Notable shooter quotes and the new HCs

[greg]

Read the comic.

Solar sent the heroes and Erica's people... when did he send Turok anywhere?

Solar "We've got to send the natives of the Lost Land somewhere!"

Geoff "It's too late -- I can hear the screams! It --"

After that the blackhole destroys the Lost Land and there is no mention whatsoever of the natives again... so,again I ask, WHEN did Solar have time to send them anywhere?

Were you guys to bother to open the comics once in awhile, we wouldn't have these pointless debates. Instead, we'd all be talking using the same information instead of wasting time getting you up to date on the facts.

In X-O Manowar #14, when we see Turok arrive in 1987, all we see is his getting sucked by the black hole. Solar has NOTHING to do with it whatsoever. Apparently, some renmant energy from Solar's bubbles were responsible for Turok and the binosaur's trip.

Your and cjv's "inconcistancies" are nothing of the sort, as Solar, who was solely responsible for sending the heroes and Erica's people out of the Lost Land, had NOTHING to do directly with Turok's trip.

Don't you see how stupid that storyline is?

Seriously. X-O Manowar #14 might have one of the best covers in the series,
but the story is built upon a NON-VALIANT foundation.

Turok was about to be destroyed by the black hole, but a "Solar bubble" saved him?
Are you kidding me? Was it drawn with the magic ink of Unity 2000?

So, for no apparent reason, he and some dinosaurs are "thrown" into 1987... for two pages.

Then all of the sudden, it's 1992 and Ken is shown in the most stereotypical way possible,
sunning himself in a thong bathing suit, then getting scared and screaming "Oh My Gawd!"

What next? How could the stupidity level keep going?

Aric arrives! Just in time to shake his head like he's auditioning for a Vidal Sassoon commercial.

Next page: Randy Cartier is wearing the weirdest pair of glasses I've ever seen.
They look like they were made as a faceguard to protect cheekbones and eyebrows.

Then what? Jurassic Park ripoff time

Ug. That's enough. X-O Manowar #14 is officially not VALIANT.

It might have a VALIANT logo. It might be "carved in stone" in ManofTheAtom's "bible of truth",
but it's too stupid to qualify as the VALIANT which I am a fan of.

VEI should erase the stupidity as soon as humanly possible.

Re-write the past, make it VALIANT... for the first time.

End rant.

I don't see how anyone can debate those facts. It's so elegant and obvious when you spell it out that way.

X-O 14 is now out of my Valiant boxes.

There's a reason I started this website 10 years ago for pre-Unity books only.

[depluto]

You're making assumptions that contradict what was established to come up with an unsupported conclusion.

... times 9,828.

[cjv]

Solar did not guide anyone's travel, their conciousness did. All he did was energize the Lost Land. The individuals chose where they wanted to go.

I've said this countless times and it still doesn't sink in. Am I saying it wrong?

You still ignore Elya.

And if Turok went throug hte blackhole, as your surmised and Greg pointed out, why did we need the giberish about the future technology altering the way he thinks? Presumably if the black hole sent him to 1987, it doesn't give a rats *SQUEE* about "how he thinks".

And if it Did, why did it send the bionoaurs to the same time? Or the...Red (was that his name) the Robot Pirate? What is so special about 1987 that everyone exposed to future technolgoy gets sent there.


Chris

[greg]

New and improved - with scans!

Don't you see how stupid that storyline is?

Seriously. X-O Manowar #14 might have one of the best covers in the series,
but the story is built upon a NON-VALIANT foundation.



Turok was about to be destroyed by the black hole, but a "Solar bubble" saved him?
Are you kidding me? Was it drawn with the magic ink of Unity 2000?


So, for no apparent reason, he and some dinosaurs are "thrown" into 1987... for two pages.

Then all of the sudden, it's 1992 and Ken is shown in the most stereotypical way possible,
sunning himself in a thong bathing suit, then getting scared and screaming "Oh My Gawd!"



What next? How could the stupidity level keep going?

Aric arrives! Just in time to shake his head like he's auditioning for a Vidal Sassoon commercial.



Next page: Randy Cartier is wearing the weirdest pair of glasses I've ever seen.
They look like they were made as a faceguard to protect cheekbones and eyebrows.



Then what? Jurassic Park ripoff time



Ug. That's enough. X-O Manowar #14 is officially not VALIANT.

It might have a VALIANT logo. It might be "carved in stone" in ManofTheAtom's "bible of truth",
but it's too stupid to qualify as the VALIANT which I am a fan of.

VEI should erase the stupidity as soon as humanly possible.

Re-write the past, make it VALIANT... for the first time.

End (new and improved) rant.

[ManofTheAtom]

You still ignore Elya.

And if Turok went throug hte blackhole, as your surmised and Greg pointed out, why did we need the giberish about the future technology altering the way he thinks? Presumably if the black hole sent him to 1987, it doesn't give a rats *SQUEE* about "how he thinks".

And if it Did, why did it send the bionoaurs to the same time? Or the...Red (was that his name) the Robot Pirate? What is so special about 1987 that everyone exposed to future technolgoy gets sent there.


Chris

I don't think Captain Red was transported to 87, but I don't recall.

I don't remember where I read the part about his being exposed to future tech being responsible. Now that I think about it it could have been in the comics or one of countless debates we had here over the years. I really don't remember.

As for Elya, if their conciousness guided their travels, maybe she was thinking about the 30th Century at the time, something she read in the archives.

[ManofTheAtom]

That's the first time I've noticed the sailboat... I mean the dinosaur in the background.

So, for no apparent reason, he and some dinosaurs are "thrown" into 1987... for two pages.

Then all of the sudden, it's 1992 and Ken is shown in the most stereotypical way possible,
sunning himself in a thong bathing suit, then getting scared and screaming "Oh My Gawd!"

Well, it wasn't all of a sudden. The first few pages are a flashback. The first arc in the Turok series took place in 87.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Then all of the sudden, it's 1992 and Ken is shown in the most stereotypical way possible,
sunning himself in a thong bathing suit, then getting scared and screaming "Oh My Gawd!"

Super hot.

Aric arrives! Just in time to shake his head like he's auditioning for a Vidal Sassoon commercial.

Or a Nair commercial....."before"....

Bart Sears has always had a feti....er, fascination with male body hair. You gotta wonder....

Next page: Randy Cartier is wearing the weirdest pair of glasses I've ever seen.
They look like they were made as a faceguard to protect cheekbones and eyebrows.

Those are granny shiek! Are you nuts??

[Daniel Jackson]

Hahaha...well, that book is forever ruined for me now.....

[ManofTheAtom]

What is so special about 1987 that everyone exposed to future technolgoy gets sent there.
Chris

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[Ryan]

Don't you see how stupid that storyline is?

Seriously. X-O Manowar #14 might have one of the best covers in the series,
but the story is built upon a NON-VALIANT foundation.

Turok was about to be destroyed by the black hole, but a "Solar bubble" saved him?
Are you kidding me? Was it drawn with the magic ink of Unity 2000?

So, for no apparent reason, he and some dinosaurs are "thrown" into 1987... for two pages.

Then all of the sudden, it's 1992 and Ken is shown in the most stereotypical way possible,
sunning himself in a thong bathing suit, then getting scared and screaming "Oh My Gawd!"

What next? How could the stupidity level keep going?

Aric arrives! Just in time to shake his head like he's auditioning for a Vidal Sassoon commercial.

Next page: Randy Cartier is wearing the weirdest pair of glasses I've ever seen.
They look like they were made as a faceguard to protect cheekbones and eyebrows.

Then what? Jurassic Park ripoff time

Ug. That's enough. X-O Manowar #14 is officially not VALIANT.

It might have a VALIANT logo. It might be "carved in stone" in ManofTheAtom's "bible of truth",
but it's too stupid to qualify as the VALIANT which I am a fan of.

VEI should erase the stupidity as soon as humanly possible.

Re-write the past, make it VALIANT... for the first time.

End rant.

Wow Greg spitting fire! I forgot he was once a solid pre-Unity absolutist.

This is what I mean when I say that there was once a broad consensus on this board on what made for 'true VALIANT' comics and when that stopped (jumped the shark). Everyone (at least 95% of the fans) wanted more of the true VALIANT.

[ManofTheAtom]

Don't you see how stupid that storyline is?

Seriously. X-O Manowar #14 might have one of the best covers in the series,
but the story is built upon a NON-VALIANT foundation.

Turok was about to be destroyed by the black hole, but a "Solar bubble" saved him?
Are you kidding me? Was it drawn with the magic ink of Unity 2000?

So, for no apparent reason, he and some dinosaurs are "thrown" into 1987... for two pages.

Then all of the sudden, it's 1992 and Ken is shown in the most stereotypical way possible,
sunning himself in a thong bathing suit, then getting scared and screaming "Oh My Gawd!"

What next? How could the stupidity level keep going?

Aric arrives! Just in time to shake his head like he's auditioning for a Vidal Sassoon commercial.

Next page: Randy Cartier is wearing the weirdest pair of glasses I've ever seen.
They look like they were made as a faceguard to protect cheekbones and eyebrows.

Then what? Jurassic Park ripoff time

Ug. That's enough. X-O Manowar #14 is officially not VALIANT.

It might have a VALIANT logo. It might be "carved in stone" in ManofTheAtom's "bible of truth",
but it's too stupid to qualify as the VALIANT which I am a fan of.

VEI should erase the stupidity as soon as humanly possible.

Re-write the past, make it VALIANT... for the first time.

End rant.

Wow Greg spitting fire! I forgot he was once a solid pre-Unity absolutist.

This is what I mean when I say that there was once a broad consensus on this board on what made for 'true VALIANT' comics and when that stopped (jumped the shark). Everyone (at least 95% of the fans) wanted more of the true VALIANT.

And I'll reiterate what I've said before about what true VALIANT means;

A key component of VALIANT is an adherence to a strong continuity. That means, in the context of this discussion, that picking and choosing what is and isn't valid is not in itself valid.

It is much like what Acclaim planned to do in 99 by having readers vote for which version of which character would continue past their version of the 99 event.

What if the majority of people want to vote to determine what is and isn't real VALIANT to before Unity and not just after?

What if the majority votes in favor of having penguins instead of against it, even though, canonically, all the penguins died when Doctor Solar and Phil first fought in the Artict?

What if the majority votes to ignore Geoff ever existed and instead vote in favor of Clay and pretending he was the Geomancer all along?

And it goes from there.

Strong continuity means that EVERYTHING happened, otherwise it becomes weak continuity. Once that is settled, it becomes a matter of determining how to best contextualize it and address it within the narrative in order to make it work along with the OTHER aspects of the VALIANT Universe that separate it from DC and Marvel, such as strong science and the like.

[Ryan]

Don't you see how stupid that storyline is?

Seriously. X-O Manowar #14 might have one of the best covers in the series,
but the story is built upon a NON-VALIANT foundation.

Turok was about to be destroyed by the black hole, but a "Solar bubble" saved him?
Are you kidding me? Was it drawn with the magic ink of Unity 2000?

So, for no apparent reason, he and some dinosaurs are "thrown" into 1987... for two pages.

Then all of the sudden, it's 1992 and Ken is shown in the most stereotypical way possible,
sunning himself in a thong bathing suit, then getting scared and screaming "Oh My Gawd!"

What next? How could the stupidity level keep going?

Aric arrives! Just in time to shake his head like he's auditioning for a Vidal Sassoon commercial.

Next page: Randy Cartier is wearing the weirdest pair of glasses I've ever seen.
They look like they were made as a faceguard to protect cheekbones and eyebrows.

Then what? Jurassic Park ripoff time

Ug. That's enough. X-O Manowar #14 is officially not VALIANT.

It might have a VALIANT logo. It might be "carved in stone" in ManofTheAtom's "bible of truth",
but it's too stupid to qualify as the VALIANT which I am a fan of.

VEI should erase the stupidity as soon as humanly possible.

Re-write the past, make it VALIANT... for the first time.

End rant.

Wow Greg spitting fire! I forgot he was once a solid pre-Unity absolutist.

This is what I mean when I say that there was once a broad consensus on this board on what made for 'true VALIANT' comics and when that stopped (jumped the shark). Everyone (at least 95% of the fans) wanted more of the true VALIANT.

And I'll reiterate what I've said before about what true VALIANT means;

A key component of VALIANT is an adherence to a strong continuity. That means, in the context of this discussion, that picking and choosing what is and isn't valid is not in itself valid.

It is much like what Acclaim planned to do in 99 by having readers vote for which version of which character would continue past their version of the 99 event.

What if the majority of people want to vote to determine what is and isn't real VALIANT to before Unity and not just after?

What if the majority votes in favor of having penguins instead of against it, even though, canonically, all the penguins died when Doctor Solar and Phil first fought in the Artict?

What if the majority votes to ignore Geoff ever existed and instead vote in favor of Clay and pretending he was the Geomancer all along?

And it goes from there.

Strong continuity means that EVERYTHING happened, otherwise it becomes weak continuity. Once that is settled, it becomes a matter of determining how to best contextualize it and address it within the narrative in order to make it work along with the OTHER aspects of the VALIANT Universe that separate it from DC and Marvel, such as strong science and the like.

I agree about strong continuity, but I don't agree with how you're applying it.

At some point value judgements have to be made, just like Dino/VEI had to make value judgements about what was worth keeping about the Valiant characters/stories when they made their reboot.

It's not about taking votes about specific parts of the stories, of course everybody will have somewhat variable opinions based on tons of factors. It's about understanding the broad strokes of what the majority of the devoted fans considered to be 'true VALIANT'. These are the things that made VALIANT unique and made people become devoted fans in the first place.

It's like if you're making a Spider-Man movie, you'd want to have a deep understanding of what the true, devoted fans considered the classic stories to be and what aspects of the character/stories made people devoted fans. And what parts of SpM's stories were ultimately forgettable and not worth including.

At the end of the day, it's a business and none of it continues unless it can create a devoted fan following. I personally think that can be done by focusing on the unique aspects of early VALIANT that made the majority of people fans and led to all that followed.

Not focusing on trying to synthesize all of the obscure continuity from when nobody was reading and the aspects that made Valiant unique were long gone.

[Chiclo]

For them to be transported to 2008 their subconciousess or conciousess would need to guide them to that particular destination.

It was said that Turok ended in 1987 because of his exposure to futuristic tech. It could be that Elya was transported to the 31st Century due to her exposure to Shadowman.

Magnus', Solar's, Geoff's, Archer's Armstrong's, Gilad's, and the Harbinger kid's transportation to 1992 was guided by their conciousness. Magnus wanted to stop Talpa, Solar wanted to return to Gayle, A&A expected to fight Mahmud, Gilad wanted to save Jillian, and the kids wanted to go back home.

How very magical.

Aric went back to 409 because he saw a bottle under the sink in the Lost Land and needed to put grease on the run.

[ManofTheAtom]

For them to be transported to 2008 their subconciousess or conciousess would need to guide them to that particular destination.

It was said that Turok ended in 1987 because of his exposure to futuristic tech. It could be that Elya was transported to the 31st Century due to her exposure to Shadowman.

Magnus', Solar's, Geoff's, Archer's Armstrong's, Gilad's, and the Harbinger kid's transportation to 1992 was guided by their conciousness. Magnus wanted to stop Talpa, Solar wanted to return to Gayle, A&A expected to fight Mahmud, Gilad wanted to save Jillian, and the kids wanted to go back home.

How very magical.

Aric went back to 409 because he saw a bottle under the sink in the Lost Land and needed to put grease on the run.

Not magic, though.

It was Solar's energy facilitating the transportation and their conscious or subconscious minds determining their destinations.

[ManofTheAtom]

I agree about strong continuity, but I don't agree with how you're applying it.

At some point value judgements have to be made, just like Dino/VEI had to make value judgements about what was worth keeping about the Valiant characters/stories when they made their reboot.

It's not about taking votes about specific parts of the stories, of course everybody will have somewhat variable opinions based on tons of factors. It's about understanding the broad strokes of what the majority of the devoted fans considered to be 'true VALIANT'. These are the things that made VALIANT unique and made people become devoted fans in the first place.

It's like if you're making a Spider-Man movie, you'd want to have a deep understanding of what the true, devoted fans considered the classic stories to be and what aspects of the character/stories made people devoted fans. And what parts of SpM's stories were ultimately forgettable and not worth including.

At the end of the day, it's a business and none of it continues unless it can create a devoted fan following. I personally think that can be done by focusing on the unique aspects of early VALIANT that made the majority of people fans and led to all that followed.

Not focusing on trying to synthesize all of the obscure continuity from when nobody was reading and the aspects that made Valiant unique were long gone.

If you ignore anything that came before, then it's no longer strong continuity. Same goes for the passage of time. You cannot ignore that either.

Indeed, in Unity 2000 Shooter made the Harbinger kids older on purpose, to show that time had passed since the start of VALIANT.

VH-1 revived today would similarly have to do that. For instance, it's been five years since Archer died and three years before Bloodshot does.

Should that be ignored in a revival?

[Ryan]

If you ignore anything that came before, then it's no longer strong continuity. Same goes for the passage of time. You cannot ignore that either.

Indeed, in Unity 2000 Shooter made the Harbinger kids older on purpose, to show that time had passed since the start of VALIANT.

VH-1 revived today would similarly have to do that. For instance, it's been five years since Archer died and three years before Bloodshot does.

Should that be ignored in a revival?

Maybe. VEI did. DMG and Alien did too.

I've never argued that VH1 needs to or should be revived in full. I've only said that the principles of VH1(especially pre-Unity) and the unique aspects that made those books great should be brought forward into the modern Valiant.

There's a million ways it could be done. Using a lot of VH1 continuity, using a little or none of VH1 continuity, at this point it doesn't make a big difference.

Maybe it wouldn't be considered 'true VH1' and it would be something of a reboot. I don't see how that matters considering a lot VH1 doesn't even conform to 'true VALIANT' in the way I'm saying, and the fact that there's already been at least 3 reboots by now.

[ManofTheAtom]

If you ignore anything that came before, then it's no longer strong continuity. Same goes for the passage of time. You cannot ignore that either.

Indeed, in Unity 2000 Shooter made the Harbinger kids older on purpose, to show that time had passed since the start of VALIANT.

VH-1 revived today would similarly have to do that. For instance, it's been five years since Archer died and three years before Bloodshot does.

Should that be ignored in a revival?

Maybe. VEI did. DMG and Alien did too.

I've never argued that VH1 needs to or should be revived in full. I've only said that the principles of VH1(especially pre-Unity) and the unique aspects that made those books great should be brought forward into the modern Valiant.

There's a million ways it could be done. Using a lot of VH1 continuity, using a little or none of VH1 continuity, at this point it doesn't make a big difference.

Maybe it wouldn't be considered 'true VH1' and it would be something of a reboot. I don't see how that matters considering a lot VH1 doesn't even conform to 'true VALIANT' in the way I'm saying, and the fact that there's already been at least 3 reboots by now.

VEI did a reboot, they had no reason to adhere to what came before.

I'm the one who said here for years that they shouldn't do one, that they should bring VH 1 back as it was in 2012, others here disagreed...

That said, VEI under Dinesh did retain the aspects that made VALIANT what it was during VH1, such as strong continuity, hard science, etc. Quantum & Woody being the obvious exception.

I DID say MORE than once that Q&W is NOT compatible with original VALIANT, but no one listened to me then either...

[Ryan]

VEI did a reboot, they had no reason to adhere to what came before.

I'm the one who said here for years that they shouldn't do one, that they should bring VH 1 back as it was in 2012, others here disagreed...

That said, VEI under Dinesh did retain the aspects that made VALIANT what it was during VH1, such as strong continuity, hard science, etc. Quantum & Woody being the obvious exception.

I DID say MORE than once that Q&W is NOT compatible with original VALIANT, but no one listened to me then either...

Yeah well now we're here, 3 reboots later. I was hoping the new owners would listen and be interested in what made so many people Valiant fans in 2000-2010. But actually they're going the opposite direction.

That said, VEI under Dinesh did retain the aspects that made VALIANT what it was during VH1, such as strong continuity, hard science, etc. Quantum & Woody being the obvious exception.

That's certainly debatable. I would say they're much more similar to 00s era Marvel than early VALIANT. Sure there's continuity, there were only like a handful of books going at once, but it never felt as tight or planned especially after the first year or so of Vh1 plotlines ran out.

Almost every modern superhero comic does a version of 'hard science' now, since all you mean by that is pseudo sciency-sounding explanations. But like Marvel, there was never a meta-plot that actually explained why the Valiant world was so different from our own. Not like early Valiant and New U, where the explanation was woven into the meta-plot from the beginning and had an effect on all the books.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah well now we're here, 3 reboots later. I was hoping the new owners would listen and be interested in what made so many people Valiant fans in 2000-2010. But actually they're going the opposite direction.

Well, not three. Two, VEI and, now, Beyond.

That's certainly debatable. I would say they're much more similar to 00s era Marvel than early VALIANT. Sure there's continuity, there were only like a handful of books going at once, but it never felt as tight or planned especially after the first year or so of Vh1 plotlines ran out.

Almost every modern superhero comic does a version of 'hard science' now, since all you mean by that is pseudo sciency-sounding explanations. But like Marvel, there was never a meta-plot that actually explained why the Valiant world was so different from our own. Not like early Valiant and New U, where the explanation was woven into the meta-plot from the beginning and had an effect on all the books.

Ah, well, no. VEI did not have a white event.