Shooter and the new Valiant

rictor · Post by **rictor** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:54 pm

Rich Johnston has made repeated references in Lying in the Gutters that there is a lot of internal strife about Shooter's return.

Shooter was brought back to boost Legion's sales and build excitement because next year is the Legion's 50th Anniversary, but a number of the editors are opposed to him being brought back. Reportedly, DC had considered bringing Shooter back a few years ago, but the editorial opposition prevented it from happening. It seems that this time Levitz and most of senior management at DC are sticking by Shooter and telling the editors to deal with it and keep it professional because DC is really hoping to return Legion to its former glory and shine a spotlight on the property.

Because so many of the editorial staff have issues with Shooter either from personal experience or just by reputation, and because Shooter is very open about his opinions, there is a lot of speculation that personal animosities will blow up and DC may be put in a situation where if they keep Shooter, they will lose some important editors.

BloodOfHeroes · Post by **BloodOfHeroes** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:05 pm

rictor wrote:Rich Johnston has made repeated references in Lying in the Gutters that there is a lot of internal strife about Shooter's return.

I got to overhear Paul Levitz and Shooter talk for almost an hour in NYC, back as Shooter was gearing up for U2K. I was interviewing Shooter when Levitz walked up with his son. I graciously turned off the tape recorder, but MAN the stories they told. Levitz introduced Shooter to his son as, "The man who wrote Legion before Daddy. And did it better."

And then I watched Walt Simonson show Shooter some of his NEW GODS artwork in progress and listen attentively as Shooter talked to him about composition and structure. Those were two legends deferring to an even bigger one. It was so cool to witness.

BoH

rictor · Post by **rictor** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:06 pm

Wow, I am so jealous of you. That had to be awesome.

user1463 · Post by **user1463** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:08 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:To tell you the truth Valiant wasn't "Valiant "shortly after Jim left. So trying to save issues and story lines that were sub par as well as the later books that got downright ridiculous doesn't appeal to me much. If most of the stories would have been worthy of pre unity status I would agree, keep the continuity intact. This is not the case though, so scrapping the garbage (and there is a ton of it) and starting again somewhere around Unity makes much more sense to me.
Forget Unity. Starting after Unity doesn't make any sense because then we have to go over new resolutions for stories that were already resolved.

Not really. The new stories could be set in 2007/08 with the pre-Unity stories serving as the backdrop. Perhaps an approach similar to Superman Returns?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:13 pm

user1463 wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
Daniel Jackson wrote:To tell you the truth Valiant wasn't "Valiant "shortly after Jim left. So trying to save issues and story lines that were sub par as well as the later books that got downright ridiculous doesn't appeal to me much. If most of the stories would have been worthy of pre unity status I would agree, keep the continuity intact. This is not the case though, so scrapping the garbage (and there is a ton of it) and starting again somewhere around Unity makes much more sense to me.
Forget Unity. Starting after Unity doesn't make any sense because then we have to go over new resolutions for stories that were already resolved.
Not really. The new stories could be set in 2007/08 with the pre-Unity stories serving as the backdrop. Perhaps an approach similar to Superman Returns?

But then the background would need to be filled out with new stories that would mostly replace the ones that already came out.

Yeah, the new universe could pick up in the present, but instead of ignoring everything after Unity, use it to tell new stories.

Don't dwell on the bad, and rejoice in the good.

If they ignore seemingly bad stories, they might be loosing the chance to tell good and interesting stories.

BloodOfHeroes · Post by **BloodOfHeroes** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:13 pm

rictor wrote:Wow, I am so jealous of you. That had to be awesome.

That was my first and all-time favorite con. The pro list included:
Shooter
JJ
BWS
Sean Chen
Mike Bair
Bob Wiacek
Sal Velluto & Bob Almond (VH-2 Bloodshot)
Steve Geiger (VH-2 Bloodshot)

Neil Vokes & Michael Avon Oeming (VH-2 Ninjak)
Brian Augustyn (V-2 X-O)
Walt Simonson

And LEGENDS
Martin Nodell
Dan Carlo
Carmine Infantino

and so on and so forth. Paying Customers included Paul Levitz & Mark Waid

I was such a con n00b. I got no sketches, but I recorded some amazing Bloodshot-related interviews, most of which are available on my fansite.

BoH, WAY off topic now

rictor · Post by **rictor** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:14 pm

user1463 wrote:
Not really. The new stories could be set in 2007/08 with the pre-Unity stories serving as the backdrop. Perhaps an approach similar to Superman Returns?

Ooh, I hadn't looked at it that way before. Granted, wiping aways years of multiple comic series is a bit tougher than 2 movies, but this approach does have some potential.

user1463 · Post by **user1463** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:20 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:Don't dwell on the bad, and rejoice in the good.

That's what the Superman Returns approach is.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:26 pm

user1463 wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:Don't dwell on the bad, and rejoice in the good.
That's what the Superman Returns approach is.

Sure, but I don't think it works with VALIANT.

Cherry picking continuity didn't work the first 20 times they did it, so why would it work now?

The Harbinger · Post by **The Harbinger** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:32 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote: But then the background would need to be filled out with new stories that would mostly replace the ones that already came out.

Yeah, the new universe could pick up in the present, but instead of ignoring everything after Unity, use it to tell new stories.

Don't dwell on the bad, and rejoice in the good.

If they ignore seemingly bad stories, they might be loosing the chance to tell good and interesting stories.

I understand what you're saying MOTA, but as DJ said, Valiant wasn't really Valiant after Jim left. While I think that continuity is important to keep up with, there have been one too many trainwrecks for VEI to fix everything. Some stuff just needs to be erased completely and replaced with something better. I know it isn't what Valiant was about, but by keeping some of the ridiculous storylines that have been made, the relaunch could fail miserably. You don't want to repair a car when it's totalled. It isn't a good deal.

BloodOfHeroes · Post by **BloodOfHeroes** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:37 pm

Regardless of Shooter's involvement, when the time is right, I'd advocate a restart in the modern day. Fill in the missing years with minis, crossovers, yearbooks, whatever.

You don't ignore what happened, but you don't need to try to reconcile it from day one, either. Like Giffen's Legion "5-Year Gap," only longer and for real.

BoH

Spagg · Post by **Spagg** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:46 pm

I would love to see Shooter return. The preunity Valiant books are still some of my favorite comic books ever.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:01 pm

The Harbinger wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote: But then the background would need to be filled out with new stories that would mostly replace the ones that already came out.

Yeah, the new universe could pick up in the present, but instead of ignoring everything after Unity, use it to tell new stories.

Don't dwell on the bad, and rejoice in the good.

If they ignore seemingly bad stories, they might be loosing the chance to tell good and interesting stories.

I understand what you're saying MOTA, but as DJ said, Valiant wasn't really Valiant after Jim left. While I think that continuity is important to keep up with, there have been one too many trainwrecks for VEI to fix everything. Some stuff just needs to be erased completely and replaced with something better. I know it isn't what Valiant was about, but by keeping some of the ridiculous storylines that have been made, the relaunch could fail miserably. You don't want to repair a car when it's totalled. It isn't a good deal.

Bad stories don't always need to be replaced with new stories to pretend they never happened.

The Spider-Buggy still happened in Spider-Man continuity, they haven't done a story to replace that.

Look at Superman. Since 2000 they've been retelling his origin over and over again trying to "get it right" with replacement stories that have only made things worse.

Say that VEI decided to do replacement stories that people didn't like. Should they keep trying again and again until they did replacement stories people did like, wasting precios resources they can't afford to waste in the process? Or should they instead not dwell in the past and focus in the future?

TDarke · Post by **TDarke** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:46 pm

How many DC editors/group editors are people that Shooter fired from Marvel? I think I can count at least 3 off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more in the editorial structure I'm not aware of.

Plus, on top of that, how many people have grown up on the apocryphal Shooter stories like the one where he was responsible for the death of the artist on Master of Kung-Fu?

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:48 pm

TDarke wrote:How many DC editors/group editors are people that Shooter fired from Marvel? I think I can count at least 3 off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more in the editorial structure I'm not aware of.

Plus, on top of that, how many people have grown up on the apocryphal Shooter stories like the one where he was responsible for the death of the artist on Master of Kung-Fu?

Shooter killed a dude!

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:46 pm

Elveen wrote:
TDarke wrote:How many DC editors/group editors are people that Shooter fired from Marvel? I think I can count at least 3 off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more in the editorial structure I'm not aware of.

Plus, on top of that, how many people have grown up on the apocryphal Shooter stories like the one where he was responsible for the death of the artist on Master of Kung-Fu?
Shooter killed a dude!

Shhhh....

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:20 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
Elveen wrote:
TDarke wrote:How many DC editors/group editors are people that Shooter fired from Marvel? I think I can count at least 3 off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more in the editorial structure I'm not aware of.

Plus, on top of that, how many people have grown up on the apocryphal Shooter stories like the one where he was responsible for the death of the artist on Master of Kung-Fu?
Shooter killed a dude!
Shhhh....

<waves hand> "These are not the droids you are looking for."

Geomancer · Post by **Geomancer** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:52 pm

Regarding the question of this thread..absolutely.

I'd be all for any launch of a new superhero universe that had the same quality and tight continuity as the original Valiant. No matter who put it out.

If Jim Shooter were at the helm, I know I would get it. That would just let me know i could expect quality.

Add in the chance of seeing the return of old favorites.

A total reboot would make things far simpler. No worries deciding which point to continue stories from. Whatever licensced properties you get are the properties you have access to.

Its not that I'm against a continuation of the first few years of valiant. But the bottom line is the quality of new product that comes out and wheher it can recapture what made me a valiant fan in the 1st place.

Russfoot · Post by **Russfoot** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:31 am

ManofTheAtom wrote:Picking up after Unity is no different than picking up after XO 68, there would still be cliffhangers left to resolve.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Archer & Armstrong coming back from the Lost Land, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of their fight with the Sect from issue 0.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Magnus' death in Rai, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of Japan's fall during Unity.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Solar merging with the sun, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of when he abandoned Gayle to go fight in Unity.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of XO's dream, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of his going back to 408.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of the Harbinger killing Simon, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of Kris abandoning her son.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Magnus' death, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of his fight with Talpa.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Shadowman's jump, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of Shadowman loosing Elya.

The only comic that did NOT end with a cliffhanger was Eternal Warrior, but if they picked it up after Unity, they would have to resolve the cliffhanger of what happened in his hotel room in issue 1.

The only difference between resolving the Unity cliffhangers and resolving the last issues, is that the Unity cliffhangers have already been resolved, and in most cases by Shooter himself, while the cliffhangers from the last issues have not.

There's no need to get replacement stories for comics that already came out. It be better to get new stories that don't exist to resolve stories that need to be resolved.

You just saved me a lot of typing. I agree with you completely.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:29 am

Russfoot wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:Picking up after Unity is no different than picking up after XO 68, there would still be cliffhangers left to resolve.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Archer & Armstrong coming back from the Lost Land, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of their fight with the Sect from issue 0.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Magnus' death in Rai, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of Japan's fall during Unity.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Solar merging with the sun, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of when he abandoned Gayle to go fight in Unity.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of XO's dream, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of his going back to 408.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of the Harbinger killing Simon, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of Kris abandoning her son.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Magnus' death, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of his fight with Talpa.

Instead of resolving the cliffhanger of Shadowman's jump, they would need to resolve the cliffhanger of Shadowman loosing Elya.

The only comic that did NOT end with a cliffhanger was Eternal Warrior, but if they picked it up after Unity, they would have to resolve the cliffhanger of what happened in his hotel room in issue 1.

The only difference between resolving the Unity cliffhangers and resolving the last issues, is that the Unity cliffhangers have already been resolved, and in most cases by Shooter himself, while the cliffhangers from the last issues have not.

There's no need to get replacement stories for comics that already came out. It be better to get new stories that don't exist to resolve stories that need to be resolved.
You just saved me a lot of typing. I agree with you completely.

Oh, boy...

-slym

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:12 am

slym2none wrote:Oh, boy...

-slym

Finally, the law of averages works!!

Someone was bound to agree with me!!

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:54 am

Even Blind Squirrels find nuts

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:58 am

xodacia81 wrote:Even Blind Squirrels find nuts

Hahaha....that's cold.

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:49 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
slym2none wrote:Oh, boy...

-slym
Finally, the law of averages works!!

Someone was bound to agree with me!!

It's not that we don't sometimes agree with you, it's just that we don't agree with "I am always right, my interpretation/assumptions/characterization is the only correct way to look at things" .

Chris

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:53 pm

Exactly, CJV - I made it known not too long after I got here that I totally agree with MotA that DNV should pick up like the past twelve years have passed without comics, but life sure didn't stop in the VALIANT Universe. No, reboot, no ret-con, just pick up where things left off as best they can (my version of the KISS technique.)

BUT - I don't agree with him on how we all may get there.

-slym