Is VEI dead or dying?

BloodOfHeroes · Post by **BloodOfHeroes** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:04 am

UnknownTales wrote:DO NOT MISS THIS MARKETING OPPORTUNITY VEI!

Or...

Perhaps with so many other, non-comic, news making headlines @ SDCC, any announcements VEI could make might get lost. Why compete for the headlines (which VEI probably wouldn't get, compared to Marvel's movies, etc.) that week when they could get more attention making the same annoucement on an "off" week?

Doing what everybody else does isn't always the best business strategy. If you can't be the biggest or the loudest, you might as well have not said or done anything (at that time).

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:10 am

Point well-made!!!

-slym

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:45 am

On to my monthly VEI dead or dying post as promised (delayed due to real-life events).

BloodOfHeroes wrote:
UnknownTales wrote:DO NOT MISS THIS MARKETING OPPORTUNITY VEI!
Or...

Perhaps with so many other, non-comic, news making headlines @ SDCC, any announcements VEI could make might get lost. Why compete for the headlines (which VEI probably wouldn't get, compared to Marvel's movies, etc.) that week when they could get more attention making the same annoucement on an "off" week?

Doing what everybody else does isn't always the best business strategy. If you can't be the biggest or the loudest, you might as well have not said or done anything (at that time).

Slym observed that yours is a fair point and well made.

The flipside is when is the right time to announce? Cons attract media news, and therefore offer news channels to various announcements. Making an announcment in an off-week could be a savvy strategy, but forgive me for suggesting this:

Has anything VEI has done so far been particulalry 'savvy'?

I ask that question beacuse:
- The capital investment has yielded nowhere near neough return to be regarded as a success; it can only be seen as substantially loss-making at this point.
- We have no new comic books from VEI, nor any new publications in more than a year. They are not a publisher evidently - so what exactly is their line of business? Other media licensing? They don't seem very successful at that either.
- Any hope of other media income seems to have been over-hyped.
- VEI may have employed a credible figure as an EiC without a contract - suggesting naivety to this onlooker.
- As a corporate entity the greatest focus for VEI (whether intentional or more likely not) has veered towards litigation rather than offering a viable selection of product.

VEI - I suspect dying the most painfully slow death in comic book publishing history.

superman-prime · Post by **superman-prime** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:57 pm

better then crossgen method solicit take money then die

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:28 am

superman-prime wrote:better then crossgen method solicit take money then die

We can't judge VEI by the failures of others, since we have all hoped for success for them - to do so is to expect failure, just as long as it isn't as big a failure as another venture. Instead they should be judged by their success or otherwise relative to others, and on that they fall very short I feel.

UnknownTales · Post by **UnknownTales** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:45 am

The question is not whether they were going to produce material with Shooter, but IF they have the ability to produce it without him. So far, they have failed at the latter, and this is not a good sign.

Evidence: no eic for six months since Jim left and NO announcement of his replacement.

hotwings1979 · Post by **hotwings1979** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:47 pm

It will be interesting to see what comes in the next few months. I'm psyched about the prospect of DH picking up the GK lines. One would think that if they had an interest in the GK characters they might have an interest in the Valiants as well.

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:47 pm

I say Keep the faith.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:55 pm

Phantom. wrote:I say Keep the faith.

VEI is going into their sixth year owning these properties. As of right now there is nothing coming out for the first two quartes of 2010. Nothing.

Hard to keep the faith.

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:04 pm

how long since Jesus?
Keep the faith.

I don't want to be rude with the above comment.

Consider, you have a full time job, and trying to start up the third biggest comic company of the 90's.

Its a big ask.

How hard is it t do a 'project' for valiant fans? I am doing my second participation. It has sat in frount of me for 1 month without touching it.
It is in the kitchen, when I EAT.

I cannot spare the time, life is busy. I help alot of people, when I say help., I work for very very cheap ~ so people don't take advantage. But who else will work till 2000 and not charge extra. Plus give dicount for inconvienace. To much info

Money is not everything.

AND I said that when I had NONE, I said that when I had some,. I say that even more that now I have what I consider alot.

These guys are valiant fans, they brought the rights. Lets hope they put something out.

Keep the faith/

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:07 pm

when I say I work cheap. I do.
So people don't take advantage.

What I mean is when it is free ~ like before, people just expect everything then complain.

When they have to pay, they are less likey to ask. They get quotes, find out how cheap I am. And I have never had a complaint.

Yes sometimes its a mega pain. Hopefully someone returns the favour.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:14 pm

What the f@ck are you talking about?

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:23 pm

Come on Jedi ~ not that again.

Unless I didn't read your post properly

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:25 pm

Nope I read it properly.

I posted twice above, maybe you missed one of them

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:25 pm

You 'Keep the faith'. I'll be over here with the normal people.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:41 pm

To Phantom - if I understand correctly you suggest that the VEI venture is essentially a 'fan project'. If I misunderstand, then I apologise for the post that follows.

I have to disagree. I suggest $925,000 of investment is about business - unless someone is wealthy enough to fritter away that kind of money. Now VEI have realised virtually nothing for their investment. I don't doubt they are fans, but this was never a fan project, it was a business venture. One that seems to have gone very sour.

You don't sue someone whose association you value highly for $3,000,000 over a fan project.

It was a business venture, an opportunity. I think VEI were thinking Hollywood dollar signs when they should have been more careful to actually create a viable business. Fans they (VEI) may be, but this was never a fan project.

I am sorry to place faith in context of a supposed fan project is to misplace it in my opinion, mate.

dhudson1 · Post by **dhudson1** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:47 pm

leonmallett wrote:To Phantom - if I understand correctly you suggest that the VEI venture is essentially a 'fan project'. If I misunderstand, then I apologise for the post that follows.

I have to disagree. I suggest $925,000 of investment is about business - unless someone is wealthy enough to fritter away that kind of money. Now VEI have realised virtually nothing for their investment. I don't doubt they are fans, but this was never a fan project, it was a business venture. One that seems to have gone very sour.

You don't sue someone whose association you value highly for $3,000,000 over a fan project.

It was a business venture, an opportunity. I think VEI were thinking Hollywood dollar signs when they should have been more careful to actually create a viable business. Fans they (VEI) may be, but this was never a fan project.

I am sorry to place faith in context of a supposed fan project is to misplace it in my opinion, mate.

Absolutely, if they want to be able to launch successful movies, they must get books back on the shelves, and good quality ones at that.

Let's face it, the average movie goer is not going to know characters that have been out of print for years. And it will take more than hard core Valiant fans to maek a theatrical release a success.

JonesyAZ · Post by **JonesyAZ** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:39 pm

It seriously amazes me how Valiant has fared over the years. It originally started out as THE standard for a good comic book, then eventually became everything BUT. I know this is repeating old thoughts/feelings/etc., but I just don't understand why Jim Shooter had to be treated so poorly and booted out of Valiant? In my personal experience creating my band, going through the motions, and the 1.5 years it took to compose and record the music with my co-hort, there were some times that working with him was VERY challenging. BUT...the fact is, my friend in A Dark Halo is THE most talented person I have ever worked with, and the butting of heads and the short-term difficulties faced were worth every moment.

Yes, I understand that Jim Shooter may be difficult to work with, BUT...the guy clearly cares about just releasing damn good comic books to give the fan his/her money's worth. And I understand that VEI probably took on more than they could. But damn it...just release some good comics and everything WILL fall into place in time.

If Valiant had retained Shooter, we all know that all those damn investors would have made their money 10 times over by now, and new books might still be coming, and the collection would still be valuable.

End rant...lol.

I just am so fortunate to have discovered Valiant and all of you wonderful fans who have kept the creative fire stoked!

Phantom.. · Post by **Phantom..** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:46 pm

But i do not consider it a fan project. All i am saying is, just because they have invested $1,000,000 doesn't mean they don't have other jobs, lives, things happening in their lives.

I was saying that fans brought the rights, thats all.

Whats more important, making potentual ( cannot spell it) profit on something, or monthly income from work.

They may have thought it would be easy to make profit from film or something else, maybe they bit the bullet an are doing the hard graft.

What I am saying is, just because they haven't told us anything doesn't mean nothing is happening ~## no matter how slow. AND also they may have more important income generating things happening to pay the bills to risk it on potenial income.

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:04 pm

JonesyAZ wrote:... but I just don't understand why Jim Shooter had to be treated so poorly and booted out of Valiant?

The answer has nothing to do with creative differences.

When Shooter started Valiant, he got capital from a firm called Triumphant. I believe the sum was $3 million or in that ballpark. Shooter wanted to make a comic book company and Triumphant was wanting to make some money by selling this new company in the relatively near future, a matter of a few years. When the time came, Shooter did not want to sell and he was moved out of the way so Triumphant could sell which they did to Acclaim for $65 million.

That is why Shooter was kicked out of his own company.

JonesyAZ · Post by **JonesyAZ** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:32 pm

Chiclo wrote:
JonesyAZ wrote:... but I just don't understand why Jim Shooter had to be treated so poorly and booted out of Valiant?
The answer has nothing to do with creative differences.

When Shooter started Valiant, he got capital from a firm called Triumphant. I believe the sum was $3 million or in that ballpark. Shooter wanted to make a comic book company and Triumphant was wanting to make some money by selling this new company in the relatively near future, a matter of a few years. When the time came, Shooter did not want to sell and he was moved out of the way so Triumphant could sell which they did to Acclaim for $65 million.

That is why Shooter was kicked out of his own company.

Just typical business, I guess. I know i'm preaching to the choir, but it just sucks from a creative standpoint. And if it's true that Jim had years of health problems from what Jay-Jay had said on your podcast Chiclo...just an absolute bummer....

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:46 am

Phantom. wrote:But i do not consider it a fan project. All i am saying is, just because they have invested $1,000,000 doesn't mean they don't have other jobs, lives, things happening in their lives.

Sorry that I misunderstood then.

Think about it this way - if you invested $1,000,000 in something, then wouldn't you work at that investment to make it work rather than do nothing with it?

I was saying that fans brought the rights, thats all.

Fair enough.

Whats more important, making potentual ( cannot spell it) profit on something, or monthly income from work.

They may have thought it would be easy to make profit from film or something else, maybe they bit the bullet an are doing the hard graft.

I think you are possibly right - that they thought other media licensing would work. But usually to do so you need a workable product to license out. A pretty much defunct comic-book company is not that. If they were determined to secure other licensing they should have spread their bets I feel, and therefore worked to work their investment. And the obvious way to do that? Publish products regularly.

What I am saying is, just because they haven't told us anything doesn't mean nothing is happening ~## no matter how slow. AND also they may have more important income generating things happening to pay the bills to risk it on potenial income.

I am sorry I don't share your faith in VEI. Everything they have done publicly does not suggest the one thing that fans on this board would probably love most from them - comic book publication. And no, I don't accept that Jim Shooter being on board would have automatically resulted in such publication. The only proof would ever be actual products. I think they have purchased the VALIANT properties with a pretty misguided business plan, and so have scrambled to try and recover from that in the past 12 months - and we have seen how well that turned out for them, haven't we: no new products and litigation are the only things on the horizon.

My posting here is because VEI have benefitted from goodwill since they won the auction, yet I don not believe they have repaid that goodwill. That goodwill saw many fans buying those hardcovers. I bet that the majority of those buying the hardcovers already owned the originally published material. So they bought possibly thinking (as I know I did) that doing so was supporting VEI towards ongoing publication of new comic books.

'Securing' <ahem> Jim Shooter's services after the third hardcover was a sleight of hand in my view. They had released three books and were still no closer to publishing new comics (or pamplets as VEI prefer). I think the Hollywood hopes had evaporated and so they hastily went for plan B - we have some comic book characters so what can we do with them? Publish comic books? Not comic books - pamphlets! Great idea! Of course plan B was so well conceived that they managed to alienate many VALIANT alumni and enter into litigation. Go VEI.

The point is that as consumers we are free to call into question the practices of a quite frankly poorly executed business. They don't have to answer those questions, but as long as they are unanswered I can see no reason to 'keep the faith' and to keep on questioning both VEI and more specifically their motives and goals.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:22 am

Phantom. You're a good guy and I like you, but you remind me of Linus sitting alone in the pumpkin patch waiting for the Great Pumpkin.

UnknownTales · Post by **UnknownTales** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:27 am

agreed.

tmcneil82 · Post by **tmcneil82** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:29 am

jedimarley wrote:Phantom. You're a good guy and I like you, but you remind me of Linus sitting alone in the pumpkin patch waiting for the Great Pumpkin.

Too true though. I think keeping the faith on this is going to get you nothing but burned in the end. No one invests near 7 figures to not turn it around. Maybe they have some ridiculous 6 year plan? Maybe in 2011 they will release 7 years of comics at once? Er, sorry, pamphlets