VCB's To Be Shipped Wed., May 26th, 2004

[ckb]

oooohhh...how might a fella get a hold of a copy of VanHook's bible?
talk about an ultrarare set...lol

I decided before against making copies. I just didn't think it would be fair to the owners of the orginals. Regardless if it is a copy or not, producing extras will affect the value of the orginal. It would have cost 15 each to make copies unbound. If someone else wants to make them and sell them that is their choice. I still feel it would have been better to scan and post it or if making copies to have "copy" stamped on each page. Othewise down the road you will not know if it is a copy or not.

JMTC

Steve told me that he was clearly marking them as copies, and they were unbound. He may have siad this, but I missed it before it was deleted.

[myron]

what just happened???neutron bomb go off and wipe out only steve's messages???did he take his things and go home or what??

[whetteon]

I would of thought extra copies would make the originals all the more desirable. To have the auethentic copies that bob and kevin used when creating the vh1 universe is amazing. To own a copy is for your information only. Of course I can't afford the $300 to buy an original and with all the hopla about getting a copy I will be left in the dark to what the "valiant bible" is all about. Sucks to be poor

[x-omatic]

I decided before against making copies. I just didn't think it would be fair to the owners of the orginals. Regardless if it is a copy or not, producing extras will affect the value of the orginal. It would have cost 15 each to make copies unbound. If someone else wants to make them and sell them that is their choice. I still feel it would have been better to scan and post it or if making copies to have "copy" stamped on each page. Othewise down the road you will not know if it is a copy or not.

JMTC

You & several others all had a chance to scan your copies for us to read. So where are the scans? Did I miss them somewhere?

I don't care if my original copy is 'devalued'. I never plan on selling it so I don't care. VanHook said CKB could send his copy back if he thought his original was 'devalued' by him making copies for YOU, & a couple of others.

Did CKB send it back to Kevin for a refund? No.

Did you destroy your copy because it 'devalued' CKB's? No.

So what's your problem??

BTW, you might have made cheesy copies for $15 each, but I spent more to create a QUALITY copy. Don't *SQUEE* about what I have to charge to break even. You make me sound like a rip-off artist, & I don't appreciate it at all. Just be glad Kevin made you a copy, & let's leave it at that.---Steve G

My post was in no way intended to make you sound like anything. It wasn't directed at you at all. It was in responce to someone asking how to get copies of the one from Kevin. Now you are now attacking me, for no reason other than to justify your making copies that would be of better "QUALITY" than any "cheesy" copy I could have made. That is a totally false asumption. I never asked for a copy. Kevin set it to me without me knowing because of a problem with buying a Solar page. He and CKB came to agreeable terms. That is between them.

You know you have issues with trusting others. Stop throwing stones.

You can read his deleted comments here.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I can understand leaving. I can even understand stomping off in a huff....

...but deleting every single post in every thread they posted in...?

Come on, what are we, 3?

Oy.

[rf1]

For us late people, is there no way to get a copy now? I hate it when work distracts me from reading the boards.

[cinlach@aol.com]

look here's the deal from my perspective. why am i commenting?
because i'm one of the one's who are "devaluing" the layton bible.
first and foremost when steve contacted me after i had inquired about getting a copy he had one MAJOR stipulation...

there shalt not be copies sold of your copy.

which i readily and wholeheartedly agreed to. i just wanna read the damn thing. i don't wanna make any money off it. steve paid obviously a lot of money for it, i've seen the figure $300 thrown around. i didn't ask him how much he bought it for because i don't care. he paid for it. if he ends up making his money back plus turning a profit how is that bad?

and how the hell does steve selling his copy of layton's bible devalue vanhook's copy? i guarantee you that they're different in some way.
this whole board/website is for fans of the books. i'm here because i honestly love the stories they put out. i used to get jon hartz and paul fairchild (see if you know who they are) calling every month because my store sold more valiant books then any other store in the "heroes aren't hard to find" company. i sold more because i loved them and recommended them to everyone. that's the only reason i want a copy of this continuity bible.

to whoever has similiar bibles...i will guarantee you in any way you wish that my copy will NEVER, EVER end up for sale.

want a signed letter stating that i won't sell it? send me your address and see if it doesn't show up.

get off steve's *SQUEE* about this. he's not doing anything that i wouldn't do if i had been fortunate enough to have won the bible. i guess that's what irritates me...is that i could have people on my back telling me what to do with my property.

this is my one and only post on this subject. if you don't like what i've written here then feel free to say so. but i won't respond to this thread again. move on people...let it go

[n6]

This thread and others like it - with the bickering and the voting people off and the "My dick is harder than your dick" - is the reason I no longer contribute or, truth be told, visit the board. You guys should all reign it in and start talking about the comics themselves. Screw the prices and the print-runs and so on. You scared me off and I'm sure you're scaring others off. -n

[BloodOfHeroes]

This thread and others like it - with the bickering and the voting people off and the "My dick is harder than your dick" - is the reason I no longer contribute or, truth be told, visit the board. You guys should all reign it in and start talking about the comics themselves. Screw the prices and the print-runs and so on. You scared me off and I'm sure you're scaring others off. -n

Actually, I had abandoned these boards for a while for that very reason. But they're more focused on the stories and the creators, I think, than they have been in a long time.

And, as always, props to Greg--babysitter of the masses--for doing such a great job.

BoH

[Hoosierdaddy]

neutron bomb go off and wipe out only steve's messages???did he take his things and go home or what??

No.

Yes.



I'm too new to get involved in all the politics and all the *SQUEE*.

I still just wanna find a full pre-Acclaim run on EBay for a good price. LOL!

I also do NOT agree that a scan somehow devalues an original. I have scans of almost every issue. But they aren't worth a DIME as collectables. And therefore they do NOT devalue the actual books in any way.

[And for what it's worth...I did NOT scan The Bible...Valiant or otherwise! Heheheheh.]

[ckb]

For us late people, is there no way to get a copy now? I hate it when work distracts me from reading the boards.

Steve said all his 30 were spoken for an wasn't making more.

I think you just have to wait, and all 300 pages will be scanned online.

For cin, who was saying he didn't see how the copies devalued the originals, I will say this:

1. We can be reasonably sure that the two bibles are the same. From the story we got from KVH, they were created at the same time.

2. The book has questionable "value" to begin with. Certainly, the content highly sought after, but that is about to go away when it gets scanned, or copies widely distributed. There's probably a "Word" file on someone's hard drive that has the electronic version of this, and it can be manufactured as orginal with little trouble. Even a photocopy can be made to look original without much trouble.

3. Even a letter, like the one I have from KVH could be easily created if someone thought it was going to net him a few hundred $$. But this is harder than copying the bible itself, which is just on copy paper. (This is why I won't be scanning my letter).

Just my thoughts. Even the "historical" value of the originals will be diminished if forgeries become a reality.

And, to be perfectly clear, I don't understand why Steve chose to leave based on XOs comments and their differing opinions. We should be able to disagree and live with it.

Lastly, for those of you who are "scared away from the bickering" - is it so hard to ignore? Are you above not reading something when it devolves into something you are not interested in? The is ample content here outside of the bickering, and you are the ones missing out. Take a look at the CGC boards - bickering is an ART for goodness sakes. But it is the best content on the net.

[rf1]

Ah, whatever. I am also too new to these boards to be fully drawn into the politics. People are entitled to do whatever they want with their property.

I was just interested in opportunities to flesh out my limited knowledge of the Valiant Universe to give it a more real or vicarious feel. I believe that's why people enjoy Valiant, and the earlier Gold Key characters that crossed into Valiant. Whether its the well written stories, detailed art, or good character development. It gives you the feel of being drawn into it and actually experiencing that universe and its characters. Since Valiant is now a finite universe (i.e. it is not being written/drawn anymore, for the time being? :wink:), it is understandable that people would be drawn to something that would now add new information to a project that ended years ago (but is sorely missed.)

Anyway, that's my attempt at putting a positive spin on things.

[screamingdc]

This thread and others like it - with the bickering and the voting people off and the "My dick is harder than your dick" - is the reason I no longer contribute or, truth be told, visit the board. You guys should all reign it in and start talking about the comics themselves. Screw the prices and the print-runs and so on. You scared me off and I'm sure you're scaring others off. -n

wow, a message board where not everybody gets along. i'm surprised. every other message board i visit everybody sits together and sings campfire songs. seriously though, the bickering is just part of the flow. we can't all agree on everything. just ignore the crap and contribute and do your part to improve the site.... Greg weeds out the rest.

[x-omatic]

oooohhh...how might a fella get a hold of a copy of VanHook's bible?
talk about an ultrarare set...lol

Just for the record. This is the message that I replied to. It was directly after someone mentioned I had a copy of Kevins. My comments were never directed at Steve. He then vebally attacked me as if I was posting about him and made false asumptions about my intention.


Thanks CKB for posting your comments to clearify things.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

This thread and others like it - with the bickering and the voting people off and the "My dick is harder than your dick" - is the reason I no longer contribute or, truth be told, visit the board. You guys should all reign it in and start talking about the comics themselves. Screw the prices and the print-runs and so on. You scared me off and I'm sure you're scaring others off. -n

Not to put too fine a point on it, but what does it matter what other people talk about? If you don't want to talk about prices and print runs and so on...then....ya know....don't. If other people like to talk about it, why begrudge them that opportunity? It's no one's place to tell other people what they should be talking about, and that they can't talk about prices and print runs, etc. Bickering, fine, no problem....but bickering is easy to ignore, and complaining about it publicly doesn't do anything but create more ill will.

Everyone who is a member of the boards can contribute anything, on any subject, that they wish, limited only by Greg's desire to keep a relatively 'hostility free' board. Anyone saying 'you focus too much on this particular aspect of Valiant/Comics/Everything, or that particular aspect and I don't like it' is out of line. Period. Telling everyone what they 'should and should not' be talking about is out of line. Period. If YOU don't wish to talk about it...don't talk about it! Simple.

If chatting about stuff that isn't your cup of tea is 'scaring you off'...well, then, methinks the problem lies not with the chatters, no? You talk about what you want to talk about...let everyone else talk about what they want to talk about....and everyone's a LOT more happy.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

And with regards to the 'bible'....

Look, the only way to keep information to yourself, and to control the distribution of said, is to either (A) not distribute it; or (B) copyright it. Since the owners of the copyright of this material (I ASSUME) AREN'T any of the people involved, option (B) is not viable.

That leaves option (A). Now....you can exact promises, threaten, cajole, or whatever you want to keep the people you give the information to to not spread it about....but that's it. If you're not the copyright holder, you have no legal recourse to stop people from spreading the information. Once it's out there...it's OUT there...you need to understand that going IN, that once you release it to someone else...it's entirely out of your hands what THEY decide to do with it!.

That doesn't stop you from politely asking that it NOT be distributed...but you have no right to *SQUEE* about it if it is. That's just common sense. If the recipient is a man or woman of their word, GREAT! But if they then, for WHATEVER REASON, decide to distibute more copies...there's NOTHING you can do about it, and complaining about it won't change a thing.

As for 'devaluing originals'....the VALUE of this material is that it's INFORMATION...it's value is not in it's tangibility as a 'collectible', but in the information it contains. Therefore, as with ALL information, the more it's distributed, the less value it will have, until ultimately it is free. That's the nature of information. IF the 'originals' could be marked as such, and identified, then yes, THOSE copies could retain their value as a TANGIBLE property...but only if it was obvious that they were, indeed, the 'originals' (which, truth be told, should NOT be hard to obtain...a couple of well placed signatures, in distinctive ink, on the item itself should be enough to tell the difference.)

Look at the Cancelled Comics Cavalcade from DC in '78....it's just the Xeroxed (that's the correct word, that's what they had back then. ) copies of the unpublished last issues of several books that were cancelled in '78....and limited to 35 copies. Does anyone believe, for a second, that there are STILL only 35 copies in existence? Of course not...those things have been copied several times, by collectors who quietly want a copy, on the sly, just like these bibles. Is there a way to tell the originals from the copies? Sure, the copy quaity is LESS on the copies, natch. But, the production quality was so low (they were only made to secure copyright for those issues) that they are EASY to reproduce. And, honestly...when are the times that you'll see an 'original' copy next to a 'copied' copy?

Look at the price guide, as another for instance. Greg could keep it proprietary (as, indeed, many collectibles guide websites do) and force people to pay for it...but there's nothing to stop anyone, once they HAVE the information, from copying it and sharing it with other people. Not a thing. So, Greg, like many smart people have done, decided to make the information free, as it is intangible and easily disseminated anyways.

It's just the nature of information, and recognizing that is the first step towards tranquility.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

...is that i could have people on my back telling me what to do with my property.

That's right....and once Steve sends out those copies, they are no longer his property, and the new owners can do whatevery they like with THEIR property...

Unless, of course, it isn't Steve's (o even KVH's) property (the information, esp copyrighted) to begin with. Not saying it is or it isn't, but that's one of the reasons I can't make copies of the latest issue of X-Men that I bought and sell them to others for 50 cents each....I mean, the copy I bought is my property, right? Yes, but ONLY THAT ONE COPY. I didn't buy RIGHTS when I bought that copy.

VERY important distinction.

I'm NOT saying this is the case, I haven't seen one of these bibles. BUT...we're dealing with characters that are owned by SOMEONE, and apparently not by anyone here, so the likelihood of the info itself being copyrighted is high.

[BloodOfHeroes]

One can argue over what's been done in the past or whatever, but just cuz someone got away with it in the past is not the same as having the right to do so now. Just as the music industry came after THOSE file swappers, expect to see something similar from the comics industry. My money's on DC being first, as they're part of the Time-Warner behemoth.

Copyright violation is still copyright violation, however you may want to rationalize it.

BoH

[dino]

hmm, crazy stuff.

I think the comments since steve left have been pretty good. The bible will be made into a pdf and the original copies will be devalued no matter what happens. Steve made everyone who bought a 'copy' agree not to sell them or make more copies. He was going to mark them clearly as copies.

No matter what happens the KVH and BL versions are always going to hold much greater value to valiant completists (I would be one of those).

I liked steve, I hope he comes back.

[justin]

I received my copy today. I might have secured a copy from a former penciler from valiant. If that is the case, someone my have the one I just got from Steve for 30 bucks like I paid for it. I have bound it and photocopied a new cover onto heavy card stock, so it will last.

-A

[RyanMcLelland]

Pregunta...

Does anyone have the bible in digital format? Is anyone planning on scanning or retyping?

Wondering...but wondering for a very good reason.

Ryan

[x-omatic]

Pregunta...

Does anyone have the bible in digital format? Is anyone planning on scanning or retyping?

Wondering...but wondering for a very good reason.

Ryan

We can't help you Ryan unitl you spill the beans on the "Shooter" project that has been "in the works" for the past year.

[RyanMcLelland]

There's no spilling the beans on what is not there. Shrug. It's not my deal, I'm at the mercy of those involved.

This, however, there is a great reason for.

[wrunow]

Ryan, I believe the agreement that we made with VK was not to sell, copy, or whatever the bible, My suggestion is to PM him and see if he will help you out here.

[DawgPhan]

bump