Poll to settle the Alien v DMG debate!

[leonmallett]

Supposedly, Acclaim's biggest seller was the comic with the two guys holding each other's privates in the restroom while shouting that they were not a couple, which is how we ended up with a goat on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

I recall Nicieza lamenting to Wizard that the Turok video game sold millions but the comic only sold a few thousand copies.

MotA’s Law. Thread closed.

Not applicable in the context of the conversation.

False.

http://www.valiantfans.com/motaslaw.htm

MotA’s law recognises the citation of the Goat and his acquaintance with the Legion as the end of a discussion. I’d say this discussion reached its end long ago. Nothing new has been said, just lots of butting heads.

In the context of the conversation it is offered as supporting of Step 2 of Dallow Spicer's list, however.

Chiclo's reading seems clear and correct:

It is anticipated that MOTA's Law may be extended to cover situations where any discussion has reached a point of ludicrous statements and repetitive debate positions, regardless of whether user ManofTheAtom is a part of that discussion.

It appears conditions have been met for invocation; the description of MoTA's Law does not require reference to the Legion of Super-Heroes, only to the Goat.

Then on to the most important point: do the arguments in Chiclo's head involve ice cream? At all?

[ManofTheAtom]

Supposedly, Acclaim's biggest seller was the comic with the two guys holding each other's privates in the restroom while shouting that they were not a couple, which is how we ended up with a goat on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

I recall Nicieza lamenting to Wizard that the Turok video game sold millions but the comic only sold a few thousand copies.

MotA’s Law. Thread closed.

Not applicable in the context of the conversation.

False.

http://www.valiantfans.com/motaslaw.htm

MotA’s law recognises the citation of the Goat and his acquaintance with the Legion as the end of a discussion. I’d say this discussion reached its end long ago. Nothing new has been said, just lots of butting heads.

In the context of the conversation it is offered as supporting of Step 2 of Dallow Spicer's list, however.

Chiclo's reading seems clear and correct:

It is anticipated that MOTA's Law may be extended to cover situations where any discussion has reached a point of ludicrous statements and repetitive debate positions, regardless of whether user ManofTheAtom is a part of that discussion.

It appears conditions have been met for invocation; the description of MoTA's Law does not require reference to the Legion of Super-Heroes, only to the Goat.

Then on to the most important point: do the arguments in Chiclo's head involve ice cream? At all?

Context matters, though, as it is brought up as an example germane to Step 2.

[slack]

The fact that MOTA's law exists says so much.

I've learned to just assume that he's either wrong, disturbed, or trolling, and therefore ignore his contributions.

Occasionally, I see that Chiclo is chiming in, and that will get me to look. I need to stop letting my respect for Chiclo draw my attention to MOTA conversations, it's always the same.

[Chiclo]

Also -

By rule, ManofTheAtom has LOST any argument which requires
the evocation of MOTA's law (even if he believes he was winning).

(Citation: MotA’s Law page)

Them’s the board rules. Ryan wins.

[ManofTheAtom]

Also -

By rule, ManofTheAtom has LOST any argument which requires
the evocation of MOTA's law (even if he believes he was winning).

(Citation: MotA’s Law page)

Them’s the board rules. Ryan wins.

There was no argument. And, in context (for the fifth time?), it was brought up as an example of Step 2.

Your suggestion is that I lost an argument about Step 2, is that it? I don't get it. You lost me.

The conversation had to do what publishers can do to attract "mythical new readers" using 1 title, such as making it woke, manga, non binary whatever.

Quantum & Woody, VH-2's biggest seller, somewhat fit the criteria. It was its success that led to the goat getting a one-shot.

So, what argument did I lose exactly?

[Chiclo]

I am sorry, I don’t feel like fighting an argument that has concluded.

[ManofTheAtom]

I am sorry, I don’t feel like fighting an argument that has concluded.

What was the argument? I missed it. Can you show it to me?

STEP 1 - bring back lapsed readers - If I was then I’d look at the VEI books and try to emulate them as closely as possible. ie quality over quantity, no manga art

STEP 2 - if you want to attract the mythical new readers then USE 1 title! Make it woke, manga, non binary whatever, go for your life with it but keep it separate to the good stuff.

There is a lot of truth to step 2. Do something no matter what it is if it is guaranteed to attract an audience. Worst case, it becomes a way to earn capital to finance production of the good stuff that may not be as financially successful.

Supposedly, Acclaim's biggest seller was the comic with the two guys holding each other's privates in the restroom while shouting that they were not a couple, which is how we ended up with a goat on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

I recall Nicieza lamenting to Wizard that the Turok video game sold millions but the comic only sold a few thousand copies.

[Cyberstrike]

If anyone think that Valiant is going to be on the same level as Marvel or DC, they are delusional. Sorry but that ship sailed and sank in 2000, even if they were bought by Paramount, Sony, Universal, Amazon, Netflix, or Apple the sheer amount of marketing to get them anywhere near Marvel or DC would cost more than buying the company would.

The sad truth is outside of its diehard fans Valiant doesn't have the pop culture relevancy it had back at its height. At best it's considered a joke by many industry veterans and cautionary tale of growing too big and too fast by non-Valiant fans and historians.

[ManofTheAtom]

If anyone think that Valiant is going to be on the same level as Marvel or DC, they are delusional. Sorry but that ship sailed and sank in 2000, even if they were bought by Paramount, Sony, Universal, Amazon, Netflix, or Apple the sheer amount of marketing to get them anywhere near Marvel or DC would cost more than buying the company would.

The sad truth is outside of its diehard fans Valiant doesn't have the pop culture relevancy it had back at its height. At best it's considered a joke by many industry veterans and cautionary tale of growing too big and too fast by non-Valiant fans and historians.

I doubt it would reach that level, but it doesn't need to. It needs to reach its own level of success.

[Ryan]

STEP 2 - if you want to attract the mythical new readers then USE 1 title! Make it woke, manga, non binary whatever, go for your life with it but keep it separate to the good stuff.

There is a lot of truth to step 2. Do something no matter what it is if it is guaranteed to attract an audience. Worst case, it becomes a way to earn capital to finance production of the good stuff that may not be as financially successful.

Isn't that what they've been doing for many years now? Trying to pander to new 'modern', younger audiences? I would say do the opposite of that.

How about doing ONE mature, intelligent comic book that an educated adult can read without cringing all the way through?

If anyone think that Valiant is going to be on the same level as Marvel or DC, they are delusional. Sorry but that ship sailed and sank in 2000*

*1992-3. Whatever day it was that Bo took over.

[ManofTheAtom]

STEP 2 - if you want to attract the mythical new readers then USE 1 title! Make it woke, manga, non binary whatever, go for your life with it but keep it separate to the good stuff.

There is a lot of truth to step 2. Do something no matter what it is if it is guaranteed to attract an audience. Worst case, it becomes a way to earn capital to finance production of the good stuff that may not be as financially successful.

Isn't that what they've been doing for many years now? Trying to pander to new 'modern', younger audiences? I would say do the opposite of that.

How about doing ONE mature, intelligent comic book that an educated adult can read without cringing all the way through?

It would be great if they could do both commercial comics and comics that are true to the identity of the VALIANT Universe.

[The Harbinger]

If anyone think that Valiant is going to be on the same level as Marvel or DC, they are delusional. Sorry but that ship sailed and sank in 2000, even if they were bought by Paramount, Sony, Universal, Amazon, Netflix, or Apple the sheer amount of marketing to get them anywhere near Marvel or DC would cost more than buying the company would.

The sad truth is outside of its diehard fans Valiant doesn't have the pop culture relevancy it had back at its height. At best it's considered a joke by many industry veterans and cautionary tale of growing too big and too fast by non-Valiant fans and historians.

Valiant's rep was varied depending on who you asked even pre-2012 if you venture outside of the board. I remember seeing the hypothetical on the Image comics board where someone asked the question "what if Image was founded by the greatest writers instead of the greatest artists"? And someone answered that then Image would be called Valiant and crash and burn within 5 years.

I was chucking to myself at the Brigade/Savage Dragon guys looking down on us, but they weren't 100% wrong

[Ryan]

If anyone think that Valiant is going to be on the same level as Marvel or DC, they are delusional. Sorry but that ship sailed and sank in 2000, even if they were bought by Paramount, Sony, Universal, Amazon, Netflix, or Apple the sheer amount of marketing to get them anywhere near Marvel or DC would cost more than buying the company would.

The sad truth is outside of its diehard fans Valiant doesn't have the pop culture relevancy it had back at its height. At best it's considered a joke by many industry veterans and cautionary tale of growing too big and too fast by non-Valiant fans and historians.

Valiant's rep was varied depending on who you asked even pre-2012 if you venture outside of the board. I remember seeing the hypothetical on the Image comics board where someone asked the question "what if Image was founded by the greatest writers instead of the greatest artists"? And someone answered that then Image would be called Valiant and crash and burn within 5 years.

I was chucking to myself at the Brigade/Savage Dragon guys looking down on us, but they weren't 100% wrong

That's only true if you just gloss over Valiant history and don't actually look at the details of what happened.

When Bo Blayton took over (Post-Unity) the 'greatest writers' were replaced with mostly interns and greenhorns who had never written professionally before.

Bo himself was never considered a 'top writer' at Marvel, he was a top inker who co-plotted a lot of books he worked on but scripted very rarely.

We don't really know what would happen "if Image was founded by the greatest writers instead of the greatest artists" because 1 and half years in there's no way you can Valiant had a stable of top writers.

[Ryan]

STEP 2 - if you want to attract the mythical new readers then USE 1 title! Make it woke, manga, non binary whatever, go for your life with it but keep it separate to the good stuff.

There is a lot of truth to step 2. Do something no matter what it is if it is guaranteed to attract an audience. Worst case, it becomes a way to earn capital to finance production of the good stuff that may not be as financially successful.

Isn't that what they've been doing for many years now? Trying to pander to new 'modern', younger audiences? I would say do the opposite of that.

How about doing ONE mature, intelligent comic book that an educated adult can read without cringing all the way through?

It would be great if they could do both commercial comics and comics that are true to the identity of the VALIANT Universe.

Valiant has only ever produced commercial comics since day 1.

[ManofTheAtom]

STEP 2 - if you want to attract the mythical new readers then USE 1 title! Make it woke, manga, non binary whatever, go for your life with it but keep it separate to the good stuff.

There is a lot of truth to step 2. Do something no matter what it is if it is guaranteed to attract an audience. Worst case, it becomes a way to earn capital to finance production of the good stuff that may not be as financially successful.

Isn't that what they've been doing for many years now? Trying to pander to new 'modern', younger audiences? I would say do the opposite of that.

How about doing ONE mature, intelligent comic book that an educated adult can read without cringing all the way through?

It would be great if they could do both commercial comics and comics that are true to the identity of the VALIANT Universe.

Valiant has only ever produced commercial comics since day 1.

Commercial in this context means easy sell.

[ManofTheAtom]

Think of it like this,

Junk food is more commercial than health food.

VALIANT should be the equivalent of health food, while Alien can do other stuff that is easier to sell and more profitable like junk food without altering the quality of the VALIANT Universe.

[Ryan]

Think of it like this,

Junk food is more commercial than health food.

VALIANT should be the equivalent of health food, while Alien can do other stuff that is easier to sell and more profitable like junk food without altering the quality of the VALIANT Universe.

Eh, but why? Why not just start with making good Valiant comics?

[Dallow Spicer1]

Think of it like this,

Junk food is more commercial than health food.

VALIANT should be the equivalent of health food, while Alien can do other stuff that is easier to sell and more profitable like junk food without altering the quality of the VALIANT Universe.

In this scenario which one is the easy to sell books, the VEI style or the ‘attract new customers woke/manga/whatever’ books.

Because in my head, the (step 1) version of going back to VEI style is the easier to sell. Whereas step 2 (the woke/manga etc) is the waste of time but just do it anyway as publishers still believe it’ll bring in new readers after 5 years + of proven failure.

[ManofTheAtom]

Think of it like this,

Junk food is more commercial than health food.

VALIANT should be the equivalent of health food, while Alien can do other stuff that is easier to sell and more profitable like junk food without altering the quality of the VALIANT Universe.

Eh, but why? Why not just start with making good Valiant comics?

"Good" comics are not necessarily the same as "commercial" comics.

[ManofTheAtom]

Think of it like this,

Junk food is more commercial than health food.

VALIANT should be the equivalent of health food, while Alien can do other stuff that is easier to sell and more profitable like junk food without altering the quality of the VALIANT Universe.

In this scenario which one is the easy to sell books, the VEI style or the ‘attract new customers woke/manga/whatever’ books.

Because in my head, the (step 1) version of going back to VEI style is the easier to sell. Whereas step 2 (the woke/manga etc) is the waste of time but just do it anyway as publishers still believe it’ll bring in new readers after 5 years + of proven failure.

What I'm suggesting is that Alien could do VALIANT comics in the VEI style and non-VALIANT comics in the other style.

Making VALIANT comics in the second style is how we ended up with VH 2's HAEDUS one-shot...

[TheFerg714]

Jfc you guys... will this argument ever end?

[syzhang28]

This poll is very telling, despite MOTA voting using his aliases there's not many people that really care. It's like 12 votes between the two options. Conclusion, this topic is a waste of life.

[daniellew61]

I had to fill out dismissal paperwork with Valiant, and all new hire forms when I was hired at Alien Books. But I know this is not what the poll is asking lol.

[GammaJosh]

Are two completely separate companies really the same company even though they're clearly not? Was Alien who didn't publish Valiant books at the time responsible for DMG screwing up? All I'm gonna say is this thread has big "Why wasn't Obama in the White House on 9/11?" energy.

[ManofTheAtom]

Are two completely separate companies really the same company even though they're clearly not? Was Alien who didn't publish Valiant books at the time responsible for DMG screwing up? All I'm gonna say is this thread has big "Why wasn't Obama in the White House on 9/11?" energy.

Indeed.