Valiant Beyond to be an Absolute Ultimate Valiant Universe Rebirth

[ManofTheAtom]

Doesn't either Phil or Doctor Solar in Second Death point out that the science in the original Gold Key Solar comics was "bad"?

That's what happened with VH-2, the science went bad.

The goal should be to restore it to how it should be.

Perception does not determine reality. Just because the characters perceive the multiverse in a certain way it does not mean that there aren't more scientifically-accurate truths about it to uncover.

What kind of reactor needs to pump anti-protons? Was Edgewood fusing anti-matter?

Give it a few more years and the science of VH1 will be bad too. What keeps it from being worse now is that it was not too technical. The Dark Horse Doctor Solar might become bad science sooner than VH1 because the Dark Horse was more technical.

I just KNEW you were going to ask that about Edegwater (not Edgewood).

It's definitely a topic that has been debated here MANY times.

This post is from 2007.

From Solar #3

Dialogue by Doctor Solar.

"Here he (Phil) is a few years later, the principal theologist behind the fusion reactor being built at the Edgewater nuclear facility"

The emphasis is mine.

From Solar #4

Caption Box (dialogue by the Phil from Alpha & Omega)

"So he (Solar) doesn't understand that this reactor's anti-proton "pilot light" mixes just enough anti-matter into the plasma to rip the stuffing out of positive-polarity beings, like us."

So Phil was a theologist and the reactor was an anti-matter fusion reactor with a plasma core.

It should say THEORIST, not theologist. That was a mistake on my part.

And here is the page in question.

RCO028_w_1468858259.jpg

[ManofTheAtom]

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

That's a good way to visualize how new universes are created using the same starting point and, therefore, the same finite energy source (the big bang).

Do the parallel universes have have finite sources of matter?

They should.

You seem to be missing that the point is that what I'm putting forth is a new way of seeing how multiverses can work within the hard science rules of VH-1, not pointing out something someone else has already proposed before.

[Chiclo]

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

That's a good way to visualize how new universes are created using the same starting point and, therefore, the same finite energy source (the big bang).

Do the parallel universes have have finite sources of matter?

They should.

You seem to be missing that the point is that what I'm putting forth is a new way of seeing how multiverses can work within the hard science rules of VH-1, not pointing out something someone else has already proposed before.

How much energy would the prime universe have had to have been ripped so many times as depicted in parallels? That energy supply would barely be keeping the lights on.

You are appealing to hard science fiction rules here, not any real, peer-reviewed science. Anything along these lines will seem as outdated and silly in 70 years as Phantom Planet sounds to us.

[Ryan]

And the point I'm getting at is that the only reason that is is because of VH-2, which fundamentally ignored every aspect of what made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

VALIANT should have never been about multiple iterations of the same characters.

That road leads to Magnus Bull(*SQUEE*)...

You're talking about an ideal world that doesn't exist, I'm talking about reality.

I also wish the rules from pre-Unity Valiant were stuck to, but that's not what happened. What about the countless times in post-Unity Valiant, VEI, DMG, and Alien comics that have broken your "hard science" rules?

You love Resurgence and yet it breaks every 'hard science' rule in the book, it's more Marvel/DC than even Marvel/DC would try to pull off

In an ideal world, Batman would still be in the same continuity from Detective #27 from 1939 and we'd be on Bruce's great(x5) grandson and every Batman appearance would fit nicely into this single continuity (universe). But that's just not the reality of how commercial fiction works, and thus we have multiverses.

VH 1 should be given preference to the mistakes of VH 2.

Why do DMG and Alien get a pass in your whole 'hard science' argument? You have super strict rules in very specific cases, but then love everything by Alien and DMG even though they don't follow any of your own 'rules'. It just feels like trolling and not genuine discussion at this point.

[ManofTheAtom]

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

That's a good way to visualize how new universes are created using the same starting point and, therefore, the same finite energy source (the big bang).

Do the parallel universes have have finite sources of matter?

They should.

You seem to be missing that the point is that what I'm putting forth is a new way of seeing how multiverses can work within the hard science rules of VH-1, not pointing out something someone else has already proposed before.

How much energy would the prime universe have had to have been ripped so many times as depicted in parallels? That energy supply would barely be keeping the lights on.

You are appealing to hard science fiction rules here, not any real, peer-reviewed science. Anything along these lines will seem as outdated and silly in 70 years as Phantom Planet sounds to us.

What I'm proposing begins with an adherence to the first law of thermodynamics, which states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (only changed).

By that rule, all the energy that exists in the universe was released during the big bang, which makes it a finite source.

From where else but said universe would the energy for other universes in a multiverse come from since energy cannot be created?

As to the question of how much energy there was to begin with, I cannot say. Has that ever been quantified? Can it be?

The universe is said to still be expanding outward, which can be assumed to mean includes the creation of new stars and planets.

The proposal here is that the same source of energy that allows for that to be is also the same source that is used to create other universes.

[ManofTheAtom]

And the point I'm getting at is that the only reason that is is because of VH-2, which fundamentally ignored every aspect of what made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

VALIANT should have never been about multiple iterations of the same characters.

That road leads to Magnus Bull(*SQUEE*)...

You're talking about an ideal world that doesn't exist, I'm talking about reality.

I also wish the rules from pre-Unity Valiant were stuck to, but that's not what happened. What about the countless times in post-Unity Valiant, VEI, DMG, and Alien comics that have broken your "hard science" rules?

You love Resurgence and yet it breaks every 'hard science' rule in the book, it's more Marvel/DC than even Marvel/DC would try to pull off

In an ideal world, Batman would still be in the same continuity from Detective #27 from 1939 and we'd be on Bruce's great(x5) grandson and every Batman appearance would fit nicely into this single continuity (universe). But that's just not the reality of how commercial fiction works, and thus we have multiverses.

VH 1 should be given preference to the mistakes of VH 2.

Why do DMG and Alien get a pass in your whole 'hard science' argument? You have super strict rules in very specific cases, but then love everything by Alien and DMG even though they don't follow any of your own 'rules'. It just feels like trolling and not genuine discussion at this point.

For one thing, I haven't seen anything from what DMG or Alien have done that deviates from what Dinesh was doing. That said, he did play fast and lose many times with the science. I don't give them a pass on that, I'm just not focusing on their failure to do it because there is no need since they are not the culprits behind VALIANT deviating from their hard science rule in the first place, that was VH 2.

[ManofTheAtom]

How much energy would the prime universe have had to have been ripped so many times as depicted in parallels? That energy supply would barely be keeping the lights on.

When it comes to VALIANT, "that energy supply would barely be keeping the lights on", THAT is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

A multiverse story in which it is discovered that each time a new reality is created it depletes the finite energy source in the prime universe where the big bang occurred, so now the heroes of all the universes have to band together to force them all to coalesce back into one before they are all destroyed.

"Crisis on Infinite Earths"-esque but with a hard science explanation.

When energy from the prime universe is used to create a new universe, that forces the original universe to compress, leading into the hypothetical "big crunch" since instead of being used to expand the universe that energy is instead being diverted to create another universe in the multiverse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch

[Ryan]

For one thing, I haven't seen anything from what DMG or Alien have done that deviates from what Dinesh was doing. That said, he did play fast and lose many times with the science. I don't give them a pass on that, I'm just not focusing on their failure to do it because there is no need since they are not the culprits behind VALIANT deviating from their hard science rule in the first place, that was VH 2.

Your logic is twistier than a pretzel, but ok. Yeah it's all Marvel-lite, VH2, VEI, DMG, Alien. But I don't even think Dinesh would do something as off the wall as making it so no one in the world dies any more. It kills any credibility that this is actually a serious sci-fi universe.

But hey, like whatever you like. It's just time to retire the whole Valiant isn't a multiverse bit when it's now been referred to a multiverse in canon (not just U2k) and the upcoming multiverse event Valiant Beyond Absolute Ultimate Valiant Universe Rebirth is on its way

[ManofTheAtom]

For one thing, I haven't seen anything from what DMG or Alien have done that deviates from what Dinesh was doing. That said, he did play fast and lose many times with the science. I don't give them a pass on that, I'm just not focusing on their failure to do it because there is no need since they are not the culprits behind VALIANT deviating from their hard science rule in the first place, that was VH 2.

Your logic is twistier than a pretzel, but ok. Yeah it's all Marvel-lite, VH2, VEI, DMG, Alien. But I don't even think Dinesh would do something as off the wall as making it so no one in the world dies any more. It kills any credibility that this is actually a serious sci-fi universe.

But hey, like whatever you like. It's just time to retire the whole Valiant isn't a multiverse bit when it's now been referred to a multiverse in canon (not just U2k) and the upcoming multiverse event Valiant Beyond Absolute Ultimate Valiant Universe Rebirth is on its way

For one thing, the bit about no one dying anymore is clearly intended to be conclude with death being restored. It's Silk using a Boon-like device, which the heroes need to turn off.

[Ryan]

For one thing, I haven't seen anything from what DMG or Alien have done that deviates from what Dinesh was doing. That said, he did play fast and lose many times with the science. I don't give them a pass on that, I'm just not focusing on their failure to do it because there is no need since they are not the culprits behind VALIANT deviating from their hard science rule in the first place, that was VH 2.

Your logic is twistier than a pretzel, but ok. Yeah it's all Marvel-lite, VH2, VEI, DMG, Alien. But I don't even think Dinesh would do something as off the wall as making it so no one in the world dies any more. It kills any credibility that this is actually a serious sci-fi universe.

But hey, like whatever you like. It's just time to retire the whole Valiant isn't a multiverse bit when it's now been referred to a multiverse in canon (not just U2k) and the upcoming multiverse event Valiant Beyond Absolute Ultimate Valiant Universe Rebirth is on its way

For one thing, the bit about no one dying anymore is clearly intended to be conclude with death being restored. It's Silk using a Boon-like device, which the heroes need to turn off.

Sounds like Marvel-lite to me. But cool, I like a lot of old Marvel comics, so I'll reserve judgement until I actually read it.

All I'm saying is that your theory does sound cool, and I've always wished Valiant had stuck with pre-Unity rules, or would someday go back to stricter rules and be a more credible sci-fi universe like pre-Unity. But the fact of the matter is that there are now multiple iterations of the Valiant characters that exist in separate fictional universes, a multiverse. So we'll see where this all goes.

I'm on record multiple times of wishing they would just let the VH1 characters continue on their own in a separate corner. Like when Batman had Batman Adventures or TMNT had the Archie comics and Mirage comics running at the same time, or GI Joe ARAH, etc. etc. there are many many examples of properties that have 2 different continuities peacefully co-existing without any need to merge or interact.

[Chiclo]

You cite the big crunch in the same thread where you were critical of outdated science in Gold Key comics.

[ManofTheAtom]

For one thing, I haven't seen anything from what DMG or Alien have done that deviates from what Dinesh was doing. That said, he did play fast and lose many times with the science. I don't give them a pass on that, I'm just not focusing on their failure to do it because there is no need since they are not the culprits behind VALIANT deviating from their hard science rule in the first place, that was VH 2.

Your logic is twistier than a pretzel, but ok. Yeah it's all Marvel-lite, VH2, VEI, DMG, Alien. But I don't even think Dinesh would do something as off the wall as making it so no one in the world dies any more. It kills any credibility that this is actually a serious sci-fi universe.

But hey, like whatever you like. It's just time to retire the whole Valiant isn't a multiverse bit when it's now been referred to a multiverse in canon (not just U2k) and the upcoming multiverse event Valiant Beyond Absolute Ultimate Valiant Universe Rebirth is on its way

For one thing, the bit about no one dying anymore is clearly intended to be conclude with death being restored. It's Silk using a Boon-like device, which the heroes need to turn off.

Sounds like Marvel-lite to me. But cool, I like a lot of old Marvel comics, so I'll reserve judgement until I actually read it.

All I'm saying is that your theory does sound cool, and I've always wished Valiant had stuck with pre-Unity rules, or would someday go back to stricter rules and be a more credible sci-fi universe like pre-Unity. But the fact of the matter is that there are now multiple iterations of the Valiant characters that exist in separate fictional universes, a multiverse. So we'll see where this all goes.

I'm on record multiple times of wishing they would just let the VH1 characters continue on their own in a separate corner. Like when Batman had Batman Adventures or TMNT had the Archie comics and Mirage comics running at the same time, or GI Joe ARAH, etc. etc. there are many many examples of properties that have 2 different continuities peacefully co-existing without any need to merge or interact.

We'll see what happens with their planned project. I'm just saying that if they are truly bringing back VH 1 they have to bring back the rules that made it VALIANT, it's not enough to just bring back the drawings of the characters if the writing is not going to match their universe.

[ManofTheAtom]

You cite the big crunch in the same thread where you were critical of outdated science in Gold Key comics.

In the proposed scenario in which alternate universes are created by syphoning energy from the finite source that makes up the universe, the big crunch would be real.

In real life the universe is continually expanding, but in a fictional scenario in which energy is drained whenever a new universe is created, it would instead contract.

Now, what does the fact that in real life the universe is expanding tell us about the likelihood of alternate realities given that energy cannot be created to sustain them?

[Ryan]

We'll see what happens with their planned project. I'm just saying that if they are truly bringing back VH 1 they have to bring back the rules that made it VALIANT, it's not enough to just bring back the drawings of the characters if the writing is not going to match their universe.

100%. That was the consensus of what the majority of fans on here wanted 2002-2010. The old Valiant back in terms of writing. The deep world building and the credible universe that Valiant was from beginning until sometime a bit after Unity.

Whether the new Valiant was a reboot, relaunch, or some combination of the 2, what people most wanted was that unique kind of storytelling from early Valiant.

Which is why I would never go out of my way to praise and promote current books like Resurgence that are getting farther and farther away from what made early Valiant great. If they think the fans are happy with Marvel-lite, then they'll keep giving us Marvel-lite.

[ManofTheAtom]

We'll see what happens with their planned project. I'm just saying that if they are truly bringing back VH 1 they have to bring back the rules that made it VALIANT, it's not enough to just bring back the drawings of the characters if the writing is not going to match their universe.

100%. That was the consensus of what the majority of fans on here wanted 2002-2010. The old Valiant back in terms of writing. The deep world building and the credible universe that Valiant was from beginning until sometime a bit after Unity.

Whether the new Valiant was a reboot, relaunch, or some combination of the 2, what people most wanted was that unique kind of storytelling from early Valiant.

Which is why I would never go out of my way to praise and promote current books like Resurgence that are getting farther and farther away from what made early Valiant great. If they think the fans are happy with Marvel-lite, then they'll keep giving us Marvel-lite.

What Resurgence is doing is not necessarily Marvel-lite. They are using existing VEI world building to tell a story in which Silk uses a similar device to the one Ivar used to make Aram immortal to stop people from dying. That's all.

The Boon follows Clarke's third law, which was explicitly stated in either the first or second issue of VEI's Shadowman.

[Ryan]

What Resurgence is doing is not necessarily Marvel-lite. They are using existing VEI world building to tell a story in which Silk uses a similar device to the one Ivar used to make Aram immortal to stop people from dying. That's all.

The Boon follows Clarke's third law, which was explicitly stated in either the first or second issue of VEI's Shadowman.

Sure, that's 'hard science' but multiverses aren't. VEI is definitely Marvel-lite. More accurately MCU-lite.

[ManofTheAtom]

What Resurgence is doing is not necessarily Marvel-lite. They are using existing VEI world building to tell a story in which Silk uses a similar device to the one Ivar used to make Aram immortal to stop people from dying. That's all.

The Boon follows Clarke's third law, which was explicitly stated in either the first or second issue of VEI's Shadowman.

Sure, that's 'hard science' but multiverses aren't. VEI is definitely Marvel-lite. More accurately MCU-lite.

Well, what the Boon did was extract all the energy from the people of Ur and transfer it into Aram. That's science.

[Ryan]

Well, what the Boon did was extract all the energy from the people of Ur and transfer it into Aram. That's science.

We'll see what happens with their planned project. I'm just saying that if they are truly bringing back VH 1 they have to bring back the rules that made it VALIANT, it's not enough to just bring back the drawings of the characters if the writing is not going to match their universe.

So are you saying that only VH1 characters need to be written like VH1, and that VEI and Alien can be written be written like Marvel and that's great? Or that VEI and Alien are written like VH1?

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, what the Boon did was extract all the energy from the people of Ur and transfer it into Aram. That's science.

We'll see what happens with their planned project. I'm just saying that if they are truly bringing back VH 1 they have to bring back the rules that made it VALIANT, it's not enough to just bring back the drawings of the characters if the writing is not going to match their universe.

So are you saying that only VH1 characters need to be written like VH1, and that VEI and Alien can be written be written like Marvel and that's great? Or that VEI and Alien are written like VH1?

I'm saying that "VH1 characters need to be written like VH1" and "that VEI and Alien can be written" like VEI (remember, there is no narrative distinction between VEI, DMG, and Alien. It's the same world)".

If all three worlds -- VH 1 and 2 and VEI -- merged into one, then VH 1 should be given preference.

[Ryan]

Well, what the Boon did was extract all the energy from the people of Ur and transfer it into Aram. That's science.

We'll see what happens with their planned project. I'm just saying that if they are truly bringing back VH 1 they have to bring back the rules that made it VALIANT, it's not enough to just bring back the drawings of the characters if the writing is not going to match their universe.

So are you saying that only VH1 characters need to be written like VH1, and that VEI and Alien can be written be written like Marvel and that's great? Or that VEI and Alien are written like VH1?

I'm saying that "VH1 characters need to be written like VH1" and "that VEI and Alien can be written" like VEI (remember, there is no narrative distinction between VEI, DMG, and Alien. It's the same world)".

If all three worlds -- VH 1 and 2 and VEI -- merged into one, then VH 1 should be given preference.

I should know better than to try unravel one of your logic pretzels at night. But let me see if I got this.

On one hand, a multiverse is impossible in Valiant because of an obscure quote from Solar 4. So all Valiant characters are just new manifestations of the same 'energy'.

On the other hand the different Valiant 'universes' can't be judged by the same standards because they're different?

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, what the Boon did was extract all the energy from the people of Ur and transfer it into Aram. That's science.

We'll see what happens with their planned project. I'm just saying that if they are truly bringing back VH 1 they have to bring back the rules that made it VALIANT, it's not enough to just bring back the drawings of the characters if the writing is not going to match their universe.

So are you saying that only VH1 characters need to be written like VH1, and that VEI and Alien can be written be written like Marvel and that's great? Or that VEI and Alien are written like VH1?

I'm saying that "VH1 characters need to be written like VH1" and "that VEI and Alien can be written" like VEI (remember, there is no narrative distinction between VEI, DMG, and Alien. It's the same world)".

If all three worlds -- VH 1 and 2 and VEI -- merged into one, then VH 1 should be given preference.

I should know better than to try unravel one of your logic pretzels at night. But let me see if I got this.

On one hand, a multiverse is impossible in Valiant because of an obscure quote from Solar 4. So all Valiant characters are just new manifestations of the same 'energy'.

On the other hand the different Valiant 'universes' can't be judged by the same standards because they're different?

Well, a multiverse as it tends to be presented in fiction would be impossible at VALIANT, but one that works as I've been suggesting could.

And, yes, each different universe would follow its own set of different rules.

Like in Sliders, where on one world green means go and red means stop while on another green means stop and red means go.

[Ryan]

Well, a multiverse as it tends to be presented in fiction would be impossible at VALIANT, but one that works as I've been suggesting could.

And, yes, each different universe would follow its own set of different rules.

Like in Sliders, where on one world green means go and red means stop while on another green means stop and red means go.

Not impossible. It's been done in Unity 2000 and it's being done again now according to this article.

Then you say they are different universes. A multiverse.

A good Valiant comic should have good writing, attention to detail, and a credible science fiction setting that limits the amount of fantasy elements and provides a realistic enough explanation for the fantasy elements they introduce.

It doesn't make a difference which 'universe' it is. If it's not following the classic Valiant principles then its just trying to emulate Marvel, and to me that's just not what I'm looking for out of Valiant. I guess that's why I could never get into VEI, DMG, and Alien.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, a multiverse as it tends to be presented in fiction would be impossible at VALIANT, but one that works as I've been suggesting could.

And, yes, each different universe would follow its own set of different rules.

Like in Sliders, where on one world green means go and red means stop while on another green means stop and red means go.

Not impossible. It's been done in Unity 2000 and it's being done again now according to this article.

Then you say they are different universes. A multiverse.

A good Valiant comic should have good writing, attention to detail, and a credible science fiction setting that limits the amount of fantasy elements and provides a realistic enough explanation for the fantasy elements they introduce.

It doesn't make a difference which 'universe' it is. If it's not following the classic Valiant principles then its just trying to emulate Marvel, and to me that's just not what I'm looking for out of Valiant. I guess that's why I could never get into VEI, DMG, and Alien.

Just because they did it doesn't mean they did it right.

The multiverse the way it was done at VH 2 is the way it would have been done at DC and Marvel, not the way it would have been done at VALIANT.

[Dallow Spicer1]

I’m concerned about Alien’s plans to ‘crash’ together the various Valiant universes (or is it univi?!). Whilst it’s an intriguing concept, it’s majorly ambitious. Dinesh with VDitti, Dysart etc MIGHT be able to pull this off, but Alien have struggled to deliver quality books and the current big event ‘Resurgence’ is a mess.

In the recent Bloodshot Black, White and Red #2 Kevin VanHook has a short story where Ray Garrison and Michael Lazarus meet up via a timey wimey thing. The story was too short to do the concept justice but it was interesting nevertheless.

[Ryan]

I’m concerned about Alien’s plans to ‘crash’ together the various Valiant universes (or is it univi?!). Whilst it’s an intriguing concept, it’s majorly ambitious. Dinesh with VDitti, Dysart etc MIGHT be able to pull this off, but Alien have struggled to deliver quality books and the current big event ‘Resurgence’ is a mess.

In the recent Bloodshot Black, White and Red #2 Kevin VanHook has a short story where Ray Garrison and Michael Lazarus meet up via a timey wimey thing. The story was too short to do the concept justice but it was interesting nevertheless.

We went into depth on the Bloodshot story in this thread http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54691

You're right about the 'crash', though. As much as I want to see the old 90s versions I don't want them to be trotted out just to get hype for another poorly conceived 'event'. Time Will Tell I guess.