The Beginning of the End?

[Shadowman99]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

Isn't a medium, where the core bulk of the product is a story, most likely to target a demographic of readers?

I understand everything that's been said in the thread regarding (basically) covers being used to sell books and the financial importance that has on Valiant's ability to continue trading as a business. I also understand that for as long as comic books are published, there will be people that emphasise the importance of collecting the product over reading it.

I suppose that somewhat supports your argument for selling books for creators, however, I don't think for a moment that printing lower runs to cater to back issue/collector demand is going to favour Valiant as a company at all. In fact, it'll directly harm it, because it basically results in missed sales: For instance, Valiant print 1,000 copies of issue #X, and 1,500 people want to buy the comic: That's 500 people the company have failed to make money off. That's the kind of sales practice that causes a company to cave regardless of product.

Once Valiant have sold those 1000 copies, they don't make money off those books ever again, regardless of how much the books sell for between collectors/speculators. So why would they lower print runs to support that practice? It makes no sense.

A market in which a story is sold as the product should most definitely be targeting a reading demographic. Otherwise it'd be like trying to sell pork hotdogs to vegetarians: the business will simply never make enough money to sustain itself.

I don't think I ever said VEI should not target new readers. That would be stupid. What I'm saying is VEI should make their comics collectable. Did initial limiting of print runs work for Jemas at Marvel by building print runs over time because the comics were collectable, or did it not?

That's not what I said either.

I said that lower print runs would result in missed sales for VEI, and that I didn't feel that this would benefit the company.

I respect your opinion. I think VEI's approach is common among current publishers, not unusual. Certainly they are getting immediate sales gratification with their variant policy. It's my opinion they would do better over the long run by ending that policy and allowing their regular issues to have print runs according to demand.

As do I: Forums are for discussion and not petty argument right? I think this immediate gratification is important to the company at the current point in time. I think it's likely that they don't yet ( ) have the readership to support a 'collectable' business plan (we can only hope the readership grows of course), but I'd be surprised if their current print runs aren't already specifically numbered as slightly higher than the predicted units sold.

[FormerReader]

I think the perceived level of damages has to do with the fact that a typical Valiant collector is a LOT more picky about the condition of their books. I have been in retail for 20 years now and I have not met a more condition-obsessed collector group. Just look at the CGC runs on this site.

btw, I hope nobody takes what I say in a negative way, 'cause I definitely don't mean it that way. To each their own, I don't judge anyone on what they do, I could not be in this business for 20 years if I did. I am just stating it as a fact. Valiant collectors are very picky about the condition of their books, where my average customer these days just does not give a "you know what".

I know when I go to my LCS I look through every issue to find the one in the best condition.

[kevinbastos]

Here's the thing.

Valiant needs to survive. They, first and foremost, are a business. They have investors, and the investors want to make money. Not lose it.

UN-fortunately, for collectors, we want to 'own it all' as in Poekmon have it all. The impetus is to find the balance when we buy what is out there, or pursue what is out there. Balancing out. They want to find a way where it's possible, but perhaps not QUITE achievable. Valiant's goal is to keep it just BARELY out of reach - and push retailers to buy a LITTLE more every month. Or perhaps every other - or fourth month. And keep looking.

Years ago, I kept looking for the old ORIGINAL Valiant. Or Acclaim. And FINALLY, that was closed.

Now that the COMPLETE VEI us probably out of my price range... The Unity sketchbooks put me there... I have downgraded to only the 1:20 versions. And may downgrade again.

BUT

Valiant is trying to survive. It's not like - in a meeting - Dino - or someone else - is saying, "Forget it (or something more SQUEE-able) the good stories. No more good stories. JUST VARIANTS from now on." A balance of both is pushing forth.

Check Archer & Armstrong. A 1:50 lately. But also MANY issues with just the pullboxes. AND great stories. Perhaps the best in the run yet (my humble opinion) BUT. As elveen often points out... Three years ago, I would have KILLED for a story with any Valiant character. Wait. That was Dark Key. FIVE years ago, I wanted Valiant. WOULD HAVE READ GARBAGE. And Dino - plus a SERIOUS risk. and GREAT investors. Made new stories. Something I wanted desperately. Remember the old Greg post? Dance in the streets, people. We are in it. And they are coming. Well, next week they are coming. REVEL in it. For as long as we can. I plan to.

Well, first, I have a few other plans. But tomorrow, I plan to revel in it.

[jmatt]

Ed nailed it across the board.

[paradise]

Honestly when I hear from a Valiant fan that Valiant should put out less copies to create demand, I want to scream bloody murder.

I have nothing else to add to that conversation

[dmezynski]

Not silent. Preparing. About to see us deliver a series of right hooks.

We've been massively successful - every single book has been a commercial and critical hit. Valiant 2014 is all about using that foundation of success to double our game.

In Dino we trust

[comicsyte95]

After reading all of Ed's posts got me thinking long and hard.Even though im still inclined to believe that Variants hurt the secondary market a bit .Im starting to believe they are a necessary evil.VEI has to make it profitable for LCS's and companies to make a profit in the end or they wouldn't put an effort in to carry the comics.It costs money to make comics market them and get them released.If it means that you have to pay a bit to own everything that is the price as with anything.VEI puts an effort in so that we get to read stories even if you cant afford the variants or even the floppies you can buy the TPBs/ HC's in a much cheaper format and they care about the fans and get us new VALIANT material.If it means that I get new material I can deal with not owning everything that is a price I can pay.They have to pay for the license's the printing.quality artists and writers and hundreds of other things in a tough market.To do so they have to make it profitable in the end.

They also want to give a challenge also to get what you can that alone is the fun part of collecting.If everthing was easy what makes it fun.They do every possible things as fans themselves to get the books in our hands.

One thing that isn't brought up is that they don't put new material in the variants other then the cover.. I have a feeling the reason for that is they want a casual fan not to miss anything. if they cant afford everything and not owning every variant which they understand all can't.That is a sign of a good company.

[lorddunlow]

Wait. Valiant makes variant covers? Are there a lot of them? How hard will it be for me to get them all. $100 should cover them, right?

[mkb28]

In my opinion, too many variants have repercussions in the long run. When I first started collecting the new VEI books, I was excited to collect the "entire universe." I tried to keep up with all the variants, but soon realized that it would just cost too much money. I then decided to only collect the #1 variants, but Unity #1 was the last straw for me, especially when you factor in all the LCS variants. It reminded me of all the mistakes I made in the 1990's collecting Batman books and I decided that I was done buying the variant covers and the regular issues. From now on, I am just going to buy the TPB's, HC editions and an occasional Gold book (I have to have at least one vice! )

I miss the VH1 days of regular issues, a Gold book and maybe a VVSS book. I would still be "all-in" if it were so simple.

I encourage everyone to check out Comic Shop News #1384. In their "23rd Annual RedK Awards" section, they give out two awards regarding the excessive amount of variant covers:

The "Numbers Racket" Award: "As long as they boost sales, publishers will keep making them--but how long are collectors going to be willing to shell out high-priced 1-for-100 and 1-for-200 covers for series whose sales simply don't justify the stratospheric buy-in requirements to get a single copy? And now there's an even more disturbing trend: "all you want" variants that a store can purchase only if they up their standard order to multiples of a best-selling title from months before. And if that best-selling title was already incentivized by being pegged to an earlier best-selling title, you end up with the variant cover version of a numbers racket."

The "Cover Less" Award- Excessive Cover Variants: "Regular covers, subscription variant covers, pullbox variants, gore variants, wraparound variants, theme variants, multiple artist variants...Do we really need this many covers for mid-tier titles?...and what was once a sales tool now is a cause of fan confusion and frustration. Howasabout just offering one good cover instead?"

Looking at Unity #5 and all the variants, I just have to shake my head.

Michael
mkb28

[Shadowman99]

One thing that isn't brought up is that they don't put new material in the variants other then the cover.

If Valiant put additional (story) material in variants that wasn't in regular issues, that's when I'd really throw the rattle out of the pram.

[ckb]

Honestly when I hear from a Valiant fan that Valiant should put out less copies to create demand, I want to scream bloody murder.

I have nothing else to add to that conversation

No...same number of copies, less first prints.

Or.. alternatively..do a pullbox cover for every book. No incentive program for the pullbox orders at all - they don't count towards anything.... Do whatever kind of incentive you want for the regular cover. 1:100 1:15: 1:22 1:123 I don't care.

[Intrepidxc]

In my opinion, too many variants have repercussions in the long run. When I first started collecting the new VEI books, I was excited to collect the "entire universe." I tried to keep up with all the variants, but soon realized that it would just cost too much money. I then decided to only collect the #1 variants, but Unity #1 was the last straw for me, especially when you factor in all the LCS variants. It reminded me of all the mistakes I made in the 1990's collecting Batman books and I decided that I was done buying the variant covers and the regular issues. From now on, I am just going to buy the TPB's, HC editions and an occasional Gold book (I have to have at least one vice! )

I miss the VH1 days of regular issues, a Gold book and maybe a VVSS book. I would still be "all-in" if it were so simple.

I encourage everyone to check out Comic Shop News #1384. In their "23rd Annual RedK Awards" section, they give out two awards regarding the excessive amount of variant covers:

The "Numbers Racket" Award: "As long as they boost sales, publishers will keep making them--but how long are collectors going to be willing to shell out high-priced 1-for-100 and 1-for-200 covers for series whose sales simply don't justify the stratospheric buy-in requirements to get a single copy? And now there's an even more disturbing trend: "all you want" variants that a store can purchase only if they up their standard order to multiples of a best-selling title from months before. And if that best-selling title was already incentivized by being pegged to an earlier best-selling title, you end up with the variant cover version of a numbers racket."

The "Cover Less" Award- Excessive Cover Variants: "Regular covers, subscription variant covers, pullbox variants, gore variants, wraparound variants, theme variants, multiple artist variants...Do we really need this many covers for mid-tier titles?...and what was once a sales tool now is a cause of fan confusion and frustration. Howasabout just offering one good cover instead?"

Looking at Unity #5 and all the variants, I just have to shake my head.

Michael
mkb28

I'm still collecting all the #1 issue in CGC 9.8, but I'm close to switching to trades. I know this still helps Valiant, but not as much as individual issue sales. I'm spending too much collecting the individual issues I want (and I really want all the #1 issues in CGC 9.8).

[Michael_Ayer]

I'm brand new here. But I've been following for a year and I own all the issues of all the titles. No variants. All I care is for one of each. So I don't have anything to say about that... But I do have a thought or question.

What about Valiant doing a Kickstarter campaign? We would all give and so would their page and so will others. Marc Silvestri did it for Cyber Force and from what I understand they raised $75k !!!

Dino. Why not start a new title through this method?

It is free publicity. We could all promote it and there are other sources. And it is fun for the collector. Because there can be limited edition rewards. And it could really launch... Ninjak? Time walker? Mary Maria as one of the new Trinity Angels? Idk. But it could launch something fun!

Btw. I don't work in crowdfunding. I just like to read Valiant and am looking forward to all 15 titles per month.

New to commenting,

Michael Ayer

[GammaJosh]

An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants.

Aaron, I know you pretty well by now, we have done a lot of stuff together, I know what you buy and I think I know why.

Most of the "speculation" market these days centers around creator owned properties that are severely under-ordered or have media-right connections (i.e. tv show or movie futures) that people are gambling on. it's the Walking Dead effect. Everyone is trying to find the next WD. That will never happen to VEI no matter how many variants they produce or not produce.

The only way it will happen is if they are severely under-ordered. Like in 1k-2k range. But then VEI is in much bigger trouble, because they don't make ANY money off speculation, which means they will be out of business. It's not like the 90s, the costs are a lot higher. They can't run on those numbers till the speculators notice and Wizard magazine makes them big. Nobody does this type of speculating EN MASSE. It just does not happen.

I really hope fans here understand, what happened in the 90s with prices WILL NEVER EVER EVER HAPPEN AGAIN. The story about how Gareb Shamus by his lonesome created the "Valiant boom" are fun, but there is no such entity that people believe blindly these days (no, not even Bleeding Cool) and people are not this gullible anymore either.

For every fan who made a killing on early Valiants, there are 5 longboxes of Rai & The Future Force and Bloodshot 8 in my "Comics by the pound" bins, from people who have dropped them off at the store in the night, and left them in front of my door. That's the reality.

Ed, I agreed with you up to this post, but here I do not.

- VEI will be entering mass media, or they will fail. I know it is the VEI management teams' top focus. So, you are premature saying that there will be no room for VEI in the speculation market.

- It is also surprising to see you write that VEI makes no money off of speculation. Of course they do - more books purchased is more money for VEI. I think you may have been trying to say that VEI makes no money off the secondary market, and I disagree with that as well. People want what they cannot have. Apparent demand is sometimes just as good as actual demand, and any comic book publisher who completely ignores the secondary market does so at their own peril. This market is a driver for future sales of current books.

My personal feeling is they should run lean and make the 1st prints hard to get for awhile, possibly leading up to a mass media event. The best way to do this would be to cut out the variants, because that would curtail over-ordering from the retailers. I would begin printing-to-order with a very tight overprint and go to press immediately with second prints and TPBs on everything so everyone who wants to read them can. Make the later printings the variants.

- As far as the hype machine goes, I think I agree with you there. In today's market we need actual or perceived demand for the current books. After that, hype helps, but hype by itself is not going to do it today.

I am really confused here! You want Valiant to reduce the number of variants, sacrificing sales to drive print runs down to levels that will entice speculators to buy multiple copies? How is that not a losing proposition for Valiant? They wouldn't be reaching any more people and they'd be selling fewer copies. Valiant couldn't bring the print runs back up to meet any increased speculator demand because that would just reduce the demand again.

I'm pretty sure that the number of speculator or back issue sales gained would be a fraction of the variant sales lost. Valiant fans are buying the variants and the regular covers. If you cease the variants, the Valiant fans are still going to buy the regular covers, so they're not going to need to buy them as back issues. It just...I'm sorry...it doesn't make any sense to me.

I also fundamentally disagree that the secondary market is an important corner of the industry. The most well run and successful comics shops in my area are the ones that don't even carry back issues any more. The ones that carry back issues tend to be the dingy ones that are surviving solely on long-term sub customers.

[lorddunlow]

I think what ckb, VEI Reborn, and other members are trying to point out is that while the secondary market does not directly provide revenue for VEI, the buzz in that market is very important in increasing readership.

There are quite a few people who primarily collect comics, but also read them. (For me the reading should come first, but to each his own.) These people follow trends in the secondary market - like we do on this board in the HTF/Currently Hot Comics thread. There are tons of books that have low print run #1 issues that come out every week. Most of them do not take off in sales of subsequent issues or on the secondary market. What makes a book popular is if the content is great. That stokes the flames of the secondary market. Books like Saga aren't on some people's radar as a potential monthly read until they hear the crazy prices a 1st print #1 is going for on eBay. It starts the comic shop owners talking, forums talking, etc. which causes more people to think about checking the book out. (I started reading Revival because of this - my first exposure to it was seeing a huge price sticker on a 2nd print and then high eBay prices for first prints when I was looking for a Manhattan Projects run). Now, I still got input from people on here who had read it before I started reading it, but otherwise I don't think I would have ever even known about the book.

The over-ordering due to incentive variants hurts VEI in two ways (I know it helps on the front end, but I really think VEI has numbers that are good enough now and stable without having to inflate them with variants - at least not as much as they did in the beginning):

1. You don't see the hype due to an issue's price on the secondary market going through the roof. (I'm convinced this would happen if 1st prints were done as ckb mentioned as VEI blows the big 2 out of the water as far as story goes. Then just print as many 2nd prints as needed to fill the demand and incentivize those orders or the #2/#3 issue orders).

2. Some people will hold off on buying VEI books because they can get them for a fraction of the initial cost when released. These books are already in dollar bins everywhere. (I think dbngaa sold his complete set for much less than a dollar a book not too long ago.) I did not buy ANY Unity #1 variants because I knew they would come down in price drastically due to the returnability and overordering. What Ed and the Phantom group were selling for $10/15 each (their exclusive covers), I literally just purchased for $10 shipped total for one copy of each of those books. If I didn't strongly feel it was important to support VEI by buying each issue at $3.99 on release date, then I would just wait until a Comixology sale, buy almost every issue for 1/4 the initial cost and then find a shop that has the issues in their dollar bins and make an offer to get them for even less. Someone who is not a staunch VEI supporter like we are would be stupid to do otherwise. That just makes economical sense. The ONLY reason I don't do that is that I want to make sure VEI succeeds and I try to do my part. But it really chaffs my hind-end as a collector that my shortbox full of comics could be purchased outright today for much, much less than I paid for them. That is solely due to the over-ordering due to variants.

Not many retailers are going to take the time to promote VEI like Ed does (such as with his Unity promotion). He wanted to come up with a way to use the "free" copies of Unity #1 he has taking up space in his store. That's wonderful, and I hope the Bleeding Cool story causes others to follow suit. However, the majority of retailers see these books as inventory that is pure profit, so they price to move (if they used the same strategy as Ed to price the variants then all the extra issues have been paid for with the money made off the variants). I guarantee I could walk into an LCS and buy a stack of these for a couple of bucks.

[ckb]

I am really confused here! You want Valiant to reduce the number of variants, sacrificing sales to drive print runs down to levels that will entice speculators to buy multiple copies? How is that not a losing proposition for Valiant? They wouldn't be reaching any more people and they'd be selling fewer copies. Valiant couldn't bring the print runs back up to meet any increased speculator demand because that would just reduce the demand again.

I'm pretty sure that the number of speculator or back issue sales gained would be a fraction of the variant sales lost. Valiant fans are buying the variants and the regular covers. If you cease the variants, the Valiant fans are still going to buy the regular covers, so they're not going to need to buy them as back issues. It just...I'm sorry...it doesn't make any sense to me.

I also fundamentally disagree that the secondary market is an important corner of the industry. The most well run and successful comics shops in my area are the ones that don't even carry back issues any more. The ones that carry back issues tend to be the dingy ones that are surviving solely on long-term sub customers.

I understand why you are confused, you have me all wrong there. We'll have to agree to disagree on the last point. A vibrant secondary market drives sales of new books - even at stores that do not carry back issues. Books increasing in price due to demand drives buzz and word of mouth. The shops that have none or sell out of new books on the shelves will hear about it. What doesn't drive sales of new books are older books in the quarter box, as much as VEI (or I) would like them to and thinks they will.

The issue I am concerned with is the incentive variants driving regular copy sales to the point where the regular copies are not collectible. VEI doesn't get any money for sales of variants, past the $2 the shop pays for them. The variants drive sales of regular copies to shops who apparently are funding the purchase of the regular copies through the sales of those variants. It only works if those extra books on the shelves get purchased, and my feeling right now is that they are not.

So really what I want is a copy of each book that is printed for those who are actually going to read and collect the titles. One way I see to achieve that is using the pullbox variants. A program of pullbox covers whose order numbers do not count toward incentives (except maybe some yearly or other long term incentive). Then, a regular cover that can be incentivized with further variants which will insure there are books on the shelves. Maybe this is better than my later printings idea in my previous post. It's a plan to drive future sales, not current sales.

I don't want speculation to drive sales, I want collectability to drive them, along with great content, of course. I may be overstating this whole case because, with few exceptions, the VEI print runs are so small that even with the incentives some sort of future magic may make them collectible. The early books are done for though. I'm just afraid that it all adds up to VEI being done for as well.

VEI's future entry into mass media may make all these discussions moot. If Dino and company can pull that off very little else will matter.

[lorddunlow]

See. I knew what ckb was going on about.

[Heath]

Remember the old days when Valiant was creating a HUGE buzz in the secondary market, when Valiant filled Wizard's top 10 hottest books, leading to more readers and increased sales, and they had NO (or very very few counting the Golds) variant covers, and it was all because they were just really great comics? "Oh, but today's marketplace is different wah wah wah." Only because we're making it different.

[ckb]

See. I knew what ckb was going on about.

Your post was perfect, thanks!

[Tannerman]

Comic speculation sure is silly

[oldjello]

I don't think people buy rights to characters just to create a business model that will fail. I was collecting Valiants when they first were published, and the market (obviously) has seen some very drastic changes. What history has told us is that if you can build a niche following that's successful, it can keep Valiant afloat for a long time.
Their sales will increase by one monthly when they drop a Rai title.

[etos45]

Remember the old days when Valiant was creating a HUGE buzz in the secondary market, when Valiant filled Wizard's top 10 hottest books, leading to more readers and increased sales, and they had NO (or very very few counting the Golds) variant covers, and it was all because they were just really great comics? "Oh, but today's marketplace is different wah wah wah." Only because we're making it different.

While I totally agree with you, I feel obligated to point out that the "old days" didn't end well for Valiant or comics in general. I think this flood of variants will eventually make it where the variants have very little value and their effectiveness will waiver. I'm actually a bit surprised that there is any demand at all at this point or that there are people who have the money to continue to be completest.

[lorddunlow]

I'm actually a bit surprised that there is any demand at all at this point or that there are people who have the money to continue to be completest.

+1

[Heath]

While I totally agree with you, I feel obligated to point out that the "old days" didn't end well for Valiant or comics in general.

But the reason it didn't end well for the original Valiant had nothing to do with variant covers and gimmicks. It had everything to do with the fact the books just weren't that great anymore. They lived and died by the quality of their product.

[GammaJosh]

I am really confused here! You want Valiant to reduce the number of variants, sacrificing sales to drive print runs down to levels that will entice speculators to buy multiple copies? How is that not a losing proposition for Valiant? They wouldn't be reaching any more people and they'd be selling fewer copies. Valiant couldn't bring the print runs back up to meet any increased speculator demand because that would just reduce the demand again.

I'm pretty sure that the number of speculator or back issue sales gained would be a fraction of the variant sales lost. Valiant fans are buying the variants and the regular covers. If you cease the variants, the Valiant fans are still going to buy the regular covers, so they're not going to need to buy them as back issues. It just...I'm sorry...it doesn't make any sense to me.

I also fundamentally disagree that the secondary market is an important corner of the industry. The most well run and successful comics shops in my area are the ones that don't even carry back issues any more. The ones that carry back issues tend to be the dingy ones that are surviving solely on long-term sub customers.

I understand why you are confused, you have me all wrong there. We'll have to agree to disagree on the last point. A vibrant secondary market drives sales of new books - even at stores that do not carry back issues. Books increasing in price due to demand drives buzz and word of mouth. The shops that have none or sell out of new books on the shelves will hear about it. What doesn't drive sales of new books are older books in the quarter box, as much as VEI (or I) would like them to and thinks they will.

The issue I am concerned with is the incentive variants driving regular copy sales to the point where the regular copies are not collectible. VEI doesn't get any money for sales of variants, past the $2 the shop pays for them. The variants drive sales of regular copies to shops who apparently are funding the purchase of the regular copies through the sales of those variants. It only works if those extra books on the shelves get purchased, and my feeling right now is that they are not.

So really what I want is a copy of each book that is printed for those who are actually going to read and collect the titles. One way I see to achieve that is using the pullbox variants. A program of pullbox covers whose order numbers do not count toward incentives (except maybe some yearly or other long term incentive). Then, a regular cover that can be incentivized with further variants which will insure there are books on the shelves. Maybe this is better than my later printings idea in my previous post. It's a plan to drive future sales, not current sales.

I don't want speculation to drive sales, I want collectability to drive them, along with great content, of course. I may be overstating this whole case because, with few exceptions, the VEI print runs are so small that even with the incentives some sort of future magic may make them collectible. The early books are done for though. I'm just afraid that it all adds up to VEI being done for as well.

VEI's future entry into mass media may make all these discussions moot. If Dino and company can pull that off very little else will matter.

OK, I think I understand what you are saying better now. I still think that having the extra sales numbers up front is probably better for Valiant than having the collector buzz, and having a bunch of unsold copies on the market for far less than cover price might actually be a good thing. Maybe someone who wouldn't try a Valiant comic for $3.99 will take the plunge for $1.00.

I am not worried about Valiant being done for at all. I wouldn't be surprised if the comics were planned to be a loss leader all along. It's all about the licensing and mass media potential.