Valiant Newsstand Edition Question

[mrwoogieman]

Aren't there a handful of dedicated completists that have a handful of newsstands around here?

That collect and trade them?

I have 62 different newsstand issues at present and six duplicate issues; but who's counting?

[GJB]

So far I have the X-O #43 at 2.50 and Bloodshot #31 at 2.50. Stuff like this makes collecting Valiant comics so cool.

[Escaflown4]

Dan can you please post up some scans of BS #30 and 32 newsstands? I would like to get some pics for reference.

[400yrs]

So far I have the X-O #43 at 2.50 and Bloodshot #31 at 2.50. Stuff like this makes collecting Valiant comics so cool.

Eh. Not so much.

[sonicdan]

Dan can you please post up some scans of BS #30 and 32 newsstands? I would like to get some pics for reference.

Here ya go!

[GJB]

So far I have the X-O #43 at 2.50 and Bloodshot #31 at 2.50. Stuff like this makes collecting Valiant comics so cool.

Eh. Not so much.

Each to their own my friend. But thanks for your input.

[Escaflown4]

Dan can you please post up some scans of BS #30 and 32 newsstands? I would like to get some pics for reference.

Here ya go!

Thanks!

[Slashes-With-Claws]

Most of these sell for not much more than a dollar, so would this variant affect price in any noticeable way?

-----

[mrwoogieman]

Most of these sell for not much more than a dollar, so would this variant affect price in any noticeable way?

It may, but as I stated previously, I believe the impact will be on the other newsstand variants prices moving down rather than these issues moving up.

[Zero]

Most of these sell for not much more than a dollar, so would this variant affect price in any noticeable way?

It may, but as I stated previously, I believe the impact will be on the other newsstand variants prices moving down rather than these issues moving up.

I think the other newsstands may fall a bit, but I believe these price variants will jump quite a bit once a complete list is determined.

Really, I think it all comes down to the checklist. These will spike if/when Greg adds them to the list.

[Elveen]

Most of these sell for not much more than a dollar, so would this variant affect price in any noticeable way?

It may, but as I stated previously, I believe the impact will be on the other newsstand variants prices moving down rather than these issues moving up.

I think the other newsstands may fall a bit, but I believe these price variants will jump quite a bit once a complete list is determined.

Really, I think it all comes down to the checklist. These will spike if/when Greg adds them to the list.

so if Greg waits a bit to add them to the checklist..... then suddenly has a bunch of them to sell..... that would be what?

Insider trading?

[X-O HoboJoe]

Most of these sell for not much more than a dollar, so would this variant affect price in any noticeable way?

It may, but as I stated previously, I believe the impact will be on the other newsstand variants prices moving down rather than these issues moving up.

I think the other newsstands may fall a bit, but I believe these price variants will jump quite a bit once a complete list is determined.

Really, I think it all comes down to the checklist. These will spike if/when Greg adds them to the list.

so if Greg waits a bit to add them to the checklist..... then suddenly has a bunch of them to sell..... that would be what?

Insider trading?

That would be Standard Operating Proceedure in the comic-book dealer world.

Wouldn't worry too much about that tho . . . I've seen Greg's man-cave and he'd have to dump slabbed Pre-Uni's to make room for BQ books and that's just not gonna happen.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I'm surprised, actually, that y'all didn't notice these earlier....

[Escaflown4]

I'm surprised, actually, that y'all didn't notice these earlier....

Well I did know about the newsstand editions that some of these books have, but the ones I saw in the past had the same price like the Visitors, so I never really paid much attention to them. It wasn't until I was trying to piece together two complete runs of Bloodshots that I noticed it. The paper stock felt different so that tipped me off at first before I saw the price difference.

[greg]

Wouldn't worry too much about that tho . . . I've seen Greg's man-cave and he'd have to dump slabbed Pre-Uni's to make room for BQ books and that's just not gonna happen.

Hey! You... yeah... you Solar #10s... get outta here!

I gotta make room for the X-O bike!

[greg]

The question of Direct vs. Newsstand is a larger question for the industry.

Valiant is not the only publisher with this scenario...
it goes back at least as far as the late 1970s with Marvel and D.C.

There are many Marvel & DC books that also have different cover prices
for newsstand vs. direct vs. Canadian markets.
(Some publishers had "price variations" on their books even earlier. 10cent vs. 12cent vs. 15cent)

Except for the Marvel 30-cent and 35-cent limited area test market issues (late 1970s),
there hasn't been a lot of industry differentiation made for direct vs. newsstand.

It's entirely possible that someday collectors will put a large emphasis on which version
they are buying/selling, but so far, that day hasn't come apart from a few exceptions.
Even those exceptions aren't clear on which book is more valuable...
for example Amazing Spider-man v2 #36 (the 9/11 tribute) has the all black cover
either with or without the UPC box on the front. It's pretty obvious even
from a really small scan which book you're getting, but I'm not sure that
all collectors agree that they prefer the "with" or "without" UPC version.
The "without" UPC version is nicer, no distracting UPC box on the 9/11 tribute.
The "with" UPC version is probably less common, since newsstand copies
were probably harder to come by in 2001/2002.

The same is true of the "key Moderns", such as Amazing Spider-man #300.
Does the market differentiate between the UPC bar code vs. the Spider-man head in the UPC box?
Not that I'm aware of. It might someday. It might already, but I haven't noticed it.

In other words, my guess is that the collecting community as a whole will eventually decide
what to do in the "direct" vs. "newsstand" situation for the larger publishers,
and that decision (if there is any concensus) will probably hold sway over Valiant as well.

We're already forcing the issue a bit with the Visitor vs. Valiant #1, #2, and Destroyer #0 books
because they do have a different cover price and have proven illusive.
Some non-Valiant collectors are taking note of the price differences on eBay.
I don't know if Marvel and DC collectors are sizing up the "which do I prefer" question
for their own collections based on the estimated print runs of each.
I suspect that if some books are significantly harder to find than their counterparts,
those books will have some sort of premium value.
I'm not sure how much though... my guess is that it will be less than "double"
whatever the going rate is for the other book... perhaps based on the ratio.

In a similar mode, the variants being produced today at 5:1 or 50:1 seem
to have a slight premium, but that premium doesn't always reflect the ratio.
Some books that are 10:1 variants only sell for about double the regular price.

Personally, I like the newsstand copies of the other Valiant books,
but only at about cover price for newsstand.
These same books are books that I would normally pay $0.50 each
(if I bought them at all) as direct editions, so you might say
that newsstand is worth around 4times or 5times as much to me.

...and since I'm notoriously cheap you might also conclude that newsstand books
are probably worth 10 to 20 times as much to some collectors.
(Others generally pay more than I do for just about everything Valiant related,
because I win about 5% of the things I bid for on eBay.
My snipes almost never execute because my bid is too low.)

I agree with mrwoogieman, though, in that I would expect the price of the $2.50 variants
to drop significantly if the interest in newsstand copies increases.
The market probably won't be able to sustain high prices for otherwise common issues.

For example, Spawn #1 with UPC jumped to $100 each in a matter of weeks a while back,
...but currently, I think it's easy to find for about $5. It couldn't sustain the increase.

[Escaflown4]

I agree with mrwoogieman, though, in that I would expect the price of the $2.50 variants
to drop significantly if the interest in newsstand copies increases.
The market probably won't be able to sustain high prices for otherwise common issues.

For example, Spawn #1 with UPC jumped to $100 each in a matter of weeks a while back,
...but currently, I think it's easy to find for about $5. It couldn't sustain the increase.

I guess it'll depend if the supply can satisfy the demand. Zeph did pointed out that these Valiant newsstands came out during the time when it was dying off. These were really books most people could have bought, read and trashed out. I'm not surprised people held onto the Spawn #1 UPC as everyone back then thought it could potentially be worth something someday. The Marvel bronze age price variants have still managed to hold on to their value simply because the supply could not meet the demand. No one cared about price variants back in the days, so most of the copies were all trashed. As of right now, the Valiant price variants are still uncommon finds especially with the Valiant vs Visitor and Destroyer #0 books. We've known about them for a while, yet they're still very hard to come by.

[greg]

That's true but there are 367 different Marvel 30cent and 35cent variants.

They don't all matter that much. Some are barely collectible at all.

The ones that "do matter" are the ones that are books that matter anyway.
Star Wars #1 - #4, Iron Fist #14... etc.

The fact that there's a rare 35cent variant for Kid Colt Outlaw #220
doesn't mean much unless you're a collector of Kid Colt Outlaw...
or you just really want these 35cent variants, regardless of issue.

When it comes to newsstand versions of the later Valiant books,
it will be a "hard sell" to point out the redeeming qualities of most of them...
because "hard to find in newsstand" is basically the only redeeming quality.



It's a little like saying, "Birthquake sucked, so be sure to get the rare ones."
(Which immediately reminds me of the Deathmate Gold issues, for some reason.)

[Escaflown4]

That's true but there are 367 different Marvel 30cent and 35cent variants.

They don't all matter that much. Some are barely collectible at all.

The ones that "do matter" are the ones that are books that matter anyway.
Star Wars #1 - #4, Iron Fist #14... etc.

The fact that there's a rare 35cent variant for Kid Colt Outlaw #220
doesn't mean much unless you're a collector of Kid Colt Outlaw...
or you just really want these 35cent variants, regardless of issue.

When it comes to newsstand versions of the later Valiant books,
it will be a "hard sell" to point out the redeeming qualities of most of them...
because "hard to find in newsstand" is basically the only redeeming quality.



It's a little like saying, "Birthquake sucked, so be sure to get the rare ones."
(Which immediately reminds me of the Deathmate Gold issues, for some reason.)

Yup what you say is true, but then there's no denying that there's quite a number of Valiant completist amongst us. These collectors could only grow in numbers when VEI starts going full gear with its releases. As you said, the Birthquake books sucked. No one hoarded them back then and I can imagine most of them were trashed. Chances are the supply of the price variants would be exceptionally low.

[JustCallMeAric]

I think they matter to super completists. Not to me, I just want to complete my regular set.

[mrwoogieman]

I have some more thoughts:

1) The value of any given variant should be tied to the collectibility of the issue itself;

2) The value of the Vis v. Val U and the Destroyer are artificially inflated because of their presence on the checklist (that is, their values are out of proportion to the worth of the regular version of the issue in question);

3) The value of the price variant newsstand issues should be higher than newsstands which are different only due to the UPC box differences;

4) Last issue newsstands should be worth more than other newsstands because the underlying issue is more valuable.

[GJB]

This is how I interpret it. It's Valiant, it's a variation and it's hard to find. Same can be said for Turok Evolution and the EB games variant. It's not a super fantastic read, but it is Valiant/Acclaim, it's a variant and damn hard to find.

Add in all the Valiant fans on this board who have been bitten by the bug and you've got yourself a premium item.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

The question of Direct vs. Newsstand is a larger question for the industry.

Valiant is not the only publisher with this scenario...
it goes back at least as far as the late 1970s with Marvel and D.C.

There are many Marvel & DC books that also have different cover prices
for newsstand vs. direct vs. Canadian markets.
(Some publishers had "price variations" on their books even earlier. 10cent vs. 12cent vs. 15cent)

Except for the Marvel 30-cent and 35-cent limited area test market issues (late 1970s),
there hasn't been a lot of industry differentiation made for direct vs. newsstand.

It's entirely possible that someday collectors will put a large emphasis on which version
they are buying/selling, but so far, that day hasn't come apart from a few exceptions.
Even those exceptions aren't clear on which book is more valuable...
for example Amazing Spider-man v2 #36 (the 9/11 tribute) has the all black cover
either with or without the UPC box on the front. It's pretty obvious even
from a really small scan which book you're getting, but I'm not sure that
all collectors agree that they prefer the "with" or "without" UPC version.
The "without" UPC version is nicer, no distracting UPC box on the 9/11 tribute.
The "with" UPC version is probably less common, since newsstand copies
were probably harder to come by in 2001/2002.

The same is true of the "key Moderns", such as Amazing Spider-man #300.
Does the market differentiate between the UPC bar code vs. the Spider-man head in the UPC box?
Not that I'm aware of. It might someday. It might already, but I haven't noticed it.

In other words, my guess is that the collecting community as a whole will eventually decide
what to do in the "direct" vs. "newsstand" situation for the larger publishers,
and that decision (if there is any concensus) will probably hold sway over Valiant as well.

We're already forcing the issue a bit with the Visitor vs. Valiant #1, #2, and Destroyer #0 books
because they do have a different cover price and have proven illusive.
Some non-Valiant collectors are taking note of the price differences on eBay.
I don't know if Marvel and DC collectors are sizing up the "which do I prefer" question
for their own collections based on the estimated print runs of each.
I suspect that if some books are significantly harder to find than their counterparts,
those books will have some sort of premium value.
I'm not sure how much though... my guess is that it will be less than "double"
whatever the going rate is for the other book... perhaps based on the ratio.

In a similar mode, the variants being produced today at 5:1 or 50:1 seem
to have a slight premium, but that premium doesn't always reflect the ratio.
Some books that are 10:1 variants only sell for about double the regular price.

Personally, I like the newsstand copies of the other Valiant books,
but only at about cover price for newsstand.
These same books are books that I would normally pay $0.50 each
(if I bought them at all) as direct editions, so you might say
that newsstand is worth around 4times or 5times as much to me.

...and since I'm notoriously cheap you might also conclude that newsstand books
are probably worth 10 to 20 times as much to some collectors.
(Others generally pay more than I do for just about everything Valiant related,
because I win about 5% of the things I bid for on eBay.
My snipes almost never execute because my bid is too low.)

I agree with mrwoogieman, though, in that I would expect the price of the $2.50 variants
to drop significantly if the interest in newsstand copies increases.
The market probably won't be able to sustain high prices for otherwise common issues.

For example, Spawn #1 with UPC jumped to $100 each in a matter of weeks a while back,
...but currently, I think it's easy to find for about $5. It couldn't sustain the increase.

Couple of points:

1. The 30 and 35 cent test market issues are entirely and completely seperate and independent from the Direct Market of the time. In fact, the 1976 30 cent issues were printed before the first "known" direct market copies. The test issues were distributed in the exact same way as comics had been for 40 years prior: to newsstands across the country. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the Direct Market, so it's important not to muddy the waters with these two seperate issues.

2. The very first "known" variants for the Direct Market are from Feb, 1977 issues (more on that later.) DC did not differentiate between Direct Market and Newsstand issues until 1979-1980, but Marvel attempted various cover schemes with the price and UPC box to differentiate between Direct and Newsstand copies until they finally settled on the "small diamond", shown here, for May-June 1979 and all subsequent issues through 1982:



This "small diamond" as it is known was in use on ALL Direct Market Marvel books by the July, 1979 "cover date" at latest. For the most part, the small diamonds only had the cover price and issue number, but a few exceptions, including Avengers #185, included the month.

As well, until Jan-Feb 1980, the UPC code was printed with a diagonal line through it, like so:



HOWEVER....May-July 1979 is not the first time that Marvel used the "small diamond." There ARE in existence "small diamond" copies of Tarzan #2 (30 cents) and Tarzan #15 (35 cents.) I know, because I have both of them. How many other "small diamonds" may exist before the universal unveiling on the May-July 1979 cover dated Marvels, I do not know, but if the Tarzans exist, so can others.

3. Newsstand Marvels had had the "square box price", shown here:



since basically 1972, with the then-new price box format, which included the Curtis Circulation Company seal (the main distributor of newsstand comics for decades), the price, the month, the issue number, and the title code, a format that would remain essentially unchanged until the debut of the "Direct Market UPC" in 1994.

4. It is important to know that the Direct Market did not come about until the mid-1970's, as a direct (no pun intended) result of Phil Seuling selling Marvel and DC on the idea that comics could be bought directly from the publishers, at a steeper discount, but with no return priveleges. Seuling had pitched the idea at DC and Marvel several years earlier, and, though accounts are in question, it's likely that Marvel was the first to go with the idea, and was certainly the first to try to print copies that were distinguishable from newsstand copies, so that dealers weren't sending back direct copies under newsstand accounts. Thus was born "the big diamond", shown here:



There is some confusion as to whether these were printed for WHITMAN 3-packs, and many people still believe this is the case, but with further research, the best guess is that these books are, in fact, early experiements with Direct Market distinguishability, and this is given further weight with the adoption of the "small diamond" books about 2 years later.

For many years, Robert Overstreet made the contention that any "large diamond" books were reprints, and while this was certainly true of Star Wars, whose massive popularity brought endless reprintings of #1-6 to the market, this certainly would not make any sense given the broader context of the books WITH large diamonds. Why would a book like Spectacular Spiderman #3, issued three months before the Star Wars situation, be reprinted after the fact? And Spectacular Spiderman #3 isn't the only large diamond. Several Marvel books with cover date Feb 1977-May 1979 have large diamonds, including the only known X-Men large diamond, #118.

This follows, because X-Men was NOT a "hot" title until about the middle of 1978, so there would be no reason for Direct Market dealers (so the thinking goes) to order lots of them, or differentiate between them, whereas Spiderman, FF, Hulk, were all VERY popular at the time, and hence, more likely to NEED a differentiation.

Star Wars "large diamonds" are almost always reprints. It is not known if there is a Star Wars issue WITH a large diamond AND a UPC code that is NOT labeled "reprint", but if there is, it's likely these were printed specifically for the young Direct Market.



It is currently unknown exactly what was printed for where, but it is surmised that these are the situations based on available evidence:

"square box" standard Marvels were distributed, as always, to newsstands across the country, throughout this time period.

"large diamond" WITH UPC code was likely printed specifically for the Direct Market.

"large diamond" WITHOUT UPC code was likely printed specifically for Whitman 3-packs, as they would not need a UPC code, since one would be on the bag, and additional UPC codes would confuse inventory computers and/or not "scan", not being in the system.

"small diamond", with or without UPC code, printed BEFORE May, 1979 is almost certainly a Direct Market copy.

DC comics, as noted, did not distinguish between Direct Market and Newsstand until 1979, and was company wide when they did.

5. Direct Market copies from 1977-1979 are, of course, quite rare when compared to newsstand copies of the day, because the DM was very young, and still in testing stage. It wasn't until late 1978 that DC & Marvel realized this could work, and made the changes company wide in early 1979 to accomodate the DM. It remains to be seen whether this will affect their values as a seperate area of collectibles; as of yet, it has not.

6. Throughout the 1980's, the market in general placed no premium on one or the other version. In general, collectors seem to prefer Direct Market versions, the conventional wisdom being that they were sold to dealers who took care of them, and they weren't manhandled by every passing child, like the newsstand versions were. But there was no market value differentiation on those books. In fact, more than once in the 1980's, Jim Shooter wrote about these differences, and stated that, at that time, there was no differentiation in demand between them.

7. Newsstand copies are generally no more or less common than DM copies, throughout the 1980's and on into about 1993. Starting with the collapse of the market in 1994-1995, newsstands began to carry fewer and fewer comics. This can be attributed to the crash, or it can be attributed to the arrival of the internet to the general public; no one can say for sure. What we DO know is that newsstand orders took a severe nosedive throughout 1994, so that, by 1995-96, they were virtually non-existant. The larger newsstands in the country still carried comics, but, by 1997-1998, the ratio of DM to newsstand copies was likely 10-1. That ratio has continued to today, and it's very likely that the vast majority of comic books printed in the last 10 years simply do not have a newsstand counterpart. The newsstand still exists, and comics are printed in newsstand format, but it is on about the same scale as the young Direct Market was in late 1976-late 1978.

This has, of course, created some SPECTACULAR rarities in terms of variations, including the aforementioned Valiant price variants, as well as many Marvel and DC variants, some of the more famous being the "25 cent" or "9 cent" books that Marvel printed in the early 00's, that had regular priced counterparts (Uncanny X-Men #423, Daredevil #41, FF #60)...and, of course, the "DC Universe" books, which were printed specifically for multi-packs in the mid-90's.

As more and more research is done, and the overall picture becomes clearer about what exists in what format, more people will become interested in these different markets, and demand should increase.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

That's true but there are 367 different Marvel 30cent and 35cent variants.

They don't all matter that much. Some are barely collectible at all.

I don't see that, especially for the FAR rarer 35 cent versions. All the 30 and 35 cent variations that I've ever bid on sold for a premium...sometimes a HUGE premium...over the "regular" books.

The ones that "do matter" are the ones that are books that matter anyway.
Star Wars #1 - #4, Iron Fist #14... etc.

The fact that there's a rare 35cent variant for Kid Colt Outlaw #220
doesn't mean much unless you're a collector of Kid Colt Outlaw...
or you just really want these 35cent variants, regardless of issue.

Which makes a 35 cent copy of Kid Colt Outlaw #220 sell for $435, whereas the regular version is $1....or less.

When it comes to newsstand versions of the later Valiant books,
it will be a "hard sell" to point out the redeeming qualities of most of them...
because "hard to find in newsstand" is basically the only redeeming quality.



It's a little like saying, "Birthquake sucked, so be sure to get the rare ones."
(Which immediately reminds me of the Deathmate Gold issues, for some reason.)

Collectors are odd creatures. Something can be ignored en masse for decades....like the 30 and 35 cent Marvels....and then, once someone finds out that OTHER people want them, suddenly THEY have to have them, too.

This will doubtless fuel demand for these issues, regardless of the quality of the books themselves. Quality of the books means nothing now that time has passed.

Batman #100 SUCKS canal water. It's stupid, silly, trite, and pointless.

And a CGC 9.4 copy will probably sell for $10,000.

Go figure.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

And finally (for now)...I think it's OUTFREAKINSTANDING that "we" have discovered something COMPLETELY undiscovered before about these books.

In 2008, "we" can say that there's something NEW about Valiant that we haven't talked to DEATH in the last 6 years (or more.)

Y'all who discovered them...? Take a bow. You deserve all the credit you get.