Shadowman: End Times #3 Discussion

[ShadowTuga]

I gotta believe in the VALIANT staff and here's my opinion on this Shadowmess: I think End Times was a way to make us readers HATE the Jack Boniface Shadowman and be more than ready (HAPPILY in my personal case) to accept a new person on the job. This guy is too messed up to be taken seriously, imo. VALIANT wanted us to be witnesses of a fall of a character into darkness (and I'm not referring to the out-of-nowhere-it's-the-only-thing-to-do pact with Darque), and Milligan is getting a new guy or gal who can take the job from this stupid kid and be the Shadowman hunter of Rogue loa spirits that he had planned.
And if that was the plan, wow- it certainly worked. I *SQUEE* hate VEI's Jack Boniface guts now.
My 2 cents.

[leonmallett]

I gotta believe in the VALIANT staff and here's my opinion on this Shadowmess: I think End Times was a way to make us readers HATE the Jack Boniface Shadowman and be more than ready (HAPPILY in my personal case) to accept a new person on the job. This guy is too messed up to be taken seriously, imo. VALIANT wanted us to be witnesses of a fall of a character into darkness (and I'm not referring to the out-of-nowhere-it's-the-only-thing-to-do pact with Darque), and Milligan is getting a new guy or gal who can take the job from this stupid kid and be the Shadowman hunter of Rogue loa spirits that he had planned.
And if that was the plan, wow- it certainly worked. I *SQUEE* hate VEI's Jack Boniface guts now.
My 2 cents.

The problem with that for me, if VEI were intending something along those lines, is that it does feel forced, and 8 issues to make that transition when it does feel forced and a 'hack' of sorts (cutting roughly) is a big waste of those 8 issues.

[Shadowman99]

I gotta believe in the VALIANT staff and here's my opinion on this Shadowmess: I think End Times was a way to make us readers HATE the Jack Boniface Shadowman and be more than ready (HAPPILY in my personal case) to accept a new person on the job. This guy is too messed up to be taken seriously, imo. VALIANT wanted us to be witnesses of a fall of a character into darkness (and I'm not referring to the out-of-nowhere-it's-the-only-thing-to-do pact with Darque), and Milligan is getting a new guy or gal who can take the job from this stupid kid and be the Shadowman hunter of Rogue loa spirits that he had planned.
And if that was the plan, wow- it certainly worked. I *SQUEE* hate VEI's Jack Boniface guts now.
My 2 cents.

The problem with that for me, if VEI were intending something along those lines, is that it does feel forced, and 8 issues to make that transition when it does feel forced and a 'hack' of sorts (cutting roughly) is a big waste of those 8 issues.

I'd be very surprised if that was the 'Grand Plan' all along. I can see what you're getting at with this one, but I can't see why a company would want to make an audience 'hate' one of their main characters in any circumstance. In the business sense, that's surely only going to lead to people dropping the comic and reduced profits. Then 'planning' for the comic to pick up steam again from that point? That seems like pretty bad business practice to me, so sorry but I don't think you can be right about this.

Milligan already had the chance to replace Jack as the Shadowman with Josiah, who (at least as far as this board was concerned, up until End Times) was a popular character that everyone wanted to see more of. It literally happened in the comic: Josiah offered Jack to give up the Loa by taking it back himself, and it didn't happen. Could've had a new Shadowman right there, so if that opportunity was passed up I doubt very much that an entirely new character is going to become Shadowman one way or another.

But I do agree with your thoughts that: "This guy is too messed up to be taken seriously...". This Shadowman character has been pulled in so many directions already that it hardly knows where it's going anymore. I wouldn't say that it's totally impossible to make a good book out of it yet if they were to carry on with it as it is and turn the plot and character around into something that had a definite direction to it, but it seems to me that the easiest thing that could be done at the moment is have some kind of 'The Death of Jack Boniface' arc and basically restart the comic line with a new character as the Shadowman host.

[Sir Sandrick]

Finally, I dared myself to finish this because it was one of the only things that I hadn't read.

Oh man... for something that we all thought would be an all inclusive mini- So little went on and things happened that seemed totally unbelievable. Some really bad misses, page 12 top "But first, don't you what to know why I'm willing to help you?"

The original Shadowman was one of my favs next to X-O back in the day, so like many here I feel pretty dismayed that he is such a pathetic character. I think the main reason for this is that the old Jack loved his powers and felt like a superhero, cleaning up the night. The new one is this damaged, emo, whiny, broken man who is basically unlikable on all fronts. I think they were trying to make him realistic, but I was trying to find some way to connect with him and his motivations and it just never happened.

Shadowman 0 was an INCREDIBLE issue that restored my hope in the book, so it was even more hard to see the book falter after that. The first 2 issues of End Times were passable, but the third was all over the place with so so art and writing like "This is your loa Jack..." - just seemed rushed.

Especially after reading the incredible Dr. Mirage books, this was a real letdown. Here's hoping they can salvage the property somehow with a writer like Jen Van Meter.

[leonmallett]

I gotta believe in the VALIANT staff and here's my opinion on this Shadowmess: I think End Times was a way to make us readers HATE the Jack Boniface Shadowman and be more than ready (HAPPILY in my personal case) to accept a new person on the job. This guy is too messed up to be taken seriously, imo. VALIANT wanted us to be witnesses of a fall of a character into darkness (and I'm not referring to the out-of-nowhere-it's-the-only-thing-to-do pact with Darque), and Milligan is getting a new guy or gal who can take the job from this stupid kid and be the Shadowman hunter of Rogue loa spirits that he had planned.
And if that was the plan, wow- it certainly worked. I *SQUEE* hate VEI's Jack Boniface guts now.
My 2 cents.

The problem with that for me, if VEI were intending something along those lines, is that it does feel forced, and 8 issues to make that transition when it does feel forced and a 'hack' of sorts (cutting roughly) is a big waste of those 8 issues.

I'd be very surprised if that was the 'Grand Plan' all along. I can see what you're getting at with this one, but I can't see why a company would want to make an audience 'hate' one of their main characters in any circumstance. In the business sense, that's surely only going to lead to people dropping the comic and reduced profits. Then 'planning' for the comic to pick up steam again from that point? That seems like pretty bad business practice to me, so sorry but I don't think you can be right about this.

Your point kind of underscores to me the arguable mis-handling of Shadowman.

Milligan already had the chance to replace Jack as the Shadowman with Josiah, who (at least as far as this board was concerned, up until End Times) was a popular character that everyone wanted to see more of. It literally happened in the comic: Josiah offered Jack to give up the Loa by taking it back himself, and it didn't happen. Could've had a new Shadowman right there, so if that opportunity was passed up I doubt very much that an entirely new character is going to become Shadowman one way or another.

I am not sure it rules out VEI trying again, I just think it may delay things, unless it IS part of a 'grand plan', in which hypothetical case I don't think it has been well executed during the Milligan tenure.

But I do agree with your thoughts that: "This guy is too messed up to be taken seriously...". This Shadowman character has been pulled in so many directions already that it hardly knows where it's going anymore. I wouldn't say that it's totally impossible to make a good book out of it yet if they were to carry on with it as it is and turn the plot and character around into something that had a definite direction to it, but it seems to me that the easiest thing that could be done at the moment is have some kind of 'The Death of Jack Boniface' arc and basically restart the comic line with a new character as the Shadowman host.

Pretty much agreed. I think the right writer could do a great job with the Shadowman mythos, including maybe straightening a couple of Milligan's swerves. I suppose it comes down to VEI's priorities.

[leonmallett]

Finally, I dared myself to finish this because it was one of the only things that I hadn't read.

Oh man... for something that we all thought would be an all inclusive mini- So little went on and things happened that seemed totally unbelievable. Some really bad misses, page 12 top "But first, don't you what to know why I'm willing to help you?"

The original Shadowman was one of my favs next to X-O back in the day, so like many here I feel pretty dismayed that he is such a pathetic character. I think the main reason for this is that the old Jack loved his powers and felt like a superhero, cleaning up the night. The new one is this damaged, emo, whiny, broken man who is basically unlikable on all fronts. I think they were trying to make him realistic, but I was trying to find some way to connect with him and his motivations and it just never happened.

Shadowman 0 was an INCREDIBLE issue that restored my hope in the book, so it was even more hard to see the book falter after that. The first 2 issues of End Times were passable, but the third was all over the place with so so art and writing like "This is your loa Jack..." - just seemed rushed.

Especially after reading the incredible Dr. Mirage books, this was a real letdown. Here's hoping they can salvage the property somehow with a writer like Jen Van Meter.

I would love to see Jen Van Meter tackle the book, and with a mandate to correct the arguable mis-steps.

She has done a great job (so far - I haven't read the latest issue yet! ) on seemingly repositioning Dr. Mirage a little closer to the classic proposition (albeit with the gender roles reversed).

[Sir Sandrick]

Finally, I dared myself to finish this because it was one of the only things that I hadn't read.

Oh man... for something that we all thought would be an all inclusive mini- So little went on and things happened that seemed totally unbelievable. Some really bad misses, page 12 top "But first, don't you what to know why I'm willing to help you?"

The original Shadowman was one of my favs next to X-O back in the day, so like many here I feel pretty dismayed that he is such a pathetic character. I think the main reason for this is that the old Jack loved his powers and felt like a superhero, cleaning up the night. The new one is this damaged, emo, whiny, broken man who is basically unlikable on all fronts. I think they were trying to make him realistic, but I was trying to find some way to connect with him and his motivations and it just never happened.

Shadowman 0 was an INCREDIBLE issue that restored my hope in the book, so it was even more hard to see the book falter after that. The first 2 issues of End Times were passable, but the third was all over the place with so so art and writing like "This is your loa Jack..." - just seemed rushed.

Especially after reading the incredible Dr. Mirage books, this was a real letdown. Here's hoping they can salvage the property somehow with a writer like Jen Van Meter.

I would love to see Jen Van Meter tackle the book, and with a mandate to correct the arguable mis-steps.

She has done a great job (so far - I haven't read the latest issue yet! ) on seemingly repositioning Dr. Mirage a little closer to the classic proposition (albeit with the gender roles reversed).

Oh man, I think that you will like the most recent one. A superb ending to the arc imo. Consistently strong throughout, which is exactly what Shadowman was not

[jmatt]

I would love to see Jen Van Meter tackle the book, and with a mandate to correct the arguable mis-steps.

She's proven she's got the chops to take this on. Loved what she did with Mirage in the same milieu.

[cray_ws]

I didn't think End Times was that bad. Sure it had a few things that could've been better, but overall I liked it and it left me wondering what's next.

I gotta say Jen Van Meter is knocking Dr. Mirage outta the park! And the art direction is sublime. This is everything I would like to see in a Shadowman series.

[jmatt]

I didn't think End Times was that bad. Sure it had a few things that could've been better, but overall I liked it and it left me wondering what's next.

I agree. The book had some interesting elements and gets a worse rap than it deserves.