The Beginning of the End?

[Phoenix8008]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

The variants' retention of or increase in value is not really a reward unless you're planning to sell them though, is it? I'm pretty sure most people on this board are holding onto their Valiant collectables, not planning to sell them. The only benefit I see of the values going up is some kind of satisfaction that you got a good buy. To me, it makes no difference if the value goes up. I'm seeking out the variant because I think it looks cool or the fact that it's rare activates the OCD collector lobe of my brain!

I think your definition of collectable is my definition of a good investment. I think you'd have to be crazy to invest in comics! If comics are an important part of your investment portfolio...seek professional advice! Of course I do like it when the value goes up on something I bought, but there's really no tangible benefit there. I know with relative certainty that my collection will be sold off, probably at a fraction of what I paid for it, either in my final years or by friends or family after I die. (My girlfriend's brother had a great test that he used on all her previous boyfriends: if their life-savings was measured in Star Wars action figures, he didn't want them dating her!)

Well, anytime you want to invest in something that will "marginally retain value", I'm your man. Just send me your money and I will send most of it back to you in 5 years, no questions asked....

Let me put it this way...Why should I buy something today when I can buy it for 25-50% of the price 30 days from now? This is what VEI has going right now, and it is not the kind of "collectability" that they need. How many times are you going to buy the new limited statue the day it comes out when 30 days later you see it for sale for half the original price?

You are correct - no one should buy comics (or statues) as an investment. The reward doesn't come when selling something for more than you paid, the reward is having something other people want, something in demand. That usually translates to monetary value, but not always, this is true.

If it bothers you that much to buy the variants when they're new and then see the 'value' go down a month or two later... then maybe you should wait a month or two in order to start buying them. Then you can feel better that you got a good deal and are still supporting VEI. Win, win!

[ckb]

Well, anytime you want to invest in something that will "marginally retain value", I'm your man. Just send me your money and I will send most of it back to you in 5 years, no questions asked....

Let me put it this way...Why should I buy something today when I can buy it for 25-50% of the price 30 days from now? This is what VEI has going right now, and it is not the kind of "collectability" that they need. How many times are you going to buy the new limited statue the day it comes out when 30 days later you see it for sale for half the original price?

You are correct - no one should buy comics (or statues) as an investment. The reward doesn't come when selling something for more than you paid, the reward is having something other people want, something in demand. That usually translates to monetary value, but not always, this is true.

If it bothers you that much to buy the variants when they're new and then see the 'value' go down a month or two later... then maybe you should wait a month or two in order to start buying them. Then you can feel better that you got a good deal and are still supporting VEI. Win, win!

Not to worry, I stopped buying them altogether for a number of reasons. I would start picking them up again if I could find the old ones I need in the $5-$20 range in person.

Also, I don't see buying a 1:50 variant for $30 that a store owner had to pay $200 to get as supporting VEI. The only way you support VEI is buying it at ~$100. Every store's calculus is different based on how many they sell, of course. But in the situation we are discussing - orders for regular books that have little chance of being sold and are only being made to reach a threshold, it applies.

[BugsySig]

This thread blows...

Where's Frank when you need him to spice things up? Or Kurt Busiek for that matter?

Someone get Charty on the phone! We need a poorly constructed visual representation of VEIs sales data!

[Shadowman99]

This thread blows...

Where's Frank when you need him to spice things up? Or Kurt Busiek for that matter?

Someone get Charty on the phone! We need a poorly constructed visual representation of VEIs sales data!

He will live on forever in our sigs...

Well, until we get bored of that joke and change them

[lorddunlow]

Not silent. Preparing. About to see us deliver a series of right hooks.

We've been massively successful - every single book has been a commercial and critical hit. Valiant 2014 is all about using that foundation of success to double our game.

I guess we now see the right hooks:

http://www.nerdist.com/2014/02/exclusiv ... Z8.twitter

[Chiclo]

6 books in 6 months. Frell. How many books are being cancelled going into this?

At first this seems like a bad idea but Valiant has been firing on all cylinders so far and I trust that they know what they are doing.

[IMJ]

6 books in 6 months. Frell. How many books are being cancelled going into this?

At first this seems like a bad idea but Valiant has been firing on all cylinders so far and I trust that they know what they are doing.

I'm actually pretty confused as to what's been considered an ongoing and what's cancelled and whatnot. It seems that Archer and Armstrong and Q&W books are cancelled... at what issue?

I thought Shadowman was cancelled, but it's continuing as a series of mini series (one of my biggest pet peeves in comics - I've always viewed those "safe" moves by a publisher as a historic notice of waning problems).

Rai looks great - I'll buy that one for as long as it's first volume lasts. If it's a mini series or goes the mini route I'll drop it.

I've got several months worth of Valiant back reading to do, so maybe that will help, but basically my philosophy nowadays is to buy ongoings and not Acclaim-style mini series.

[tchalla8]

6 books in 6 months. Frell. How many books are being cancelled going into this?

At first this seems like a bad idea but Valiant has been firing on all cylinders so far and I trust that they know what they are doing.

I'm actually pretty confused as to what's been considered an ongoing and what's cancelled and whatnot. It seems that Archer and Armstrong and Q&W books are cancelled... at what issue?

I thought Shadowman was cancelled, but it's continuing as a series of mini series (one of my biggest pet peeves in comics - I've always viewed those "safe" moves by a publisher as a historic notice of waning problems).

Rai looks great - I'll buy that one for as long as it's first volume lasts. If it's a mini series or goes the mini route I'll drop it.

I've got several months worth of Valiant back reading to do, so maybe that will help, but basically my philosophy nowadays is to buy ongoings and not Acclaim-style mini series.

If RDLT has time for Dr Mirage it sure seems like Shadowman is drifting off into oblivion. So much for the new creative team.

[lorddunlow]

6 books in 6 months. Frell. How many books are being cancelled going into this?

At first this seems like a bad idea but Valiant has been firing on all cylinders so far and I trust that they know what they are doing.

I'm actually pretty confused as to what's been considered an ongoing and what's cancelled and whatnot. It seems that Archer and Armstrong and Q&W books are cancelled... at what issue?

I thought Shadowman was cancelled, but it's continuing as a series of mini series (one of my biggest pet peeves in comics - I've always viewed those "safe" moves by a publisher as a historic notice of waning problems).

Rai looks great - I'll buy that one for as long as it's first volume lasts. If it's a mini series or goes the mini route I'll drop it.

I've got several months worth of Valiant back reading to do, so maybe that will help, but basically my philosophy nowadays is to buy ongoings and not Acclaim-style mini series.

If RDLT has time for Dr Mirage it sure seems like Shadowman is drifting off into oblivion. So much for the new creative team.

I'm not so sure if that's the case.

[bygranddesign]

Rai and Doctor Mirage have been confirmed to be ongoing

The Armor Hunters is a cross over and it seems like instead of crossing over to the existing ongoing for Bloodshot and Harbinger .. they created instead multiple mini-series involving Armor Hunters.

I think from a marketing and even a creative stand point it makes sense

You can create multiple self contained TPB's

Armor Hunters Mini
Amor Hunters: Bloodshot
Armor Hunters: Harbinger

And maybe collect them all in a Hard Cover Deluxe at some point

[BugsySig]

6 books in 6 months. Frell. How many books are being cancelled going into this?

At first this seems like a bad idea but Valiant has been firing on all cylinders so far and I trust that they know what they are doing.

I'm actually pretty confused as to what's been considered an ongoing and what's cancelled and whatnot. It seems that Archer and Armstrong and Q&W books are cancelled... at what issue?

I thought Shadowman was cancelled, but it's continuing as a series of mini series (one of my biggest pet peeves in comics - I've always viewed those "safe" moves by a publisher as a historic notice of waning problems).

Rai looks great - I'll buy that one for as long as it's first volume lasts. If it's a mini series or goes the mini route I'll drop it.

I've got several months worth of Valiant back reading to do, so maybe that will help, but basically my philosophy nowadays is to buy ongoings and not Acclaim-style mini series.

If RDLT has time for Dr Mirage it sure seems like Shadowman is drifting off into oblivion. So much for the new creative team.

Dino says Milligan has 12-18 months of Shadowman plans already scripted out.

8-10 titles per month for the foreseeable future...

These are the definites based on the Newsarama interview with Warren and Dino (doesn't include the Armor Hunters mini):

XO
Unity
Harbinger (will continue after Armor Hunters: Harbinger)
Eternal Warrior
Rai
Doctor Mirage (on-going confirmed by Dino on twitter)
Shadowman (continuing in some form)

That's 7 definites, 8 including Armor Hunters, 9 including Armor Hunters: Bloodshot, 10 including The Delinquents.

No confirmation yet, but Archer & Armstrong and Quantum & Woody are likely to continue separately after The Delinquents. It's possible they could continue to share the book in some way, or A&A continues while Q&W is replaced with Q2. That would keep it at 8 or 9.

Then there are more announcements to come for October. This could be what form Shadowman will be taking, the splitting of Bloodshot & HARD Corps and/or some other new title(s). That would put it between 9 and 10.

[bygranddesign]

If RDLT has time for Dr Mirage it sure seems like Shadowman is drifting off into oblivion. So much for the new creative team.

In the article it says Milligan has 12-18 months of stories he has already planned for Shadowman

So Milligan as long term writer is still in tact - we just don't know if it will be collection of mini-series or a relaunch or they go back to the regular numbering (after end times)

And VEI having rotating artists on a title from arc to arc shouldn't be a surprise

I'm just happy RDLT will continue his work for Valiant - And I think he will do an incredible job with Dr. Mirage

[Tannerman]

If RDLT has time for Dr Mirage it sure seems like Shadowman is drifting off into oblivion. So much for the new creative team.

"Shamdasani confirmed that Peter Milligan has plans for another “12-18 months” of Shadowman beyond the “End Times” mini-series, however." Source

[lorddunlow]

6 books in 6 months. Frell. How many books are being cancelled going into this?

At first this seems like a bad idea but Valiant has been firing on all cylinders so far and I trust that they know what they are doing.

I'm actually pretty confused as to what's been considered an ongoing and what's cancelled and whatnot. It seems that Archer and Armstrong and Q&W books are cancelled... at what issue?

I thought Shadowman was cancelled, but it's continuing as a series of mini series (one of my biggest pet peeves in comics - I've always viewed those "safe" moves by a publisher as a historic notice of waning problems).

Rai looks great - I'll buy that one for as long as it's first volume lasts. If it's a mini series or goes the mini route I'll drop it.

I've got several months worth of Valiant back reading to do, so maybe that will help, but basically my philosophy nowadays is to buy ongoings and not Acclaim-style mini series.

If RDLT has time for Dr Mirage it sure seems like Shadowman is drifting off into oblivion. So much for the new creative team.

Dino says Milligan has 12-18 months of Shadowman plans already scripted out.

8-10 titles per month for the foreseeable future...

These are the definites based on the Newsarama interview with Warren and Dino (doesn't include the Armor Hunters mini):

XO
Unity
Harbinger (will continue after Armor Hunters: Harbinger)
Eternal Warrior
Rai
Doctor Mirage (on-going confirmed by Dino on twitter)
Shadowman (continuing in some form)

That's 7 definites, 8 including Armor Hunters, 9 including Armor Hunters: Bloodshot.

No confirmation yet, but Archer & Armstrong and Quantum & Woody are likely to continue separately after The Delinquents. It's possible they could continue to share the book in some way, or A&A continues while Q&W is replaced with Q2. That would keep it at 8 or 9.

Then there are more announcements to come for October. This could be what form Shadowman will be taking, the splitting of Bloodshot & HARD Corps and/or some other new title(s). That would put it between 9 and 10.

I agree with BugsySig.

[xodacia81]

To qoute a certain former writer at the original company....Valiant is not an independent. They are a new major. Yes, that takes time and patience. So far more than good.

[Shadowman99]

This is monumental.

I'm really excited about it all really. One minor reserve that I have is that I've never been very interested in sci-fi and it looks like I'm going to be getting a lot of it from Valiant this year, but I read XO in the hardback collection and thought it was great, so I don't even have that *NOOGIES* any more.

Have been less than enthusiastic about the 4001 universe up until now, but (although I know Crain won't draw the book alone for more than perhaps the first issue) just the look of the universe really hooks my attention. Can't wait to give a Rai#1 lettered preview a read.

Happy to see Doc Mirage appearing in her own spooky new title and am keen to find out more about this massive Armour Hunters crossover.

Not too sure what the company's plan is regarding the continuation of some of its lines after this has all blown over, but I really think that Valiant's looking stronger than ever

[lorddunlow]

so I don't even have that *NOOGIES* any more.

Is the NOOGIES some weird board censorship, or do I need a British-American translation?

[Shadowman99]

so I don't even have that *NOOGIES* any more.

Is the NOOGIES some weird board censorship, or do I need a British-American translation?

Haha, yeah, it's a weird board auto-censor that I didn't even notice!

Seriously, "What do you want to read first?" has suddenly become a very apt question!

[lorddunlow]

so I don't even have that *NOOGIES* any more.

Is the NOOGIES some weird board censorship, or do I need a British-American translation?

Haha, yeah, it's a weird board auto-censor that I didn't even notice!

Seriously, "What do you want to read first?" has suddenly become a very apt question!

What gets turned into NOOGIES?

[Shadowman99]

Ah, that's my secret.
Never seen the 'Noogies' censor before

[IMJ]

I just can't believe that the industry as a whole hasn't learned that rebooting with new #1's constantly is making the problem worse. This is an example of psuedo-smarts getting in the way of real patterns. New #1's might give a little boost but the general trend is still downward, downward (opposite of how your 401k is supposed to work for example - it might have valleys and dips, but ideally the trend line moves upwards over time).

New #1's might bring on a few new readers, but the information that everyone is disregarding is how many new readers are being lost because of the transfers and reboots? It simply creates a more confusing and littered product line, and results in short term cash grabs, but long term dwindling market.

People in the industry would argue what I'm saying here, but lo and behold their books are cancelled and relaunched yet again without any valid growth.

[xodacia81]

I just can't believe that the industry as a whole hasn't learned that rebooting with new #1's constantly is making the problem worse. This is an example of psuedo-smarts getting in the way of real patterns. New #1's might give a little boost but the general trend is still downward, downward (opposite of how your 401k is supposed to work for example - it might have valleys and dips, but ideally the trend line moves upwards over time).

New #1's might bring on a few new readers, but the information that everyone is disregarding is how many new readers are being lost because of the transfers and reboots? It simply creates a more confusing and littered product line, and results in short term cash grabs, but long term dwindling market.

People in the industry would argue what I'm saying here, but lo and behold their books are cancelled and relaunched yet again without any valid growth.

This would be a prime example of insanity, would it not?

[hunter_peterson]

I just can't believe that the industry as a whole hasn't learned that rebooting with new #1's constantly is making the problem worse. This is an example of psuedo-smarts getting in the way of real patterns. New #1's might give a little boost but the general trend is still downward, downward (opposite of how your 401k is supposed to work for example - it might have valleys and dips, but ideally the trend line moves upwards over time).

New #1's might bring on a few new readers, but the information that everyone is disregarding is how many new readers are being lost because of the transfers and reboots? It simply creates a more confusing and littered product line, and results in short term cash grabs, but long term dwindling market.

People in the industry would argue what I'm saying here, but lo and behold their books are cancelled and relaunched yet again without any valid growth.

There's a downward sales trend in comics because it's a serial medium. You see the same thing with viewership on tv shows, which have to hype finales and such a lot in order to get a bump. They have the benefit of regularly having new starting and finishing points every season, though, which comics don't necessarily have. So having the ongoing be retitled as a tie-in mini is a reasonable idea. It gives you a clear tie-in, doesn't make the regular readers confused as to what to pick up next and let's you return to normal afterwards. Seems clever to me. The slight bump will bolster them for a little while at least, and that's a constant struggle in comics.

[grendeljd]

I just can't believe that the industry as a whole hasn't learned that rebooting with new #1's constantly is making the problem worse. This is an example of psuedo-smarts getting in the way of real patterns. New #1's might give a little boost but the general trend is still downward, downward (opposite of how your 401k is supposed to work for example - it might have valleys and dips, but ideally the trend line moves upwards over time).

New #1's might bring on a few new readers, but the information that everyone is disregarding is how many new readers are being lost because of the transfers and reboots? It simply creates a more confusing and littered product line, and results in short term cash grabs, but long term dwindling market.

People in the industry would argue what I'm saying here, but lo and behold their books are cancelled and relaunched yet again without any valid growth.

While I do tend to agree with you in general about the somewhat inbred behaviour of reboots/relaunches in the industry, I think that with this initiative these guys are genuinely trying to find a happy medium between purely marketing/sales driven decisions & finding a way to create headlines/sales boosts without sacrificing the quality level of what they are putting out, which is great stories that interconnect in a cohesive universe. The decisions they're making feel like they come from people who care about what they're producing a great deal, in addition to retaining & rewarding their fans.

There's a downward sales trend in comics because it's a serial medium. You see the same thing with viewership on tv shows, which have to hype finales and such a lot in order to get a bump. They have the benefit of regularly having new starting and finishing points every season, though, which comics don't necessarily have. So having the ongoing be retitled as a tie-in mini is a reasonable idea. It gives you a clear tie-in, doesn't make the regular readers confused as to what to pick up next and let's you return to normal afterwards. Seems clever to me. The slight bump will bolster them for a little while at least, and that's a constant struggle in comics.

I'm a bigger fan of keeping series to an ongoing issue number, I love collecting over long stretches of time. But I agree with you too - there are well considered, clever decisions being made here. Its a tad confusing at first to absorb what all is happening with the line, but I think its just because of the massive onslaught of big news all at once. As we absorb & contemplate it all, and further announcements [and solicits] come with regards to the ambiguous areas, it settles in as largely a set of great moves.

[BugsySig]

Actually, if you look at the yearly and monthly sales numbers, the overall trend for the industry is an increase in sales.

For example, even though sales in January 2014 were 4% less than January 2013, it's still 20% higher than January 2012. Last year was the most profitable year for the industry since the late 90s.