The Beginning of the End?

[hawkeyeps]

Thank you to everyone who has commented - except BugsySig. I just don't like the cut of his jib.

Coming from you that's a ringing endorsement jerkface

[BugsySig]

Thank you to everyone who has commented - except BugsySig. I just don't like the cut of his jib.

I'll take that as a compliment, guy from 1927.

[Shadowman99]

My "complete" strategy is one of each, but I buy all of the cover price variants as well. I do think the 8-bit, QR, and throw back cover are always my favorite.

Y'see, I'm a reader, so my definition of 'collecting' is simply one of each issue. As long as I'm able to read a continuous story, I'm happy, whether a variant or the regular cover has fallen into my pullbox

[ckb]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

[paradise]

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

LOL, after having been in this business for over 20 years, almost EVERYTHING we sell is like that long term, and most items are like that even short term. Even with the hot books, let's say Walking Dead #1. Right now it's hot, appreciating in value and all. How about a year after the show is over? Do you think it will still be retaining value and gaining?

You have to decide for yourself if the word "collectible" is attached to a VALUE or an appreciation of having it. If it has to do with value then, it has to either be UNIQUE (original art) or it has to have come out in a marketplace that was not thought of as collectible at all. Anything that comes out with a mentality of a collectible, is not a collectible, LONG TERM, value wise. Good examples of value based collectibles include golden/silver age books, and old baseball cards. Both came out as an entertainment form for kids, and were destroyed by them.

On the other hand, there are collectibles that people collect and do not care about "future value". I collect Hardcover graphic novels that i like. I have quite a few that are worth a LOT of money, 3-4 digit prices. Some that are limited to less than 100 copies. But I don't care, I will not sell them unless i am desperate. To me their value is me reading them anytime I want to.

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value.

Actually this statement in particular is not necessarily true. I know plenty of people who collect weird stuff that they don't care about value. Match boxes, bottle caps, bottle labels, pins... I am pretty sure they are not doing it to put their kids through college. It's just the thrill of the process.

[lorddunlow]

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

I'd be happy if they were worth at least half of what I paid for them...

Also, the POGS comment - are telling me my POGS aren't valuable?! What about the special Wizard edition POG set? Surely that's worth something.

[jedimarley]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

105 regular issues to date.
249 variant covers of those regular issues to date.

[paradise]

105 regular issues to date.
249 variant covers of those regular issues to date.

And that number mattered NOT to 99% of the people who discovered VEI, and was not a Valiant collector from before. They just got the 105 issues (hopefully) and were happy that they were readily available.

Here is a good example to compare it to. Marvel has been selling comics with marvel characters to the fan base of about 100,000 people for 60 years. When they decided to do movies they tweaked the concepts to appeal to the MILLIONS of people out there who are not fans of Marvel comics. Fanboys complained on the net, but it did not matter. They had to appeal to a broader audience. That's the only way to survive.

Valiant is doing the same thing, they tweaked the concepts to be new and fresh, they have a strategy that relies on having single issues in stock at shops, and not on promoting some ebay-determined future value of the books. They use the Variants as a way to get books in front of fans. valiant has followed the marvel model, which is perfect because they are running a connected universe, and Marvel's is definitely the one to follow.

I really do think some people here care more about their own collection than VEI making the right decisions for keeping the company alive and well into the future. I agree that if you are used to the mentality of "I must own everything" this will make it difficult and you may have to adjust your expectations, but this thread from the beginning was about VEI's "beginning of the end" and the argument by some (myself included) that it's not like that at all, that they are making the RIGHT decisions for themselves and for the brand.

[jedimarley]

And their sales drop month to month.

How are the variants helping?

[paradise]

And their sales drop month to month.
How are the variants helping?

Sales drop is 100% normal for ANY company on ANY title, unless it's called SAGA right now. That's why Marvel relaunches their books every 6 months.

Variants slow down that drop for sure. Let's say you are a store owner and you ordered 25 copies last month, but only sold 20, now are you going to order 21 (1 for the shelf) or 25 again? Well if you can get $20 for that 1:25 variant, and the cost of it is now $10 (5 extra copies at $2 wholesale) you are likely to keep the number up, rather than dropping it to meet actual demand. And maybe because you have done that, you can still pick up extra sales, which you would not have if your one copy on the shelf sold and now you were sold out.

One of my biggest pet peeves in comics is publishers and retailers boasting about a sell out. It's like screaming "I no longer make money on this particular item". VEI did it in the beginning, but that was strategy, to get attention from the retailers. It made sense, then.

In our stores, we "pad" orders on all #1 issues. The reason is this. If I order 50 copies and sell out, I don't know the REAL potential of that title. I may be missing out on 10-15 sales. If i order 100 and only sell 60, my employees are creative enough in the long run to use the extra copies to make extra sales. They give the books away, they offer them for free with purchase of #2, they put them out for $1 each (we have a space on the shelves for $1 first issues for people to try, very successful).

[Aram]

And their sales drop month to month.

How are the variants helping?

At this point I don't think we know if the Variants are helping or hurting. I don't know of any shops around me that over order just to get variants.

I am HOPING, that this is similar across the other stores. If so, then the numbers we are seeing are more in line with actual readers/purchasers each month and for the most part only the bigger stores are getting larger orders to meet the uber-collector demand for variants.

If that is the case, then we will likely see a balancing soon with more steady sales numbers and less dropping off each month, except when a new title launches.

I think the tpbs and digital are more a indicator of health than the floppy sales. I think Large and/or steady sales of tpbs indicates more interest and/or of actual readership.

[lorddunlow]

So, Ed, you ever think about setting up shop in the Memphis area? We have great BBQ and great music.

[MarkRoseHFX]

So, Ed, you ever think about setting up shop in the Memphis area? We have great BBQ and great music.

plus they also have tons of crime, and dunlow.

[lorddunlow]

So, Ed, you ever think about setting up shop in the Memphis area? We have great BBQ and great music.

plus they also have tons of crime, and dunlow.

Can't argue the Dunlow part, but as far as crime goes, we get a bad rap. I went to college is a very small city. That city had low violent crime numbers, but when you look on a per capita basis it is much worse than Memphis.

Most crime here is gang related - i.e. only occurs in the "bad parts" of town and is almost 100% drug related. We have the occasional mugging, and rape is a problem (again in the "bad parts"). But I'm never scared to walk around downtown at night.

[jedimarley]

And their sales drop month to month.

How are the variants helping?

At this point I don't think we know if the Variants are helping or hurting. I don't know of any shops around me that over order just to get variants.

I am HOPING, that this is similar across the other stores. If so, then the numbers we are seeing are more in line with actual readers/purchasers each month and for the most part only the bigger stores are getting larger orders to meet the uber-collector demand for variants.

If that is the case, then we will likely see a balancing soon with more steady sales numbers and less dropping off each month, except when a new title launches.

I think the tpbs and digital are more a indicator of health than the floppy sales. I think Large and/or steady sales of tpbs indicates more interest and/or of actual readership.

It's not about overall sales, it's about are the variants helping the overall floppy sales. Numbers don't lie.

[ckb]

105 regular issues to date.
249 variant covers of those regular issues to date.

Wow, I knew my numbers were, wrong but not THAT wrong. Holy cow.

[lorddunlow]

105 regular issues to date.
249 variant covers of those regular issues to date.

Wow, I knew my numbers were, wrong but not THAT wrong. Holy cow.

What he said. Those are some sobering numbers when they're in black and white there.

[FormerReader]

In other news, of the 105 issues they have released I have thoroughly enjoyed 93 of them.

[Elveen]

This has been one of my favorite threads in a LOOOOOONG time.

I love to see the passion and the discussion.

as for this:

Actually - Elveen - do you have any VEI on your wall when at shows? I know you promote the crap out of VEI, but are they on your wall?

Yes. I have maybe 6 Valiant books on my wall, 4 are VEI books I think. I'll admit, I have thought about taking them off the wall, but have not done it yet (wall space = prime real-estate). I have sold some VEI variants a few times, so they are not non-sellers. I DO get people in the Valiant boxes at every show and DO sell Valiant at ever show (I DO give away a TON more than I sell). I will admit that I did pair down my Valiant boxes (due to table availability) but still have both VH1 and VEI books in my table boxes. (I had a long box and 2 shorties under my table that I could bring out if I saw someone in the Valiant boxes.)

I will also share that I have, and just did, sell some "regular" VEI books for over cover. (but I do give tons away [to only people that buy from me, in my opinion a stack of books that says "free take one" = garbage and not worth reading])

[ShadowTuga]

This has been one of my favorite threads in a LOOOOOONG time.

I love to see the passion and the discussion.

as for this:

Actually - Elveen - do you have any VEI on your wall when at shows? I know you promote the crap out of VEI, but are they on your wall?

Yes. I have maybe 6 Valiant books on my wall, 4 are VEI books I think. I'll admit, I have thought about taking them off the wall, but have not done it yet (wall space = prime real-estate). I have sold some VEI variants a few times, so they are not non-sellers. I DO get people in the Valiant boxes at every show and DO sell Valiant at ever show (I DO give away a TON more than I sell). I will admit that I did pair down my Valiant boxes (due to table availability) but still have both VH1 and VEI books in my table boxes. (I had a long box and 2 shorties under my table that I could bring out if I saw someone in the Valiant boxes.)

I will also share that I have, and just did, sell some "regular" VEI books for over cover. (but I do give tons away [to only people that buy from me, in my opinion a stack of books that says "free take one" = garbage and not worth reading])

Very curious about that- which issues are we talking about?

[Tim]

I'd be happy if they were worth at least half of what I paid for them...

If I could sell my collection at half cover price I'd take it in a second!

(and replace it just as fast with more than a few bucks left over...)

[GammaJosh]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

The variants' retention of or increase in value is not really a reward unless you're planning to sell them though, is it? I'm pretty sure most people on this board are holding onto their Valiant collectables, not planning to sell them. The only benefit I see of the values going up is some kind of satisfaction that you got a good buy. To me, it makes no difference if the value goes up. I'm seeking out the variant because I think it looks cool or the fact that it's rare activates the OCD collector lobe of my brain!

I think your definition of collectable is my definition of a good investment. I think you'd have to be crazy to invest in comics! If comics are an important part of your investment portfolio...seek professional advice! Of course I do like it when the value goes up on something I bought, but there's really no tangible benefit there. I know with relative certainty that my collection will be sold off, probably at a fraction of what I paid for it, either in my final years or by friends or family after I die. (My girlfriend's brother had a great test that he used on all her previous boyfriends: if their life-savings was measured in Star Wars action figures, he didn't want them dating her!)

[ckb]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

The variants' retention of or increase in value is not really a reward unless you're planning to sell them though, is it? I'm pretty sure most people on this board are holding onto their Valiant collectables, not planning to sell them. The only benefit I see of the values going up is some kind of satisfaction that you got a good buy. To me, it makes no difference if the value goes up. I'm seeking out the variant because I think it looks cool or the fact that it's rare activates the OCD collector lobe of my brain!

I think your definition of collectable is my definition of a good investment. I think you'd have to be crazy to invest in comics! If comics are an important part of your investment portfolio...seek professional advice! Of course I do like it when the value goes up on something I bought, but there's really no tangible benefit there. I know with relative certainty that my collection will be sold off, probably at a fraction of what I paid for it, either in my final years or by friends or family after I die. (My girlfriend's brother had a great test that he used on all her previous boyfriends: if their life-savings was measured in Star Wars action figures, he didn't want them dating her!)

Well, anytime you want to invest in something that will "marginally retain value", I'm your man. Just send me your money and I will send most of it back to you in 5 years, no questions asked....

Let me put it this way...Why should I buy something today when I can buy it for 25-50% of the price 30 days from now? This is what VEI has going right now, and it is not the kind of "collectability" that they need. How many times are you going to buy the new limited statue the day it comes out when 30 days later you see it for sale for half the original price?

You are correct - no one should buy comics (or statues) as an investment. The reward doesn't come when selling something for more than you paid, the reward is having something other people want, something in demand. That usually translates to monetary value, but not always, this is true.

[GammaJosh]

Ed, just remember, no one hopes your are correct more than me!! I would be very happy to be wrong, I assure you. And I think I can speak for the others in the conversation as well.

I certainly don't think I know better than VEI, it's a miracle they are still around, really. I think a bit of focus on collectability would help at this point. I assume they are just trying to bridge the gap to mass media, and if they get there we can all do the happy dance together.

As a newcomer to this board, one of the first things I noticed was a lot of people going on about their complete collections, and posting about tracking down rare variants. From my perspective, VEI is focusing on collectability, and has actually achieved the best of both worlds: by printing variants, they've increased their overall sales, and created valuable hard to find items for collectors to track down.

IMHO, something that is easily purchasable at a fraction of what you originally paid for it is not collectible. In order to be collectible it must at least marginally retain value. Neither the regular books or the majority of the VEI variants have done this. It's not only the chase, it is having some reward for the chase. There is no reward for the VEI chase except knowing you paid too much. Unfortunately I don't believe this phenomena is unique to VEI in the comic market - there is a lot of it going around.

So, yes, VEI has the chase aspect covered - there are like 50 variants of 150 books. Very few of them are looking collectible right now. They aren't quite Beanie Babies or POGS, and I hope they never get there.

The variants' retention of or increase in value is not really a reward unless you're planning to sell them though, is it? I'm pretty sure most people on this board are holding onto their Valiant collectables, not planning to sell them. The only benefit I see of the values going up is some kind of satisfaction that you got a good buy. To me, it makes no difference if the value goes up. I'm seeking out the variant because I think it looks cool or the fact that it's rare activates the OCD collector lobe of my brain!

I think your definition of collectable is my definition of a good investment. I think you'd have to be crazy to invest in comics! If comics are an important part of your investment portfolio...seek professional advice! Of course I do like it when the value goes up on something I bought, but there's really no tangible benefit there. I know with relative certainty that my collection will be sold off, probably at a fraction of what I paid for it, either in my final years or by friends or family after I die. (My girlfriend's brother had a great test that he used on all her previous boyfriends: if their life-savings was measured in Star Wars action figures, he didn't want them dating her!)

Well, anytime you want to invest in something that will "marginally retain value", I'm your man. Just send me your money and I will send most of it back to you in 5 years, no questions asked....

Let me put it this way...Why should I buy something today when I can buy it for 25-50% of the price 30 days from now? This is what VEI has going right now, and it is not the kind of "collectability" that they need. How many times are you going to buy the new limited statue the day it comes out when 30 days later you see it for sale for half the original price?

You are correct - no one should buy comics (or statues) as an investment. The reward doesn't come when selling something for more than you paid, the reward is having something other people want, something in demand. That usually translates to monetary value, but not always, this is true.

Because it's cool and you like it? Plenty of people buy the latest model gadget or newly released CD or book, knowing full well that the price will drop before long. They just don't want to wait because they think the item in question is too cool to resist.

For myself, I don't buy all the variants, but if I see one in my LCS that looks awesome, I'm probably going to snap it up and not try to worry about a possible future price drop. If I was that dollar conscious, I wouldn't be buying variants at all! If you're worried that much about value, how is collecting even fun? It sounds more like a chore in that light.

To sum up my point: Am I correct in assuming my Shadowman #11 halloween mask variant is worth less than I paid for it? Oh wait, I don't care, because to most people it's a worthless piece of trash, to me its F$%#ING AWESOME, and either way, dollar value doesn't come into play!

[Peter]

This has been an interesting read, that is for sure.

Whilst I have been collecting Comics all of my life (well the first 8 years maybe not ), I will be the first to admit that my knowledge of how things operate at the retail and publishing level is very limited, so I have found this thread very interesting to hear all the differing experiences of events of many years ago and up until today. Oh and more importantly that this discussion has remained at a civil level and not plumb the depths. Well done guys, I've learnt something .

For myself, I am a collector but I only collect what I really believe in, that is why I do my best to get all the variants, ( A big thank you to Bruce and Ed who have both helped me out so much, very much appreciated guys for all your help), but I do this for only a few titles I get every month and all the Valiant titles (except Q & W), Judge Dredd, Wild Blue Yonder and fables are the ones I get the variants. I do this not to get any resale benefit (My kids can fight over it when I'm gone) but because I'm crazy, a bit touched, obsessed or just committed to what I really enjoy reading.

I've already said what I believe back on page 2 or 3 regarding Valiant' future success and I'm sure we are only at the beginning of something incredible with Valiant, of course I could be wrong, but I also believe what happened in the 90's is very different to now, cause valiant went down the tubes then because the product turned to crap. The writing and the artwork in many instances became unbearable, so I did what many others did and stopped buying. I don't think that will happen this time .

Great thread guys