Shadowman: End Times #3 Discussion

[BugsySig]

Ummm...My mother always said if you don't have anything nice to say...

...but I'm gonna do it anyway.

This was crap. Jack Boniface has been completely destroyed as a sympathetic character and is now beyond salvaging. I thought Milligan was brought in to do just that, and yet he's completely buried the character.

I honestly can't believe VEI would even green light what happened in this issue. There was a moment there where I thought either Josiah would become Shadowman again or the Vooodoo Pantheon would release the Bonifaces from the curse and the whole series would be reset. But, nope.

Was the last page supposed to be some shocking twist that leaves me demanding more Shadowman? Because it wasn't. Instead, it left me hoping for some brain trauma that would result in selective amnesia so I can forget this entire failed experiment in Shadowman.

VEI's first real failure IMHO. Even Ming Doyle would have been an improvement at this point.

[Captain Craig]

Like many I've been following this slow moving trainwreck. I kinda am now eager to see the collision.
Like so many I just can't believe how much VEI has bungled Shadowman.
I expected Q&W to not WOW me, cause I've never been a fan but Shadowman I did and it didn't.

[ValiantChris1994]

I was hoping that Jack would die at the end of the issue, and Michael LeRoi (from Acclaim comics and [more importantly] the Shadow Man video game) would be introduced, heading down the road to becoming the new Shadow Man, and not only would he be in control of the power, but he'd be a lot more likeable than Jack Boniface has been.

[Keith]

"Jack, this is your Loa..." No *SQUEE*, Sherlock.

I'll admit, I haven't read #2 and only breezed through #3 just to see the big finish. Ok, I get it. Going for a cliffhanger ending. Interesting choice, but I hope the feedback coming in prompts VEI to reassess the plan.

[Baramos]

I don't know why they published these. They'd have been better off just putting Shadowman on hiatus like they did with Eternal Warrior.

So will Shadowman be a villain now?

[KXXX]

I was hoping that Jack would die at the end of the issue, and Michael LeRoi (from Acclaim comics and [more importantly] the Shadow Man video game) would be introduced, heading down the road to becoming the new Shadow Man, and not only would he be in control of the power, but he'd be a lot more likeable than Jack Boniface has been.

[dornwolf]

So will Shadowman be a villain now?

Might as well they took a relatively blank character who merely needed some touching up to make you like him and kinda of made him a *SQUEE* who you ultimately don't give a damn about. I agree with everyone here kill Jack and bring in some one new maybe Max or as suggested the VH2 Shadowman or some form of trickery that redeem this

[kjjohanson]

It seems like Alyssa isn't quite out of the picture yet. Maybe she'll be promoted to a top-tier character.

[wallyj84]

I honestly don't know what to think of Shadowman. It had the best set up and storytelling engine of all the Valiant books, but the book has been an aimless mess since the second arc.

This should be an easy book to write. Why are such talented writers having trouble ith this title? It really boggles the mind.

[chriskay99]

I was really hoping Josiah would be the new Shadowman at the end. Would have provided some closure for Jack and allowed VEI to reset the title essentially.

I didn't hate this book and I must admit I'm kind of intrigued by the ending. Kind of like seeing how Anakin turns to the dark side in Episode III was interesting. I don't know. Maybe he'll just be a villain in other books but no other corner of VEI has intersected with the supernatural.

Felt like the lack of backgrounds was a little lazy, too?

Overall I'm still surprised how much this title's fallen short. The Zircher/Jordan preview pages they showed in advance of #1 had me so amp'ed up for the launch of this character in VEI. Aside from the back stories on Darque and Sandria I think it's come up short.

[GammaJosh]

I dug End Times #3 and am still interested in what Milligan has planned for Jack and/or the loa next.

There is some very strong drug addiction/alcoholism metaphor going on in this book, and I think the ending of this book opens up possibilities for some real drama and exploration of a lot of topics. What happens to an essentially good person after his addiction leads him to do something horrible? How does he bear that burden? How do others view and react to him? It may not be a good direction for a super-hero comic, but I don't think that's what Valiant is going for with Shadowman. It seems pretty clear that starting with #13 this is a dramatic horror book.

Also, if you start chronologically at #0, and end at End Times #3, the series is now bookended by Darque and Jack both killing their fathers. I was pretty sure that was how End Times would end, and had already been mulling over that symbolic link between Darque and Jack. Having Jack actually serve Darque sets Milligan up to explore that link.

Almost forgot, I'm psyched just to have Master Darque back on the board!

Soooo...did ANYONE else like End Times?

[KXXX]

It had the best set up and storytelling engine of all the Valiant books

Go home, you're drunk

Overall I'm still surprised how much this title's fallen short. The Zircher/Jordan preview pages they showed in advance of #1 had me so amp'ed up for the launch of this character in VEI.

This. Aside from the first few brilliant pages, this has been *SQUEE*.

I dug End Times #3 and am still interested in what Milligan has planned for Jack and/or the loa next.

There is some very strong drug addiction/alcoholism metaphor going on in this book... It may not be a good direction for a super-hero comic, but I don't think that's what Valiant is going for with Shadowman. It seems pretty clear that starting with #13 this is a dramatic horror book.

Also, if you start chronologically at #0, and end at End Times #3, the series is now bookended by Darque and Jack both killing their fathers. I was pretty sure that was how End Times would end, and had already been mulling over that symbolic link between Darque and Jack. Having Jack actually serve Darque sets Milligan up to explore that link.

Almost forgot, I'm psyched just to have Master Darque back on the board!

Soooo...did ANYONE else like End Times?

No, and I think you're reading too much into details that seem more like the results of a neglected book than sown seeds for future issues.

I'm really not trying to pick on anyone here, I'm just strongly disagreeing some of you. From the first issue, which included a goofy villain and the hysterical "I'm Shadowman" line (bookends? "This is your Loa, Jack."), this book has been all over the place. If I'm not mistaken, there was some skepticism from members of this board as to whether or not launching Shadowman when they did was the right choice. I think it's clear that the answer here is 'no.' It was a fifth title launched in the midst of four books, all of which were producing great arcs, and two of which were heading to a crossover. Brief moments of decency proved to be teasing underutilized ideas. Arcs fell apart. The character fell apart.

As I've said, the VH2/3 Shadowman (from the game) is what got me into Valiant, and I became a retroactive fan of the original. This love blossomed into full-blown fandom of both the old and new. To see this out of all the books start so low and just keep falling is heartbreak incarnate.

[GammaJosh]

It had the best set up and storytelling engine of all the Valiant books

Go home, you're drunk

Overall I'm still surprised how much this title's fallen short. The Zircher/Jordan preview pages they showed in advance of #1 had me so amp'ed up for the launch of this character in VEI.

This. Aside from the first few brilliant pages, this has been *SQUEE*.

I dug End Times #3 and am still interested in what Milligan has planned for Jack and/or the loa next.

There is some very strong drug addiction/alcoholism metaphor going on in this book... It may not be a good direction for a super-hero comic, but I don't think that's what Valiant is going for with Shadowman. It seems pretty clear that starting with #13 this is a dramatic horror book.

Also, if you start chronologically at #0, and end at End Times #3, the series is now bookended by Darque and Jack both killing their fathers. I was pretty sure that was how End Times would end, and had already been mulling over that symbolic link between Darque and Jack. Having Jack actually serve Darque sets Milligan up to explore that link.

Almost forgot, I'm psyched just to have Master Darque back on the board!

Soooo...did ANYONE else like End Times?

No, and I think you're reading too much into details that seem more like the results of a neglected book than sown seeds for future issues.

I'm really not trying to pick on anyone here, I'm just strongly disagreeing some of you. From the first issue, which included a goofy villain and the hysterical "I'm Shadowman" line (bookends? "This is your Loa, Jack."), this book has been all over the place. If I'm not mistaken, there was some skepticism from members of this board as to whether or not launching Shadowman when they did was the right choice. I think it's clear that the answer here is 'no.' It was a fifth title launched in the midst of four books, all of which were producing great arcs, and two of which were heading to a crossover. Brief moments of decency proved to be teasing underutilized ideas. Arcs fell apart. The character fell apart.

Couldn't disagree more. For me, this is the only Valiant book that has any real emotional weight to it. The rest of the books are just really good super-hero comics. I don't need another of those from Valiant, and I think it would be a shame to see Shadowman go that more traditional route before they let Milligan explore this direction a little further.

[GammaJosh]

It seems like Alyssa isn't quite out of the picture yet. Maybe she'll be promoted to a top-tier character.

Alyssa is a badass and a character that I liked right off the bat. I would love an arc where she turns around and tries to bring Jack back from the Darque side (see what I did there? )

[bygranddesign]

I think GammaJosh makes some good points

I think the premise had potential and I think there was some interesting insights into the characters

But overall - I'm sorry to say - it was pretty disappointing.

Many of the things that happened didn't feel believable. Character motivations weren't explained well enough and lacked conviction. Why is Jack/Shadowman reviving Master Darque before turning over every stone possible first? It's like being stranded on a deserted island with your friends and resorting to cannibalism within an hour.

And then Master Darque makes Jack his *SQUEE* ... I actually kind of like this premise but once again it just felt tacked on. It didn't feel beleviable ... And rushed. What's his hold over Jack? His pain? I just wish that was explained a little more carefully and thoughtfully.

I actually like the premise though .... If Shadowman becomes a villain character that interweaves through different storylines across the universe - That's actually a pretty decent way of "resetting" the character before eventually rebooting the title.

I do think that RDLT could have enhanced this storyline and made it much more enjoyable. The art was pretty bland. And the dialogue was at best bland ... And in some spots just plain atrocious.

I also wish Sandria would have been mentioned a little bit more in this mini - her magic is what binded the LOA to the Boniface's - and it was done in part to protect them from Master Darque. Wouldn't killing Master Darque release the Boniface's from the curse of the Loa? Also is Sandria still around? Maybe she could have freed Jack of the spell since her brother was "dead"? She is a character thread that has been left hanging for too long

It wasn't a great mini - but I do think some seeds were planted that had promise.

I also think the scenes with Alyssa were pretty good ... And wouldn't mind seeing more of her.

[ilzuccone]

I neither hated or loved this issue. kinda a middle of the road type book.

[kjjohanson]

Many of the things that happened didn't feel believable. Character motivations weren't explained well enough and lacked conviction. Why is Jack/Shadowman reviving Master Darque before turning over every stone possible first? It's like being stranded on a deserted island with your friends and resorting to cannibalism within an hour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krHu4E65khA&feature=kp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Captain Craig]

What exactly was this the END of? Who/Whose or What Time was ENDING?
Jack's time as Shadowman didn't end? There was no city/national/global threat that could've ended. End Time??
Shadowman End Times should just have been told as issues #17-19 as it didn't serve as a jumping on point. I actually continued the story with Josiah as has been told in the ongoing. Josiah appears in issue #16 then we jump to the mini? Everything w/Alyssa is contained in the ongoing. Jack dumping her means nothing to anyone who hasn't read the issues in the ongoing. Never mind their "love arc" felt forced when it could've been much more organic.
People who pick up a mini are looking for a clean, self contained try out story and this was neither. What a cluster of management on this title and decisions made.

Based on the dialogue boxes I don't clearly see a way to even say that the Loa was influencing Jack at all. In the past we've gotten that to know the Loa is needling him, not here. He just goes off on a childish temper tantrum not even attempting to listen to Josiah's explanation. He kills his father(or so it seems) and now is what, an apprentice of Darque?

The art is very mediocre as well.

Ok, so where do we go from here? Do I care?

• *There were mentions made of "changes" to come(or something to that wording). Changes to what purpose, the Loa?
  *Josiah made mention of still possessing some of Darque's magical mojo power. He's proven to be a planner. I'm actually hoping Josiah isn't dead, that he prepared for such an encounter and used the Darque power to fake his death. He maybe the only one that can redeem Jack(if that's possible).
  *Alyssa is someone I do want to see again, not sure if it's in this book. Maybe in Dr.Mirage perhaps? Still, she and Punk Mambo appear to perhaps be aligned to "shake Jack out of it".

Just such a frustrating title. I yearn for the greatness this character had. It's actually slipped under Q&W for me and that's saying something as I had such a low bar for that title not being a fan in the first place.

[GammaJosh]

I thought it was pretty clear that Jack was basically out of his right mind by the end of the story. He had already not recognized Alyssa, tried to commit suicide, and resurrected his arch enemy. It also seemed clear that Jack was about to have mercy on his father, and it was the loa that put Jack over the edge at the final moment.

While I still find Jack sympathetic, even if someone else doesn't find him sympathetic or heroic...so what? Does he have to be a hero? I hope he will be eventually, but honestly it's really not important if the story is good. I have seen plenty of great movies about terrible, unsympathetic characters.

I do agree that everything from #13 through End Times #3 felt a little too compact, especially the love story and subsequent breakup of Jack and Alyssa, and the defeat of Tremble back in #16. An extra 3 or 4 issues in there to expand the story would have been nice.

I'd also agree that the art could have been better. Valentine de Landro may not have been the best choice, and I feel like I even detected a drop in the quality of his work between issue #2 and #3. I'm fine with his storytelling chops, just not a huge fan of his style, and his faces are a little mushy. I agree End Times might have been much more powerful with RDLT on pencils.

[greg]

In Unity #5, we get the backstory on Silk... which includes a Shadowwoman who was described as "a psychopathic personality left unchecked".

Shadowman being a bad guy might be a first, but only because last time it was a bad girl.

[KXXX]

It had the best set up and storytelling engine of all the Valiant books

Go home, you're drunk

Overall I'm still surprised how much this title's fallen short. The Zircher/Jordan preview pages they showed in advance of #1 had me so amp'ed up for the launch of this character in VEI.

This. Aside from the first few brilliant pages, this has been *SQUEE*.

I dug End Times #3 and am still interested in what Milligan has planned for Jack and/or the loa next.

There is some very strong drug addiction/alcoholism metaphor going on in this book... It may not be a good direction for a super-hero comic, but I don't think that's what Valiant is going for with Shadowman. It seems pretty clear that starting with #13 this is a dramatic horror book.

Also, if you start chronologically at #0, and end at End Times #3, the series is now bookended by Darque and Jack both killing their fathers. I was pretty sure that was how End Times would end, and had already been mulling over that symbolic link between Darque and Jack. Having Jack actually serve Darque sets Milligan up to explore that link.

Almost forgot, I'm psyched just to have Master Darque back on the board!

Soooo...did ANYONE else like End Times?

No, and I think you're reading too much into details that seem more like the results of a neglected book than sown seeds for future issues.

I'm really not trying to pick on anyone here, I'm just strongly disagreeing some of you. From the first issue, which included a goofy villain and the hysterical "I'm Shadowman" line (bookends? "This is your Loa, Jack."), this book has been all over the place. If I'm not mistaken, there was some skepticism from members of this board as to whether or not launching Shadowman when they did was the right choice. I think it's clear that the answer here is 'no.' It was a fifth title launched in the midst of four books, all of which were producing great arcs, and two of which were heading to a crossover. Brief moments of decency proved to be teasing underutilized ideas. Arcs fell apart. The character fell apart.

Couldn't disagree more. For me, this is the only Valiant book that has any real emotional weight to it. The rest of the books are just really good super-hero comics. I don't need another of those from Valiant, and I think it would be a shame to see Shadowman go that more traditional route before they let Milligan explore this direction a little further.

This book has been RIFE with super-hero cliches. The emotional 'weight' has been forced lately and the character from the beginning has made little sense. Even the Milligan 'reboot' fell apart almost immediately. Maybe there's something here that's resonating with you, but all I see are Saturday morning cartoon worthy story elements and two dimensional characters.

Harbinger has had some pretty realistic and heavy emotional moments (Torque 'rescuing' himself? Have you no feels?) throughout the series.

[jmatt]

I was really hoping Josiah would be the new Shadowman at the end. Would have provided some closure for Jack and allowed VEI to reset the title essentially.

I didn't hate this book and I must admit I'm kind of intrigued by the ending. ...

Felt like the lack of backgrounds was a little lazy, too?

I feel the same way. The art was no great shakes (facial expressions were okay, the posing was less so). Backgrounds were non-existent. Kind of a shame our first peek at the pantheon was weak, artistically.

But I was onboard with the unfolding tale, thinking we'd see Josiah regain the mantle. But like you, I can see possibilities with Jack having to deal with and eventually break free from Darque. This issue was better than the last, for me.

It's like being stranded on a deserted island with your friends and resorting to cannibalism within an hour.

You know Dunlow is first on the menu, right?

"Alright, fellas, it looks like were stranded. Gather supplies and reconnoiter the area, we may be here for awhile."

"Hey jmatt, I think I see coconut trees in that direction... they better not be Canadian coconut trees, you know how much I hate those guys..."

BLAMMM!

"Gentlemen, lunch is served."

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

BOOOOOO-URNS!

This just plain sucked. the whole arc. The Zircher/Jordan work was better. Even issues 11-13 were better.

[Phoenix8008]

BOOOOOO-URNS!

This just plain sucked. the whole arc. The Zircher/Jordan work was better. Even issues 11-13 were better.

Wow! I don't know if I'd say 11-13 were better. Let's not get too excited here.

[JonesyAZ]

While the Shadowman book has certainly been the weakest title for Valiant for some time now, I read this issue last night and wasn't that disappointed...at least not as much as some of you guys were. I actually enjoyed the artwork's simpler presentation (with some strong color choices by Mr. Baron) and I also was surprised by the ending. I thought the ending was a bit too brutal and felt forced like what you guys are saying, but it still does offer some new story possibilities with Jack being Darque's [redacted]!

I will say that I am glad Shadowman is going on a break because it does need it. Hopefully if/when Valiant returns to the title that the creators involved will "jazz" it up some