially viable.

Yeah, adds on digital comics would be heinous. It'd drive people away from the vendor, or just encourage comics-friendly add blocking. And after the Twix fiasco I doubt people would be very open to it. And KJ is probably right that there likely isn't enough money at stake to interest many investors in advertising. Though, I hate to suggest it, mining comic book apps for metadata and user preferences would likely be very profitable.

I do think adds for comics before comic-related movies or during comic-related shows would be excellent, though. It's really the only logical way you could get those butts in comic shops, IMHO.

[bygranddesign]

Advertising is moving more and more away from Television and to the Internet/Social Media

I go through my facebook news feed and click on videos all the time and have to "endure" a 10 second ad spot before getting to see my piano playing kitten video -- does the 10 second ad bother me? Not really/. I think we are pretty much used to it. Its not a big deal. I then get to see cute kitties playing piano. win-win.

If there was a link to a FREE COMIC BOOK in my newsfeed ... would a 10 second ad before viewing my comic bother me?

Hell no.

And I would probably even like the AD if its its GEARED towards my likes or Comic Book Related.

I think this is the future of consumption ... and advertising.

And i'm all for data-mining my likes ... I want SMART TARGETED advertising.

[kjjohanson]

@ricomortis:

Yes, theft is theft. And copyright infringement is copyright infringement. The two are both crimes, but they are different crimes, which is my whole point. They simply do not work in the same way at all, despite how the movie and music industry has characterised it. If anything, copyright infringement is forgery.

And seriously, saying "theft is theft" is not a substantive argument. It doesn't actually explain HOW it is theft. The money that is stolen by theft exists. The money lost to piracy never did. Hence; not theft. Just copyright infringement.

@kjohanson:

I reiterate- you cannot steal something that does not exist. Piracy is only copyright infringement. You know, like when you watch a movie in a a room win people. You're all viewing the same product, but only one of you paid for it, which means he money that COULD have been spent WASN'T. This is not even logically a loss, as to lose something one must have possessed it in the first place. Referring to it as theft is disingenuous, really.

As for damage caused, there really is no evidence of that, due to it being hypothetical damage done to hypothetical earnings. If I sell a lemonade without a price tag and get ten dollars, I didn't lose ten billion dollars just because I didn't get given it. I gained ten dollars.

And whether or not the original purchaser maintains possession of the material is irrelevant. It actually supports that it isn't theft if it is in both hands, because that is most similar to forgery.

Which is duplication- the opposite of theft.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to change your minds, because I know you guys will stick to your anti-pirate guns. I'm enjoying the debate about copyright infringement. Which is, by its very definition, not theft.

Forgery is not an accurate analogy to piracy. Forgery suggests one is trying to pass off a (presumably low-value) copy as the (presumably valuable) genuine article. That's not what is going on here. The more applicable analogy is theft of service.

What's disingenuous is to suggest that the thing does not exist. It may not be a physical copy of the book, but it exists as a string of zeroes and ones in a computer file. And it is the product of someone's time and energy. Which you are accessing without being entitled to access it. Theft.

[ilzuccone]

when do we get back to crying about the L of the G?

[kjjohanson]

when do we get back to crying about the L of the G?

There's another thread for that.

[ilzuccone]

when do we get back to crying about the L of the G?

There's another thread for that.

haaaaa

[Brapbrap]

So they would have to prove that you personally cost the company money by not buying the material in question. Ameirca's laws are really restrictive and, IMHO, unethical when it comes to freedom of information on the Internet.

What you call freedom of information other people call their livelihood. That's like a bank robber saying that he didn't intend to earn all the money he stole, therefore it's his for the taking. He wasn't gonna earn it anyway, so what's the harm? Those rich depositors lie and cheat and steal, so they deserve it.

hahahaha no

its like if a bank robber stole 1 million pounds without the bank losing a single penny

if i pirate a comic its not like someone else's copy of that comic disappears, nobody is losing out if i never intended to buy it

If you didn't intend on buying it then why are you stealing it? The bottom line is that the demand is there to read it (unless you're just a klepto), and that demand has value. Trying to rationalize it doesn't make it right.

it isn't stealing lol. as i just explained when you steal something someone else loses it. would you report your car as stolen if it was still where you parked it?

i would like to read the comic but I would rather not read it at all than buy it. I do not want to fund these incentives with my money. I do not want Valiant to do another incentive like this.

It is ridiculous for me to financially support a business strategy that I don't agree with.

https://litreactor.com/columns/top-10-r ... eyre-wrong" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, nothing physical is taken in a variety of crimes classified as "theft of services" (e.g. turnstile jumping, tampering with a utility meter, etc.), but they're still prosecuted as larceny.

we're not talking about whether or not piracy is legal, we are talking about whether or not it is morally wrong. If your only moral compass is whether or not its legal it shows that you cannot be very good at thinking for yourself

the article you posted is awful because it makes a lot of assumptions about me. I DO always support small creators, even if I originally pirate their work I will buy a physical copy if I enjoy it. I DO have an interest in games and comics that are genuinely not available any more. It makes nonsense comparisons like saying pirating is like trying to steal a paperback book because you own the ebook - stealing a paperback book is taking a physical product out of the bookstore - they would have sold it to someone else if you hadn't stolen it. No sale is lost if I pirate an ebook, read 20 pages, decide I don't like it and delete it.

[greg]

it isn't stealing lol. as i just explained when you steal something someone else loses it. would you report your car as stolen if it was still where you parked it?

I don't agree. If you steal my idea... I still have my idea... but you have it too, and you didn't pay for it.

[Brapbrap]

yeah but while i would potentially get access to Fred Van Lente's ideas for free it's not like I'm going to use his idea to make money, I'm not going to print out his comic and sell it to other people or anything like that. I will even buy it properly if it gets a Deluxe HC release down the line. I think I will probably pirate it though when it comes out because I want to read it as it is released, I have read every other Valiant comic as it was released and it would be a shame to stop just because I don't want to support this initiative.

[greg]

yeah but while i would potentially get access to Fred Van Lente's ideas for free it's not like I'm going to use his idea to make money, I'm not going to print out his comic and sell it to other people or anything like that. I will even buy it properly if it gets a Deluxe HC release down the line. I think I will probably pirate it though when it comes out because I want to read it as it is released, I have read every other Valiant comic as it was released and it would be a shame to stop just because I don't want to support this initiative.

Sounds like theft and weak justification.

No wait...

It is.

Your justifications do not stand up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Electronic_Theft_Act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The United States No Electronic Theft Act (NET Act), a federal law passed in 1997, provides for criminal prosecution of individuals who engage in copyright infringement under certain circumstances, even when there is no monetary profit or commercial benefit from the infringement."

[jeremycoe]

Maybe a local restaurant would let me eat there every night and only make me pay if I really enjoy the food.

"But sir, you ate everything on the plate."
"But I didn't enjoy it enough to support it financially - maybe tomorrow"

[Brapbrap]

yeah but while i would potentially get access to Fred Van Lente's ideas for free it's not like I'm going to use his idea to make money, I'm not going to print out his comic and sell it to other people or anything like that. I will even buy it properly if it gets a Deluxe HC release down the line. I think I will probably pirate it though when it comes out because I want to read it as it is released, I have read every other Valiant comic as it was released and it would be a shame to stop just because I don't want to support this initiative.

Sounds like theft and weak justification.

No wait...

It is.

Your justifications do not stand up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Electronic_Theft_Act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The United States No Electronic Theft Act (NET Act), a federal law passed in 1997, provides for criminal prosecution of individuals who engage in copyright infringement under certain circumstances, even when there is no monetary profit or commercial benefit from the infringement."

i dont live in the united states

Maybe a local restaurant would let me eat there every night and only make me pay if I really enjoy the food.

"But sir, you ate everything on the plate."
"But I didn't enjoy it enough to support it financially - maybe tomorrow"

its not like fred van lente just handwrote the comic in front of me though is it.

he wrote it once and valiant sells copies of it

i am not ever going to buy one of those copies in their current format so they lose $0 if i pirate it

if it doesnt get scanned im still not going to buy it so i was never a potential customer for this issue

and if i did not pirate comics i wouldnt be here, i wouldn't even know what valiant was. i found valiant because i pirated some of the original summer of valiant stuff and loved it, now I own physical copies of all those comics. they actually gained money from me pirating because before i pirated those comics i would never have bought stuff from a publisher like valiant that had no creators i had heard of previously

Maybe a local restaurant would let me eat there every night and only make me pay if I really enjoy the food.

"But sir, you ate everything on the plate."
"But I didn't enjoy it enough to support it financially - maybe tomorrow"

I buy a $4 hamburger every day at a restaurant.
I find out they are going to offer a $20 steak on a special day.
I will figure out how to eat that steak for free on that special day because it costs more than the $4 that I like to pay for beef.
It's their fault for charging more for beef.
I'm the victim.

if you magically ate the beef without the restaurant losing any beef then is there anything wrong with that?

[greg]

Maybe a local restaurant would let me eat there every night and only make me pay if I really enjoy the food.

"But sir, you ate everything on the plate."
"But I didn't enjoy it enough to support it financially - maybe tomorrow"

I buy a $4 hamburger every day at a restaurant.
I find out they are going to offer a $20 steak on a special day.
I will figure out how to eat that steak for free on that special day because it costs more than the $4 that I like to pay for beef.
It's their fault for charging more for beef.
I'm the victim.

[greg]

i am not ever going to buy one of those copies in their current format so they lose $0 if i pirate it

if it doesnt get scanned im still not going to buy it so i was never a potential customer for this issue

and if i did not pirate comics i wouldnt be here, i wouldn't even know what valiant was. i found valiant because i pirated some of the original summer of valiant stuff and loved it, now I own physical copies of all those comics. they actually gained money from me pirating because before i pirated those comics i would never have bought stuff from a publisher like valiant that had no creators i had heard of previously

I will never buy a car so they lose $0 if I just test drive it without permission.

If I don't test drive a car without permission then I won't be driving a car at all because I am not a potential customer for a car.

The car I take is always back when anyone looks for it, so it's not like I'm taking something and keeping someone else from having it.

I found out that I like test driving cars without permission so I decided that I should buy a car.

If I hadn't been test driving cars without permission then I would never have bought a car. I found the car that I loved because I was test driving cars without permission. They got money from me they never would have gotten because I was test driving cars without permission.

Test driving cars without permission benefits the car seller. Why should they keep anyone from test driving cars without permission?