Harbinger: The Beginning ***SPOILERS Thread

[JustinOfDacia]

I Like it!!..

..everyone should get 1 copy to read and 1 copy to put away...for your kids!...

I know I will

My 13 year old daughter is reading mine too. She has never read a Valiant comic before in her life. She liked what she read so far and I think she's only made through #0 and #1!

[JustinOfDacia]

Why isn't VALIANT in all caps?

...because it's 2007, and all caps means SHOUTING!

Jim Shooter may be a visionary, but he couldn't have predicted the future of CAPITAL LETTERS!!!

LOL, all caps meant that online back in 1991 and 1992 also. But isn't that the point....that the name VALIANT is SHOUTED! If only Shooter could have predicted that his business partner would stab him in the back.

[greg]

Why isn't VALIANT in all caps?

...because it's 2007, and all caps means SHOUTING!

Jim Shooter may be a visionary, but he couldn't have predicted the future of CAPITAL LETTERS!!!

LOL, all caps meant that online back in 1991 and 1992 also.

Yes, but when your print run is greater than the number of people online (1991-92),
you can pretty much ignore the online conventions... in 2007, it's shouting.

[JustinOfDacia]

Why isn't VALIANT in all caps?

...because it's 2007, and all caps means SHOUTING!

Jim Shooter may be a visionary, but he couldn't have predicted the future of CAPITAL LETTERS!!!

LOL, all caps meant that online back in 1991 and 1992 also.

Yes, but when your print run is greater than the number of people online (1991-92),
you can pretty much ignore the online conventions... in 2007, it's shouting.

LOL Yeah, there wern't many of us online in 1991-92. I first made it online in 1992 on Bulletin Board Systems. I ran one from 1993-1996. I didn't get on the net till 95/96. Wow how the days have gone by!

[Ryan]

Finally got my 2 copies today and I had never read any of the early Harbinger stories outside of what was in the original TPB (as an aside that TPB is complete *SQUEE* without finishing the arc with Torques death.

***SPOILERS AHEAD***
***SPOILERS AHEAD***
***SPOILERS AHEAD***

A few thoughts:
- I like how Toyo's wife, Noriko (why does that name seem familiar?) doesn't correct or explain the blood on the knife to Madam Rowena. I wonder what their backstory is, they were obviously familiar with each other and Noriko kept her name in the dayplanner for the 7th.
- I have to wonder why Noriko cut herself on that particular day and why she kept that from Madam Rowena? Rowena assumed she used the knife to kill Harada but that is when Harada arrives to take Noriko home.
- It does sound as if Rowena "popped" Harada and she considers herself the first. We know chronologically the Ani-Padda boys are the first from the stories that have been printed. I wouldn't be surprised if Rowena was still "popped" in some later Retcon.
-The last page dialogue is what interests me the most.

Panel 1
(Harada arrives at Madam Rowena's, revealing that Noriko hadn't killed Harada as Rowena assumed from the bloody blade)
Harada - No. She didn't.
Noriko - Fiddlesticks.

Panel 2
(Harada and Noriko leaving, Rowena on the porch watching them leave. Noriko had brought along a teddy bear from Harada's youth as if Rowena could use it to see Harada's past actions. Very reminisciant of Unity 1 with Solar and the Wizard of Oz record that was Erica's as a young girl. Harada has quite a tight grip on the bear.)
Rowena - You should have done it. Get out of here, Toyo, you sick freak and take your chattel with you!

Panel 3
(similiar to the last panel, but this time from Rowena's POV)
Noriko - Next Year?
Rowena - If I'm still Compos Mentis.
Noriko - "Still"?

Panel 4
(Harada and Noriko flying away, hovering over a rooftop)
Harada - I Forgot what day it was till I saw your dayplanner. You cut yourself again. I wish you wouldn't do that. Blood everywhere.
Noriko - I need to feel the pain and see the blood. It makes what I am contemplating real to me.

Panel 5
(Still flying, closer up. Noriko particularily looking away from Harada)
Noriko - I...still believe in you. But you know I can't stand the deaths...the suffering. You could just wipe away my doubts. And Rowena's knowledge of them...
Harada - No. There must be a control. When you stop believing in me...end it. As for the old woman -- who would listen to a fortuneteller?

Panel 6
March 8
2:34AM
(Harada sits/stands in the dark next to a prone ((sleeping?)) Noriko clutching the bear. He is seemingly in a nightrobe)

- What exactly is Noriko contemplating "It makes what I am contemplating real to me"?
- What does Harada mean by "there must be a control"? As in control subject. As in control over what he is doing.

It is very heavily implied that Harada has influenced many of the large conflicts of the last century and was instrumental in the successes (Cuban Missle Crisis, Apartheid, Tiananmen Square, the fall of the Berling wall) as well as its failures (The Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, the Mideast mess). The story almost seeks to make Harada push the agenda that Harada is less a villian and more an idealist with loose morals and a "ends justify the means" person which is quite consistent to Shooters writing of Harada.

It also pointed out that pretty much immediately after murdering his parents, Harada went to Noriko whose family was a neighbour of the Harada's and asked her to come away with him to be his wife. Toyo was 6 and she was 11. Seems that Shooter used a little bit of Harada's origin story in "Knights on Broadway" Not exactly but I can see the similarities. Noriko points out that she "doesn't think" that Harada made her go with him but it certainly mirrors many of the same conflicts Pete had with Kris and others but never answers them definitively.

I love the story, it is far too short and leaves me wanting more. The recoloring of the stories is beautiful and it was money well spent IMO.

I know I'm way late, but this is a great examination. The last page is really a head-scratcher, I'm wondering what everyone else's thoughts are on these unanswered questions. 7 pages was waaaayyy too short, I really hope Jim and co. can continue these stories. Job well done all involved!

edit: oh squee I didn't notice that 20+ page thread down below discussing this. Looks like i have some reading to do

[Chuck]

The comic store in San Jose (Legends, Oak Ridge Mall) finally got their copies about a week ago.

I just got my 3 copies.

It's funny that Harada lives in the Oakland hills.

The familar geographical references adds to the story for me.

Anyways the new stuff was a great read.

[Dr. Solar]

The comic store in San Jose (Legends, Oak Ridge Mall) finally got their copies about a week ago.

I just got my 3 copies.

It's funny that Harada lives in the Oakland hills.

The familar geographical references adds to the story for me.

Anyways the new stuff was a great read.

The "Corner of Gilman and Buchanan" where whats her name meets up with whats her name is really close to where I used to live back in college. The house I lived in was right off of Buchanan street.

It's kinda cool.

[Chuck]

The comic store in San Jose (Legends, Oak Ridge Mall) finally got their copies about a week ago.

I just got my 3 copies.

It's funny that Harada lives in the Oakland hills.

The familar geographical references adds to the story for me.

Anyways the new stuff was a great read.

The "Corner of Gilman and Buchanan" where whats her name meets up with whats her name is really close to where I used to live back in college. The house I lived in was right off of Buchanan street.

It's kinda cool.

Did you go to Cal?

[Ryan]

Of course, this begs the question: Who popped Madame Rowena?

If you're serious about asking...

At age 81 in this 1992 story, Madame Rowena considers herself the first (Harbinger).
She claims to have only had "occasional flashes" before she was "twenty-some".

I wish this story was followed up on. I'd love to know what was planned for the 2007-10 VEI-Vh1 relaunch that never was.

[ManofTheAtom]

Of course, this begs the question: Who popped Madame Rowena?

If you're serious about asking...

At age 81 in this 1992 story, Madame Rowena considers herself the first (Harbinger).
She claims to have only had "occasional flashes" before she was "twenty-some".

I wish this story was followed up on. I'd love to know what was planned for the 2007-10 VEI-Vh1 relaunch that never was.

That would have been awesome for sure.

One could argue that these stories represent an even different VALIANT Universe than the ones we've seen. One that more closely resembles the original than any other.

[Ryan]

Of course, this begs the question: Who popped Madame Rowena?

If you're serious about asking...

At age 81 in this 1992 story, Madame Rowena considers herself the first (Harbinger).
She claims to have only had "occasional flashes" before she was "twenty-some".

I wish this story was followed up on. I'd love to know what was planned for the 2007-10 VEI-Vh1 relaunch that never was.

That would have been awesome for sure.

One could argue that these stories represent an even different VALIANT Universe than the ones we've seen. One that more closely resembles the original than any other.

Definitely. I would probably group it with some of the VH#s that were shown in Unity 2000. Variations sprouting off of VH1.

What we don't know is how deep it goes, as far as how much it was developed behind the scenes. It could be a lot, since they could have been working on it for a few years. Or it could be that there isn't much more than the short stories that were printed in the HC's. Tantalizing teases and nothing more.

Shooter is known to have been developing a Ninjak series for at least six months with VEI. Its unclear if that was part of this same continuity and relaunch (VEI-VH1), but it seems likely.

[ManofTheAtom]

Of course, this begs the question: Who popped Madame Rowena?

If you're serious about asking...

At age 81 in this 1992 story, Madame Rowena considers herself the first (Harbinger).
She claims to have only had "occasional flashes" before she was "twenty-some".

I wish this story was followed up on. I'd love to know what was planned for the 2007-10 VEI-Vh1 relaunch that never was.

That would have been awesome for sure.

One could argue that these stories represent an even different VALIANT Universe than the ones we've seen. One that more closely resembles the original than any other.

Definitely. I would probably group it with some of the VH#s that were shown in Unity 2000. Variations sprouting off of VH1.

What we don't know is how deep it goes, as far as how much it was developed behind the scenes. It could be a lot, since they could have been working on it for a few years. Or it could be that there isn't much more than the short stories that were printed in the HC's. Tantalizing teases and nothing more.

Shooter is known to have been developing a Ninjak series for at least six months with VEI. Its unclear if that was part of this same continuity and relaunch (VEI-VH1), but it seems likely.

[Ryan]

Spill it man. The NDAs have to be expired by now...

[ManofTheAtom]

Spill it man. The NDAs have to be expired by now...

I don't know if they have an expiration date, lol.

If there's language in there about them transferring to VEI's successors, they'd still be valid, no? I'd have to check, heh.

[Ryan]

I don't know if they have an expiration date, lol.

If there's language in there about them transferring to VEI's successors, they'd still be valid, no? I'd have to check, heh.

Fair enough, maybe we could get all the details down and put it into an exclusive fanzine instead of on a public forum

I have what Bob's plans were for Shadowman, but I don't think he was very involved with the broader relaunch.

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't know if they have an expiration date, lol.

If there's language in there about them transferring to VEI's successors, they'd still be valid, no? I'd have to check, heh.

Fair enough, maybe we could get all the details down and put it into an exclusive fanzine instead of on a public forum

I have what Bob's plans were for Shadowman, but I don't think he was very involved with the broader relaunch.

[Ryan]

I don't know if they have an expiration date, lol.

If there's language in there about them transferring to VEI's successors, they'd still be valid, no? I'd have to check, heh.

Fair enough, maybe we could get all the details down and put it into an exclusive fanzine instead of on a public forum

I have what Bob's plans were for Shadowman, but I don't think he was very involved with the broader relaunch.

This sounds like it might need to be a tell-all memoir.

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't know if they have an expiration date, lol.

If there's language in there about them transferring to VEI's successors, they'd still be valid, no? I'd have to check, heh.

Fair enough, maybe we could get all the details down and put it into an exclusive fanzine instead of on a public forum

I have what Bob's plans were for Shadowman, but I don't think he was very involved with the broader relaunch.

This sounds like it might need to be a tell-all memoir.

Probably not that much, but certainly enough for a post. Maybe someday, on my dead bed or if someone ever gives me the okay, lol.

[Ryan]

Probably not that much, but certainly enough for a post. Maybe someday, on my dead bed or if someone ever gives me the okay, lol.

Let's hope for the latter, and soon

That was kind of my idea when I started the fanzine, try to gather and preserve all the behind the scenes stories and deep Valiant lore of projects that happened and didn't happened while the old guard is still alive to tell the stories. We've already lost some like Don Perlin and James Perham that probably had some stories to tell.

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to pursue it as much as I would've liked.

[ManofTheAtom]

Probably not that much, but certainly enough for a post. Maybe someday, on my dead bed or if someone ever gives me the okay, lol.

Let's hope for the latter, and soon

That was kind of my idea when I started the fanzine, try to gather and preserve all the behind the scenes stories and deep Valiant lore of projects that happened and didn't happened while the old guard is still alive to tell the stories. We've already lost some like Don Perlin and James Perham that probably had some stories to tell.

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to pursue it as much as I would've liked.

You should ask Shooter. If he can talk about it then whatever NDA he signed likely expired.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61550661145351

[Ryan]

You should ask Shooter. If he can talk about it then whatever NDA he signed likely expired.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61550661145351

I'm working on starting a youtube channel, it seems like an easier avenue to get that information and do in-depth interviews than the old-school fanzine approach.

[ManofTheAtom]

You should ask Shooter. If he can talk about it then whatever NDA he signed likely expired.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61550661145351

I'm working on starting a youtube channel, it seems like an easier avenue to get that information and do in-depth interviews than the old-school fanzine approach.

For sure. Go for it. Better sooner than later since they're not getting any younger too.

[Ryan]

You should ask Shooter. If he can talk about it then whatever NDA he signed likely expired.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61550661145351

I'm working on starting a youtube channel, it seems like an easier avenue to get that information and do in-depth interviews than the old-school fanzine approach.

For sure. Go for it. Better sooner than later since they're not getting any younger too.

Exactly. I still like the idea of documenting things in print with artwork and all that, so I hope I can add in that aspect down the road too. But youtube is such an easier platform these days for these kind of interviews.

[ManofTheAtom]

You should ask Shooter. If he can talk about it then whatever NDA he signed likely expired.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61550661145351

I'm working on starting a youtube channel, it seems like an easier avenue to get that information and do in-depth interviews than the old-school fanzine approach.

For sure. Go for it. Better sooner than later since they're not getting any younger too.

Exactly. I still like the idea of documenting things in print with artwork and all that, so I hope I can add in that aspect down the road too. But youtube is such an easier platform these days for these kind of interviews.

You can transcribe it after the fact and use screenshots and such to go with the text.

[Ryan]

You should ask Shooter. If he can talk about it then whatever NDA he signed likely expired.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61550661145351

I'm working on starting a youtube channel, it seems like an easier avenue to get that information and do in-depth interviews than the old-school fanzine approach.

For sure. Go for it. Better sooner than later since they're not getting any younger too.

Exactly. I still like the idea of documenting things in print with artwork and all that, so I hope I can add in that aspect down the road too. But youtube is such an easier platform these days for these kind of interviews.

You can transcribe it after the fact and use screenshots and such to go with the text.

Good idea