Shadowman: End Times #3 Discussion

[wallyj84]

It had the best set up and storytelling engine of all the Valiant books

Go home, you're drunk

Drunk? I'm barely even tipsy.

I stick by what I wrote. Outside of Archer and Armstrong, which is equal to Shadowman in this regard, Shadowman had the best basic setup and story telling engine out of all the valiant titles.

I'll let John Seavey explain what a storytelling is, "when creating an open-ended series, you include a variety of different elements that act to help the writer in generating ideas for stories; each of these elements can be seen as a component in a 'storytelling engine'."

Let's look at some of story elements of Shadowman. The basic concept, man with super powers fights supernatural threats, is very strong and open to any number of story possibilities. The lead is that classic reluctant hero burdened with responsibility that he didn't want or ask for. That is a bit cliche, but cliches work. That's why they're so common. The supporting cast had a wise old mentor and a brash sidekick/love interest. Those two should have been a great source for humor and conflict. It was set in New Orleans which was perfect for a horror story. It had a great main antagonist in Darque, but the supernatural setting opened up the possibility of fighting a variety of monsters and magical threats. These elements, if used properly, could have been used to create hundreds of great stories. But, for whatever reason they just weren't.

What makes it so sad is that even though the stories are bad if you look close enough you can see the strength of Shadowman's engine. The ideas that have been presented throughout the run of this book have been pretty good, but the execution has been shockingly bad.

[Dallow Spicer1]

...aaaand I'm done with Shadowman! End times killed off my optimism for the new direction. I'm not sure what will happen to the book in the future but I can't see me picking it back up.

That said, Bloodshot (minus) HC looks like it might improve again so I'll use the money I save from Shadowman to start buying Bloodshot again!

[grendeljd]

...aaaand I'm done with Shadowman! End times killed off my optimism for the new direction. I'm not sure what will happen to the book in the future but I can't see me picking it back up.

That said, Bloodshot (minus) HC looks like it might improve again so I'll use the money I save from Shadowman to start buying Bloodshot again!

Well, there's a silver lining in there then...

Are you interested in trying out the Doctor Mirage book in September? See what's planned for the only active title set in the supernatural corner of the Valiant U?

[Dallow Spicer1]

...aaaand I'm done with Shadowman! End times killed off my optimism for the new direction. I'm not sure what will happen to the book in the future but I can't see me picking it back up.

That said, Bloodshot (minus) HC looks like it might improve again so I'll use the money I save from Shadowman to start buying Bloodshot again!

Well, there's a silver lining in there then...

Are you interested in trying out the Doctor Mirage book in September? See what's planned for the only active title set in the supernatural corner of the Valiant U?

Yes I am interested in Dr Mirage, but I'm in 2 minds weather to wait for the trade or buy single issues? I usually buy single issues but if it's just a mini series I might go the TPB option, plus I'm not sure if the Dr Mirage character is strong enough for it's own book and I didn't think the appearance in Shadowman was all that strong?

[VEI Reborn]

In Unity #5, we get the backstory on Silk... which includes a Shadowwoman who was described as "a psychopathic personality left unchecked".

Shadowman being a bad guy might be a first, but only because last time it was a bad girl.

[grendeljd]

...aaaand I'm done with Shadowman! End times killed off my optimism for the new direction. I'm not sure what will happen to the book in the future but I can't see me picking it back up.

That said, Bloodshot (minus) HC looks like it might improve again so I'll use the money I save from Shadowman to start buying Bloodshot again!

Well, there's a silver lining in there then...

Are you interested in trying out the Doctor Mirage book in September? See what's planned for the only active title set in the supernatural corner of the Valiant U?

Yes I am interested in Dr Mirage, but I'm in 2 minds weather to wait for the trade or buy single issues? I usually buy single issues but if it's just a mini series I might go the TPB option, plus I'm not sure if the Dr Mirage character is strong enough for it's own book and I didn't think the appearance in Shadowman was all that strong?

I agree with you on that, but this mini should hopefully expand on her potential. Personally I will be buying it monthly, but I can understand the appeal of getting the tpb instead.

[ValiantCentral]

So first post here (Hi!), and it just so happens to be on the last book I picked up, but I will say that I kinda dug the mini. The ongoing was plagued with issues which is a real shame, and considering the quality of the rest of the books I don't know what happened. I really think Milligan was brought on to reboot the character but had to tie some loose ends from Jordan's run on the book. End Times marks just that end, and allows Valiant to completely renew the character and bring him in closer to the rest of the universe.

In a Twitter conversation about this whole issue I was having today, Dinesh replied with "Perfect setting for what happens next," so I'm guessing we will be seeing tons more of Shadowman soon, just not how we'd all expect. The Dr Silk/Shadowman (woman actually) scene was mentioned in a previous post so that's one direction. I don't know if I'd like to see Shadowman (or again, woman...maybe Alyssa?) as an ongoing character but wouldn't mind the character popping in and out of the book. We'll just have to wait and see, and really, I just hope we get AT LEAST a Master Darque miniseries out of this whole thing.

[GammaJosh]

Hi ValiantCentral!

I would flip over a Shadowman-centric event/crossover on the scale of Armor Hunters, with Darque and Jack threatening the Earth, other heroes teaming up to stop them, and Jack eventually breaking ties with Darque (or even being killed or stripped of the loa and replaced with a new Shadowman). Would be a cool way to bring the supernatural corner of the Valiant universe into the rest of the books' orbits, and a bold statement that Shadowman is and will remain one of the company's flagship characters/properties.

[lorddunlow]

First of all, I just want to clarify - there was no issue #11. They stopped right from #10 to #12. Now that we cleared that up...

Wow. The only explanation for this series is that it's not really produced by VEI. This book is almost as bad as the second arc of Quantum and Woody. And that is solely due to Ming Doyle being as bad as she is.

I hate Jack so much now, that I found myself rooting for Darque. I actually hope they just make a book centered around him.

The art - ugh.

Oh, and thanks, jmatt, for eating me - jerk.

ValiantCentral - welcome to the boards. It's fun here if you steer clear of the Canadians.

[Bl00dsh0t]

Im still trying to understand why Jack would want to kill his father after discovering his death was a falsehood. I get that he's upset but his father was Shadowman, did fight Darque, and by all accounts was 'good'. Jacks rationale wasn't conveyed with any real conviction IMHO.

[Bl00dsh0t]

Oh, and the art. It was so poor especially when you compare it to the first arc for instance. Just felt lazy.

[Keith]

Hi ValiantCentral!

I would flip over a Shadowman-centric event/crossover on the scale of Armor Hunters, with Darque and Jack threatening the Earth, other heroes teaming up to stop them, and Jack eventually breaking ties with Darque (or even being killed or stripped of the loa and replaced with a new Shadowman). Would be a cool way to bring the supernatural corner of the Valiant universe into the rest of the books' orbits, and a bold statement that Shadowman is and will remain one of the company's flagship characters/properties.

+1 to the above, but I'd also ask for a solid artist on that... Diego Bernard is killing it on X-O, let's see what he can do with the darker corners of the valiant universe.

[leonmallett]

Disappointing.

Shadowman was my favourite character from the VH1 stable, and one that has such a simple premise that I felt and still feel that producing a good book with him is eminently possible.

But this mini has disappointed me. I understand VEI likes the notion of pitching its heroes into the 'grey area', yet increasingly I think they step past that grey area and end up as not even anti-heroes. I see a lot of descent into darkness, but not enough redemption.

Everything about Jack's fall from grace felt rushed; the love story, the turn of his search for his father to have him so filled with anger or hate that he kills him; the twisting of the mythos; the added back-story; etc.

The cliffhanger was a metaphor for the potential of the series: effectively destroyed sorry to say. Maybe VEI have some grand plan to turn this around, and I hope they do, but will they have made the journey to get there worthwhile?

The one thing I did enjoy was the encounter between Josiah and the masks representing the Loa pantheon - a cool touch and a good way to handle that, so kudos to the creators for that.

[apainter]

One thing I'm curious about is Josiah's plan to free Jack from the loa. The ending could be "we didn't see what we thought we saw", and Jack "killing" Josiah was just part of that plan.

Shadowman is probably my least favorite Valiant book, but I'm not feeling all the hate 90% of the posters here feel.

Art

[leonmallett]

One thing I'm curious about is Josiah's plan to free Jack from the loa. The ending could be "we didn't see what we thought we saw", and Jack "killing" Josiah was just part of that plan.

That could very well be the case, but if so, it is a hell of a cliffhanger, and it begs the question why go on apparent hiatus before resolving it?

On a broader note, there were hints at a change in positioning for the character as a consequence of End Times, and my concern is that in re-positioning Jack as they have done, VEI erode a little more the wider sense of heroism within the VALIANT universe. Shadowman has a great adversary in Darque, so orchestrating Jack's descent into arguable villainy or at least a much darker place, seems a little redundant to me.

[agent_graves]

Been getting caught up on a few books, this issue being one of them, at this point , I just wish they'd let Justin Jordan follow up on the events of #0 & #10, those are still the best issue's so far, the creative team switch didn't work, story wise, it's even more convoluted at this point...

It's unfortunate because, the creative team, needs to change again...

[bygranddesign]

Many of the things that happened didn't feel believable. Character motivations weren't explained well enough and lacked conviction. Why is Jack/Shadowman reviving Master Darque before turning over every stone possible first? It's like being stranded on a deserted island with your friends and resorting to cannibalism within an hour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krHu4E65khA&feature=kp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lol .. I was thinking of a southpark episode

But that was pretty good also

[bygranddesign]

It's like being stranded on a deserted island with your friends and resorting to cannibalism within an hour.

You know Dunlow is first on the menu, right?

"Alright, fellas, it looks like were stranded. Gather supplies and reconnoiter the area, we may be here for awhile."

"Hey jmatt, I think I see coconut trees in that direction... they better not be Canadian coconut trees, you know how much I hate those guys..."

BLAMMM!

"Gentlemen, lunch is served."

[Shadowman99]

It seems like Alyssa isn't quite out of the picture yet. Maybe she'll be promoted to a top-tier character.

Y'know, about a year ago I heard that VEI had plans to kill Alyssa off along with Dox. Dox obviously snuffed it, but looks like VEI changed its mind about Alyssa. I can't see her ever being more than a support character though, she's just not that interesting.

I was really hoping Josiah would be the new Shadowman at the end. Would have provided some closure for Jack and allowed VEI to reset the title essentially.

The opportunity was certainly there wasn't it? Unless something awesome comes from this Shad/Darque team-up one way or another, I'm going to find myself wondering why the reset switch hadn't been pulled right there.

There is some very strong drug addiction/alcoholism metaphor going on in this book...

Don't know man. I see the theme more as 'trying to overcome internal struggle' generally. Maybe your addiction interpretation is just a bit too specific for me.

...the VH2/3 Shadowman (from the game) is what got me into Valiant, and I became a retroactive fan of the original. This love blossomed into full-blown fandom of both the old and new. To see this out of all the books start so low and just keep falling is heartbreak incarnate.

This.

...this is the only Valiant book that has any real emotional weight to it.

Hm, yeah, there's been 'emotion' in it, but doesn't a lot of it seem just a bit... off? Or forced? I won't knock Jordan or Milligan's attempts at emotional delivery here, but I think for the most part it hasn't really worked. Even the most genuine emotional part, where Jack discovers Josiah is still alive, whilst it started out believable and good, went foul when Jack irrationally decided that the only solution was to kill his dad. I mean, really?

As for letting Milligan explore further, personally I've found his pacing far too slow, and the constant repetition of the 'dream fight' just ended up getting on my nerves. How many times do I need to see that?




As much as I've had faith in Valiant turning this ship around successfully to date, unfortunately I'm really starting to wonder that perhaps it's time for some kind of complete re-boot, restarting from scratch and taking the comic in a different direction. The title's had problems since the start, but whilst I'm sure Milligan's done his best to patch up a leaky boat here, it's done nothing to increase my waning enthusiasm for the character. All I can say is that unless VEI just reboot the series, I can only hope that this Shadowman/Darque team up results in some kind of new direction for the book that's delivered with conviction, because if it doesn't, it'll be the very first title that I'll have to consider dropping.

Sorry VEI, I've been supportive of the title so far, but this book needs to start drastically improving, or end.

And as for Dinesh saying "Perfect setting for what happens next", well, he has to have some belief in the title, otherwise his only other true option is to consider axing it. The question is, he and the editors must have had to have had belief in the title already, and what has it accomplished?

[Watchtower]

So I only just caught myself up with End Times, having been overseas for a couple of months. Thus this post will be more about the mini as a whole.

Let's just get this out of the way: the art is atrocious. Bland backgrounds, little to no details, inconsistent anatomy, and half the time Jack looks like he's turning into a monkey. I can't tell just how much De Landro is to blame, but whoever is really needs to not be involved with the Valiant books until he/she gets his/her *SQUEE* together.

As for the story itself...I really have no idea what's going on anymore. Josiah comes across as a stupid a-hole, Alyssa continues to be Too Dumb To Live, Jaunty and the Punk Mambo are just kinda there, and this whole "corruption to darkness" route Jack's going through really doesn't work. It's too sporadic, both within the arc itself and when compared to the previous arc, which was entirely on Jack embracing his inner demons and growing stronger from it. Hilariously, the only one to maintain some semblance of dignity is Darque, who basically gets a win without having to actually do anything.

Now, that all said, I'm not the hugest fan of a reboot. It would certainly be simple to do, given how disconnected it has been from the rest of the Valiant Universe, but that kind of "torch everything and pretend it never happened" attitude is the kind of thing that made DC's Nu-52 such a mess. That, and I feel that Milligan has actually done a decent job trying to expand the details of the lore. Best course of action would probably be to take the Al Simmons route and make Jack a full-on villain, and give the Shadowman name to someone else. Maybe bring in Mike Leroi or something like that, but Jack's become too corrupted to keep being the protagonist at this point.

[GammaJosh]

Jack's become too corrupted to keep being the protagonist at this point.

Someone used Breaking Bad as an example earlier and I'd bring that up again here. Even if Jack turns into a full on villain, the series could still be killer.

Granted that the entire series has been really rushed since #13 all the way up through End Times #3, and the art on End Times was not great, I'm getting the distinct impression that most people are just butt-hurt that Shadowman is not a straight-up super-hero, and his character has been called into question. Personally, I'm digging the trippy horror vibe, and would be quite content to see Jack running around hunting down other rebel loa. They'd better not switch gears before we get to see Ghost Train and Mighty *SQUEE*!

(Since when is W.H.O.R.E. a squee-able word?)

[lorddunlow]

(Since when is W.H.O.R.E. a squee-able word?)

Isn't that kind of the point of one?

[GammaJosh]

(Since when is W.H.O.R.E. a squee-able word?)

Isn't that kind of the point of one?

[Shadowman99]

Personally, I'm digging the trippy horror vibe, and would be quite content to see Jack running around hunting down other rebel loa. They'd better not switch gears before we get to see Ghost Train and Mighty *SQUEE*!

(Since when is W.H.O.R.E. a squee-able word?)

Yeah man, I'd love to see these two characters that have only been mentioned so far

I remember in the buildup to End Times Milligan was quoted repeatedly, when asked what the series was going to be about, giving mainly a coy "Poor, poor Jack..." Not really sure what this was supposed to mean retrospectively. Perhaps it was because he knew he'd *SQUEE* the character and comic into becoming a jumbled mess.

*Sigh...* I dunno. I still have a vague hope that VEI will one day make Shadowman the quality comic that I always hoped it would be, but how they're going to make that happen by continuing with this particular Jack Boniface I don't really know. I'm sure it's possible, but I'm getting pretty tired of waiting for it to happen now. And to think, it was originally on the strength of VH2 Shadowman that I gained an interest in Valiant in the first place. Shame VEI's just hasn't got into gear yet.

[lorddunlow]

Perhaps it was because he knew he'd *SQUEE* the character and comic into becoming a jumbled mess.