The Beginning of the End?

[krylox]

1.
Joshua Dysart on Facebook "I'll be honest with you, Bob. At the level Valiant is now playing, and with the amount of money they've invested in these properties, they have to do whatever it takes to sell books. Quality and readership loyalty totally sells books. But, sadly, so does multiple covers, crossovers, character deaths and narratives driven by marketing. Right now part of the energy of Harbinger that everyone likes is, in part, because every single arc has to have a marketing hook. I had hoped that at some point the numbers on our book would've gotten to the place where we could've relaxed and just told good stories well and each issue didn't have to be a huge event or built around a news worthy headline. But that's just not the case. Harbinger has received a lot of critical acclaim, but it isn't very strong in sales. So now the mission becomes to take those creative choices that are, unquestionably, designed as marketing hooks and execute them in the best way possible and hope that readers come. But at the end of the day, I just want to be proud of the work, whatever the engine was for the creative decisions. And Valiant may be doing what other publishers have to do to survive, but they've never backed me so far into a corner that I didn't get to work in my own voice, and I am very, very, very proud of what we've done with Harbinger. Regardless of compromises."

2.
Dwindling sales, month after month. The VEI titles barely make top200 anymore.

3.
Shadowman regular series replaced with a mini-series. By the same creative team. Basically a reboot.

4.
Dinesh and Warren went silent, except for PR-heavy-Interviews, like when Unity was promoted. Feels like some of that energy and enthusiasm from the beginning is gone. At least the volume is tuned down, considerably.

5.
All those 1-Dollar issues, new-arc-jumping-on-points, cheap vol 1 collection etc etc don't seem to have brought in a lot of new readers. Not enough, anyways.

I know, some of you will argue that everything's fine and VEI's doing great, compared with other small publishers etc. But Joshua's statement may be the first insider information about the state of affairs at VEI we got in a long time. And it doesn't sound very bright/optimistic.

So...

How can they accomplish a turnaround? How can we help?

[hawkeyeps]

How indeed, I often ponder this myself.

For me it's not just about Valiant, but a love for a shared universe with decent continuity. Marvel failed me in that regard with unending reboots and meaningless number ones.

I do think limited series are a good idea for Valiant though, they don't need to go all in for the long run on every book.

I think an established core of titles with limited series that enrich the core books would fine and allow for lots of #1s without compromising the integrity of universe as long as it was well handled editorially.

We are getting Bleeding Monk, Archer and HARD Corps #0's and that's a great idea.

Who wouldn't want a 4 or 5 issue Gen.0 limited series or more on 70/80's Harada vs. PRS?

[x-omatic]

So far I have enjoyed reading almost all of the books from the start and for the most part have also liked the art.
The problem for me, and from retailers I have talked to, has been the constant variants and the inability to get books to stores that are not damaged. Some how month after month after month Valiant books are always damaged. I don't have the same issue with any other "small" publisher. I have found this to be the case at the four different comics shops I visit.
It gets harder and harder to spend $3.99 for a new book that is damaged. Much harder to spend $10, $20, or more for a variant that is damaged.

No matter how good the story and art are, you will loose retailer support when they constantly have to deal with damaged books being returned to diamond. And you will lose collectors when they can not seem to find "NM" books.

I think the constant variants also takes away from the importance of an individual issue and causes confusing for new buyers.

[krylox]

i'm curious, what kind of "damages" are you talking about?

[x-omatic]

i'm curious, what kind of "damages" are you talking about?

Spine damage, corner bends, and edge tears.
Also printing damage on the edges, creases in the covers on the front and back.
My shop has had to return some books 2 and 3 times before giving up on getting an undamaged copy.

[Scarlet-Batman]

With the big 99 cent sales Valiant has, I would not be surprised if a lot of people just stay digital. Why go print when your collection is already online? I know that's the way I am. I wanted to go print with Unity but I was only able to get #2 in print because the comic sells out that fast. So I just bought the missing titles online. Not a big deal from my end. Huge deal when you are looking at Diamond's numbers.

Additionally, no matter what title you are on, the trend is almost always downward. That is why you need gimmicks to spike up the numbers, which staves off cancellation for a few more months until the next gimmick can happen. Gimmicks can be as mundane as a new creative team, as commonplace as a crossover, as cliche as a variant cover, as business-like as offering discounts/rewards to shops who buy x amount of issues or as huge as a death. Regardless of the tactic, they are 100% needed in this industry, sadly. This is why DC does wacky stuff every September and why Marvel is constantly re-numbering.

Plus, I think people were really expecting Image numbers and that isn't going to happen any time soon. You have to prove you are a solid company and slowly build your readership up from nothing to impressive numbers.

I do wonder if there are too many ongoing series though. Sure Valiant has cast a wide net but is Shadowman really worth keeping around as a solo title? Same issue with Bloodshot. Look at the latter's sales from 2013:

17 - 8,142
16 - 8,666
15 - 9,806
14 - 10,225
0 - 11,303
13 - 10,058
12 - 12,145
11 - 11,146
10 - 13,376
9 - 10,959
8 - 11,557
7 - 11,918

You can pretty much tell right when Harbinger Wars started and where Bloodshot went downhill halfway through and never really recovered.


At the same time, if we look at the top 300 comics from the entire year, what do we see? A bunch of Marvel & DC books, a smattering of Image books and... 4 issues from the non-Big Three - Star Wars, The Star Wars (x2) and Unity. That is truly impressive to say the least. Star Wars is an immensely popular brand but Dark Horse's SW comics are, at the end of the day, a licensed comic. So, really, the only right and proper comic that was not from the Big Three to make it into 2013's Top 300 was Unity. That is glorious!

If you expand the list out, pretty much all of the non-Big 3's books that make it into the top 1000 are licensed comics (Red Sonja, My Little Pony, the Regular Show, Sons of Anarchy, etc.). The only other standout is Afterlife with Archie.

Maybe that is something Valiant should think about - licensing a popular property and use it to help stabilize the cash flow. I mean even if the book only regularly sold 25,000 copies, that would still be over double what most of Valiants titles sell regularly (and still wouldn't be enough to make it into the top 1000 of 2013).

[DirtbagSailor]

Man, this is a complex issue, at least for me it is.

From 1938 to the 1990’s comicbooks really only needed to have compelling art and story lines, while also being part of an industry giant such as Marvel or DC. This is NOT to discount the contributions, creativity, or hard work that was involved (though it should be noted that there was a LOT of copying and/or outright creative theft that transpired between Marvel and DC).

But in the 1990’s, VIDEO GAMES were replacing comicbooks in the hands of many young collectors, and CARTOON shows like BATMAN: The Animated Series, X-MEN, TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES, and (later) SPAWN were pouring into mainstream pop-culture. Toys were pretty decent as well, and production deals keep many heroes alive financially. Movies were hitting solid as well, though they did not REALLY explode until 2000.

Hell, Marvel had financial issues, as did most publishers in the 1990’s. Most early VIDEO GAMES featuring comicbook heroes completely SUCKED, and a good portion of the MOVIES did as well. However, today there is nothing bigger. The VIDEO GAMES and MOVIES are a HUGE multi-billion dollar industry in themselves, and the marketing is often augmented by a MASSIVE fan-base that hosts fan-sites, fan art, fan-made videos, cosplay, conventions, posters, calendars, underwear, lunch boxes, you name it.

Unlike 1938 to the 1990’s, TODAY it is NOT enough to simply produce and distribute a GREAT product. There are MULTIPLE angles that must be not only considered, but fully explored. Social media has EXPLODED, and CANNOT be ignored.

There are girls in college that take a picture of them in a bikini licking an ice-cream cone that have 300,000+ likes on Facebook, yet Valiant as a company has just over 10,000. This is not right, but certainly it is what it is.

As VALIANT FANS, we are loyal, and most appreciative for the quality and world that we are given by Valiant. But for the YOUNG and the NEW, different avenues must be explored, and capitalized on.

I wish I was smarter, and that in some ways I had not spent my career in war zones leading men and shooting things. I might be able to better solve this. But I am what I am, and only know how to fight moving forward, so for now, I personally am creating a few social media pages on Instagram and Facebook to expand the Valiant footprint, targeting NON-Valiant fans. Free marketing for VEI, and hopefully new readers will bite the hook…

DBS

[leonmallett]

The beginning of the end seems a big leap to my mind. Sales are down per title, but they are up across the whole. So profitability per book may be down, but overall profits may be okay (we on the outside just don't know). Growing the core audience seems to be a struggle though, with most VEI titles probably being bought by most of the core VEI audience. As more titles are added, the number of fans buying all titles will probably go down at a guess.

The handling of Shadowman seems odd (two fill-ins, new creative team, then mini series format), but despite that it has not been the lowest selling book.

Dysart has acknowledged being constrained by the needs of the corporate entity for marketable story-lines; nothing new there outside of creator owned books.

Yes there challenges for VEI, and even though we would all probably like them to be doing better, to suggest the beginning of the end seems a big leap. If they re-imagine Birthquake, THEN I will be worried.

[mateo107]

Scarlet-Batman, keep in mind that starting next year Star Wars will just be another Marvel title. that might also mean VEI could surpass Dark Horse in market share.

in general, readers don't seem to stay with any books as long as they used to. part of that may be because the big 2 no longer have books that have been ongoing for 500-900 issues, which could either be the cause or the result of this phenomenon. ultimately, the market follows Marvel and DC, whether they set the trends or react to them. Marvel doesn't seem to keep a series going for longer than 30 issues anymore before re-launching, re-naming, or re-numbering, and DC, well, we all know what they did. whatever the case, we're now in a fly-by-night market where fewer people are dedicated to following a series for 100 consecutive issues, every publisher is faced with dwindling sales these days.

VEI currently has about 10K fans on facebook (I remember when I started collecting in April it was less than 7K), so it makes sense that their sales would be consistent around 10K per title. until the fanbase grows substantially, however, there's a glass ceiling for the attention they can attract. my store frequently runs out of Valiant titles, they order just enough to sell out on wednesday and don't have much interest in ordering more because it's still a small publisher. because of this, i don't think a lot of customers ever even see the books on the stands.

I don't anticipate them lowering their prices anytime, but I think the new Shadowman miniseries might be testing the waters for 40-page $3.99 comics. $4 comics are still a hurdle for a lot of people, I know some people who just won't buy them out of principle, but they did try Unity when I told them it was 40 pages. i suspect they're also experimenting with new #1's to renew interest in an ongoing series, which the #0's are also trying to do, without having to re-launch the series. I think we'll see this strategy again with the Q2 miniseries for Quantum & Woody.

keep in mind that even though the market has been getting better every year for the past 2 years, it's not like the major publishers aren't also scrambling with a lot of numbering tricks, price gimmicks, and event hype. if anything, Marvel and DC seem to be acting far more desperate than Valiant is.

[lorddunlow]

keep in mind that even though the market has been getting better every year for the past 2 years, it's not like the major publishers aren't also scrambling with a lot of numbering tricks, price gimmicks, and event hype. if anything, Marvel and DC seem to be acting far more desperate than Valiant is.

QFT

I really don't think VEI is failing. Like others have said (I think in the USA Today thread), VEI has similar numbers to similar publishers like IDW, Dynamite, and the like.

My concern is if they can keep the creators happy, for if we lose Dysart, Vditty, or FVL (really, if we lose even one of them) VEI will be in trouble.

Viva La Valiant!

[leonmallett]

keep in mind that even though the market has been getting better every year for the past 2 years, it's not like the major publishers aren't also scrambling with a lot of numbering tricks, price gimmicks, and event hype. if anything, Marvel and DC seem to be acting far more desperate than Valiant is.

QFT

I really don't think VEI is failing. Like others have said (I think in the USA Today thread), VEI has similar numbers to similar publishers like IDW, Dynamite, and the like.

My concern is if they can keep the creators happy, for if we lose Dysart, Vditty, or FVL (really, if we lose even one of them) VEI will be in trouble.

Viva La Valiant!

I respectfully disagree my friend. Titles can continue and even improve even when a very well-regarded creator moves on. It has happened and will happen, and more importantly it will happen with VEI at some point. It is then about the choice of 'who is next' where the decision-making becomes critical.

[lorddunlow]

I'm not saying that VEI will never be able to survive without those writers (and obviously if VEI lasts a long while, as I think it will, there will be creators that move on), but I think it would put other creators off of working with VEI if there was an exodus due to creative constraints at this early part of the relaunch.

[DirtbagSailor]

if anything, Marvel and DC seem to be acting far more desperate than Valiant is

Isn't that the truth. I mean, they even made Wonder Woman appear feminine and (dare I say it) HOT!

[comicsyte95]

Even if a well respected creator moves on there is always a chance that a new writer could come in and make the title uber popular(even more so then the Walking Dead).But also there is also the potential that a new writer could mess up all continuality and mess up the title...

[Shadowman99]

I think that this new Shadowman miniseries and Q+W(Priest, Bright) miniseries, as well as Armour Hunters even, are very interesting in relation to somebody's "fly by night" notion relating to the general audience being unable/unwilling to follow titles for extended periods of time.

Personally, I'm happy to follow Valiant titles in the long haul because I'm confident of their quality.

Titles by other publishers however... Due to my current lack of disposable income, I can only afford to invest in miniseries that catch my interest, such as Ten Grand or Three. This is of course, better than not investing in them at all. I cannot afford however, to commit to any further ongoing series.

The point I'm getting at is that miniseries may also benefit Valiant. Miniseries may possibly be perceived as 'easier' for non-current Valiant readers to read, as they may be likely to be more willing to sample the brand over a short period without overly committing themselves. From there of course, miniseries readers may be willing to delve deeper into the Valiant universe, and the readership will grow.

[BugsySig]

I still don't see Dysart's comments as negative or critical of VALIANT. He's explaining things to a fan that is complaining about marketing this death instead of it being a surprise.

When he says "sadly" about the gimmicks, he's referring to the state of the comic industry in general. He's saying VEI has to do the same thing as everyone else to sell books.

The only comment that I really see as a negative is when he says the book hasn't sold well. Sure, it's not selling 35-50k an issue like Saga or 100k like TWD, but it sells better than the vast majority of Non-Big 2 comics, and better than many of their their books as well as creator owned books at Image.

Even if it were selling that much, does anyone really think VEI wouldn't continue to market it? Even TWD has some new gimmick to sell more issues with every arc. Get over it already.

[dino]

Not silent. Preparing. About to see us deliver a series of right hooks.

We've been massively successful - every single book has been a commercial and critical hit. Valiant 2014 is all about using that foundation of success to double our game.

[sonicdan]

[Daniel Jackson]

Good to know. Hope 2014 proves to be a great year for Valiant.

[FormerReader]

I really don't think Valiant is in trouble right now. The last title they released (Unity) has been nothing short of great! If it had been a flop I would be worried. As each title seems to improve in quality (Shadowman) or maintain quality this is a good indication of Valiant's health to me. Once they start putting out poor quality and cutting corners then I will worrry. It will take time, but the sales will come.

[DirtbagSailor]

Not silent. Preparing. About to see us deliver a series of right hooks.

We've been massively successful - every single book has been a commercial and critical hit. Valiant 2014 is all about using that foundation of success to double our game.

This. Winning!

I'm still going to start my pro-Valiant social media project this weekend though. Certainly can't hurt, and new readers/collectors can only help VEI grow.

[comicsyte95]

Not silent. Preparing. About to see us deliver a series of right hooks.

We've been massively successful - every single book has been a commercial and critical hit. Valiant 2014 is all about using that foundation of success to double our game.

[Magnus9178]

Valiant is growing, but it's a slow & hard uphill to climb. I don't see that they've reached the plateau yet so I'm not worried. What I think Josh is saying is how they are striving be more then another Indi publisher, but to strive for those goals they have to push gimmicks so that nonreaders will gain notice and hopefully continue reading.

As badly as I want to have more titles to read each month I do agree that Valiant needs to be weary of stretching themselves too thin. That's my big fear, so many titles and they don't have the readers. How many people here read EVERY Valiant title? Too many titles may for some mean that they have to pick and choose what to read.

Cost is another big issue, comics are too *squee* expensive. 3.99 is a ridiculous price for comics but it's what I'm willing to pay for comics that I love. 2.99 was a more manageable price and if Valiant wants to really make an impact they could make their comics cheaper then the rest. That may have been too much a risk, but even the big two still have books at 2.99. I would be more apt to choose a cheaper book with a quality story over a more expensive book with a crap story.

All in all Valiant is getting most things right. They strive for quality and are getting recognition for it. I know people who may not be reading Valiant but they are hearing about how good the books are and would consider reading in the future. We can only hope that future comes.

[Magnus9178]

Not silent. Preparing. About to see us deliver a series of right hooks.

We've been massively successful - every single book has been a commercial and critical hit. Valiant 2014 is all about using that foundation of success to double our game.

Thanks Dino!!! After it's hard to understand the true impact of a company without hearing from the "horses" (or in this case Dino's)mouth

[kevinbastos]

Always glad to hear your responses. Thanks, dino.

Been humbled by the books. So many keep getting better.

Thanks for getting us on task.