Just not feeling it anymore

[ManofTheAtom]

Could have been much worse; DMG could have rebooted VALIANT like Acclaim did.

At least Alien is still building off what Dinesh accomplished.

[Ryan]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

Overall I agree with your point. When Valiant is good, it has realism and verisimilitude. I just think the way you describe it sounds boring, like Valiant as a mediocre tv show.

If all Shadowman did was fight drug pusher of the week, it would be super boring. He only got exciting when Darque was introduced. Magnus 1-4 wasn't a robot investigation procedural. He fought hundreds of robots, it was just more realistic and logical.

All I'm saying is that with the realism there also needs to be an element of exciting super hero fantasy. No one else may agree, that's fine.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

Overall I agree with your point. When Valiant is good, it has realism and verisimilitude. I just think the way you describe it sounds boring, like Valiant as a mediocre tv show.

If all Shadowman did was fight drug pusher of the week, it would be super boring. He only got exciting when Darque was introduced. Magnus 1-4 wasn't a robot investigation procedural. He fought hundreds of robots, it was just more realistic and logical.

All I'm saying is that with the realism there also needs to be an element of exciting super hero fantasy. No one else may agree, that's fine.

I'm not saying that they should be written like procedurals. I'm saying that they should have the grounded tone of procedurals.

[Ryan]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

Overall I agree with your point. When Valiant is good, it has realism and verisimilitude. I just think the way you describe it sounds boring, like Valiant as a mediocre tv show.

If all Shadowman did was fight drug pusher of the week, it would be super boring. He only got exciting when Darque was introduced. Magnus 1-4 wasn't a robot investigation procedural. He fought hundreds of robots, it was just more realistic and logical.

All I'm saying is that with the realism there also needs to be an element of exciting super hero fantasy. No one else may agree, that's fine.

I'm not saying that they should be written like procedurals. I'm saying that they should have the grounded tone of procedurals.

Got it. I misunderstood. I agree with that. In one of the interviews from the time Shooter says they're doing Masterpiece Theatre with superheroes. Exactly what you're saying.

[Ryan]

Also not feeling it. Still nostalgic over early Valiant (which right now is what is mainly discussed here), but not even Dinesh found that magic again. Hope Alien can find something similar. If they do - let me know.

/Magnus

I think you guys are just old. I read VEI first starting in 2012 and 2012-2018 was some of the best comics I've ever read. I have now read the 1990s Valiant and its fine. Some good stuff like Archer & Armstrong but mostly just really solid but nothing life-changing.

100000% agree... when I started reading the 2012 vei.. they were amazing books for the most part..dmg took over..sheiit went down the drain fast

You should give Alien a shot then. The new book looked very VEI continuity heavy, looks like they're trying to get the lapsed VEI readers back.

[ManofTheAtom]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

Overall I agree with your point. When Valiant is good, it has realism and verisimilitude. I just think the way you describe it sounds boring, like Valiant as a mediocre tv show.

If all Shadowman did was fight drug pusher of the week, it would be super boring. He only got exciting when Darque was introduced. Magnus 1-4 wasn't a robot investigation procedural. He fought hundreds of robots, it was just more realistic and logical.

All I'm saying is that with the realism there also needs to be an element of exciting super hero fantasy. No one else may agree, that's fine.

I'm not saying that they should be written like procedurals. I'm saying that they should have the grounded tone of procedurals.

Got it. I misunderstood. I agree with that. In one of the interviews from the time Shooter says they're doing Masterpiece Theatre with superheroes. Exactly what you're saying.

Indeed.

[syzhang28]

I have now read the 1990s Valiant and its fine. Some good stuff like Archer & Armstrong but mostly just really solid but nothing life-changing.

Disagree I dare say it did change my life

/Magnus

Well your name does make you a little biased

[syzhang28]

Also not feeling it. Still nostalgic over early Valiant (which right now is what is mainly discussed here), but not even Dinesh found that magic again. Hope Alien can find something similar. If they do - let me know.

/Magnus

I think you guys are just old. I read VEI first starting in 2012 and 2012-2018 was some of the best comics I've ever read. I have now read the 1990s Valiant and its fine. Some good stuff like Archer & Armstrong but mostly just really solid but nothing life-changing.

I want to get banned so here goes....syzhang28, you are a cock

Literally dumbfounded as to what I said that made you feel this way. Am I not allowed to have an opinion about original Valiant reading like old man comics to someone who wasn't there way back when?

[syzhang28]

I was suspended from the Valiant FB group this last week. I have no idea why. I keep it clean and positive. I’m not bitter or anything. It’s just the icing on the cake though. Who wants to be part of a group that is relatively cranky, and doesn’t want you there even when you are nothing but positive? I mean, the vitriol I’ve seen these, and I get suspended? I’m the guy you want in that group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wait, what?!? How is this possible. You are a huge valiant fan and I’ve always seen you post in a open an honest way. I’m shocked. They know your love for valiant for sure and they banned you!! Not happy with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree. Sounds like you're better off not being there. That sucks.

[syzhang28]

Also not feeling it. Still nostalgic over early Valiant (which right now is what is mainly discussed here), but not even Dinesh found that magic again. Hope Alien can find something similar. If they do - let me know.

/Magnus

I think you guys are just old. I read VEI first starting in 2012 and 2012-2018 was some of the best comics I've ever read. I have now read the 1990s Valiant and its fine. Some good stuff like Archer & Armstrong but mostly just really solid but nothing life-changing.

If VEI really were the best comics ever, I feel like there would a lot more discussion about them (or at least some discussion). It seemed like a lot of decompressed cryptic mystery box storytelling that didn't go anywhere and style over substance to me.

From what I've read here people confuse the things VEI did and feel like they happened way back in the 90s. Maybe because they fit so well with the characters and the universe. VEI really knew what made Valiant tick. In a way that I dare say even the old guys maybe did but not consciously because they were building from a blank page. Things like the Bloodshot / Harbinger relationship is VEI. The Vine makes much more sense than the spider-alien backstory and is VEI. General Trill and his nuance difference from the religion of the armor (also new to VEI) was more sophisticated. Dr. Mirage is a much deeper story in VEI. Divinity is all VEI. The whole 4001 side is much more fleshed out and connected to present day because of VEI. Gilad's story is much more nuanced in VEI. I give you that it might feel like a mystery box because they didn't get to tell their full story. They were pushed out by DMG and then DMG didn't continue the stories with any quality.

[syzhang28]

Also not feeling it. Still nostalgic over early Valiant (which right now is what is mainly discussed here), but not even Dinesh found that magic again. Hope Alien can find something similar. If they do - let me know.

/Magnus

I think you guys are just old. I read VEI first starting in 2012 and 2012-2018 was some of the best comics I've ever read. I have now read the 1990s Valiant and its fine. Some good stuff like Archer & Armstrong but mostly just really solid but nothing life-changing.

Personal opinions about the quality of the books aside, I think the 'magic' he's referring to is capturing the long-term excitement of a fanbase.

The Valiant fans were a movement in the 10+ years after the original comics stopped coming out. There was so much discussion, interest, and excitement about these characters returning, all based on people loving the original comics.

Everything VEI did was fueled by that. Where is that now? The brand seems to be at an all time low. That's the magic he's referring to.

VEI feels like its in a better place than original Valiant was at this point after the the change they had. Wasn't Valiant basically completely dead except for right here for most of the early 90s. Its VEI that brought the original Valiant conversation. VEI and trends coming back. I think VEI needs the same time. Even now its being talked about here which is a place built to talk about the original.

[syzhang28]

Despite the books being of mostly high quality and aimed at a mature adult audience, there were still problems (IMO) with how VEI did things. However since DMG it seems like the last people they're making the comics for are the core fans.

It looks like with the Valentine's special as one of the first launches, Alien is still chasing the "untapped" market. Maybe it is the only viable market at this point since many other companies have chased off the core fans away/a segment of core fans have aged and died. I didn't hate the story itself, but sigh, this is really a time to be relaunching the Valiant properties with something exciting to hook some readers.

In 10 years, it'll be interesting to see the case studies on how comics targeting non-fans and not watering anything for your core base played out. We're already seeing it, but seems like we have three schools of thought in the industry.

1) DC approach, leave Batman untouched since he's paying all the bills and be careful of the changes to not upset readers. Try to make "fetch" happen with a new character like Harley Quinn or Suicide Squad so you're not having to keep doing less and less effective reboots with the ones that make money.

2) Marvel approach, make a Spiderverse so you can leave Peter Parker lore untouched after ruining it with One More Day and countless Peter traumas. Use the Multiverse angle to fit in your queer spiderman to shoot webs from crutches, and try to throw it all against the wall and hope a loyal fanbase comes out of one of the properties.

3) Abandon the aging readers, laugh off the superhero as an outdated male power fantasy, and start utilizing the super hero property to pitch your talent at writing TV drama where the characters just happen to have a costume.

Some people are knocking Ninjak here, but I loved just having a basic and simple comic story with some fun visual dynamics. That and ones like Superman Man of Tomorrow (2021) are what I think has a chance at getting the new readers.

Great post

[syzhang28]

3) Abandon the aging readers, laugh off the superhero as an outdated male power fantasy, and start utilizing the super hero property to pitch your talent at writing TV drama where the characters just happen to have a costume.

EXACTLY.

VALIANT stories should have the same tone and style as a police procedural or legal/medical drama. The alternative is the Arrowverse or the Marvel Comedic Universe.

I really don't agree. This sounds boring. I don't mean to say you're wrong, just that I want my comics to be fun and exciting. VEI did the right balance. Great character drama and super fun science fiction. I don't need Valiant to read like CSI, Suits or ER.

[syzhang28]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

Agree, he wasn't deconstructing. He was properly updating to modern (at the time) superhero storytelling. Same thing VEI did in 2012.

[syzhang28]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

It's like we read different books. Right before he met Harada (through a telephone that he portaled into) he had a big break in and fight with a bunch of superheroes. I think you read this at the right age and have a selective, rose tinted, memory of it. Even original Valiant was very superhero.

[syzhang28]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

Overall I agree with your point. When Valiant is good, it has realism and verisimilitude. I just think the way you describe it sounds boring, like Valiant as a mediocre tv show.

If all Shadowman did was fight drug pusher of the week, it would be super boring. He only got exciting when Darque was introduced. Magnus 1-4 wasn't a robot investigation procedural. He fought hundreds of robots, it was just more realistic and logical.

All I'm saying is that with the realism there also needs to be an element of exciting super hero fantasy. No one else may agree, that's fine.

"realism and verisimilitude" is a much better way to say it than I did

[ManofTheAtom]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

It's like we read different books. Right before he met Harada (through a telephone that he portaled into) he had a big break in and fight with a bunch of superheroes. I think you read this at the right age and have a selective, rose tinted, memory of it. Even original Valiant was very superhero.

You're thinking of the Eggbreakers. Not really "villains" per se, but more like hired muscle, henchmen.

Shooter should have dwelled more on that. Given Solar a "WTF"-moment as he tried to make sense of how such individuals could exist in what seemed to otherwise be the real world.

[Ryan]

From what I've read here people confuse the things VEI did and feel like they happened way back in the 90s. Maybe because they fit so well with the characters and the universe. VEI really knew what made Valiant tick. In a way that I dare say even the old guys maybe did but not consciously because they were building from a blank page. Things like the Bloodshot / Harbinger relationship is VEI. The Vine makes much more sense than the spider-alien backstory and is VEI. General Trill and his nuance difference from the religion of the armor (also new to VEI) was more sophisticated. Dr. Mirage is a much deeper story in VEI. Divinity is all VEI. The whole 4001 side is much more fleshed out and connected to present day because of VEI. Gilad's story is much more nuanced in VEI. I give you that it might feel like a mystery box because they didn't get to tell their full story. They were pushed out by DMG and then DMG didn't continue the stories with any quality.

Right on. I may not agree with all your conclusions, but I'm glad you brought some examples to back them up.

I would agree that VEI was better constructed than VH1. But that's because VH1 was being created on the fly while VEI had years of hindsight and all they had to do was build off of what VH1 had created.

I admit I'm biased against a lot of modern comics storytelling conventions, and I've never been able to get into Matt Kindt's writing despite many tries. Different strokes... and certainly a lot of preference is always based what someone was exposed to first and what age/state of mind they were in when they got into something.

[Ryan]

VEI feels like its in a better place than original Valiant was at this point after the the change they had. Wasn't Valiant basically completely dead except for right here for most of the early 90s. Its VEI that brought the original Valiant conversation. VEI and trends coming back. I think VEI needs the same time. Even now its being talked about here which is a place built to talk about the original.

Time will Tell I guess. It's hard to compare because the state of the internet and the comics industry has changed so much since the 90s. I do think people who weren't there underestimate how big Valiant got at its peak, and how many more people read comics back then.

[syzhang28]

I'd point you to Shooter's Solar, and how he used itto deconstruct superheroes by contrasting the comic booky world of Doctor Solar against the real world of Phil Seleski.

I contend that the main problem with Shooter's Doctor Solar from Dark Horse is that it fell victim to the same things he said were silly about it in VALIANT's Solar. Same goes for Dynamite's version. They both helped to further cement that his initial approach at VALIANT with the character was the right one.

I get what your saying. I wouldn't call that deconstruction though. He still wore a red suit and fought super villains. The contrast was more against the original Dr. Solar's campiness and goofiness with Shooter's approach that was realistic and hard sci-fi (real science), but still a super hero story. It wasn't a scientist procedural with no super hero-ing, but there were definitely elements of that. It was balancing those things that made it so good, not going too far in either direction.

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

It's like we read different books. Right before he met Harada (through a telephone that he portaled into) he had a big break in and fight with a bunch of superheroes. I think you read this at the right age and have a selective, rose tinted, memory of it. Even original Valiant was very superhero.

You're thinking of the Eggbreakers. Not really "villains" per se, but more like hired muscle, henchmen.

Shooter should have dwelled more on that. Given Solar a "WTF"-moment as he tried to make sense of how such individuals could exist in what seemed to otherwise be the real world.

lol, the eggbreakers were in a ton of issues and they are villains. You're writing stuff that isn't in the books to make your preferred tone fit. Shooter didn't write that moment because that wasn't the tone he was writing. In this issue or any other book. Explain to me how Magnus #1 which launched Valiant has the tone of a legal drama?

[syzhang28]

From what I've read here people confuse the things VEI did and feel like they happened way back in the 90s. Maybe because they fit so well with the characters and the universe. VEI really knew what made Valiant tick. In a way that I dare say even the old guys maybe did but not consciously because they were building from a blank page. Things like the Bloodshot / Harbinger relationship is VEI. The Vine makes much more sense than the spider-alien backstory and is VEI. General Trill and his nuance difference from the religion of the armor (also new to VEI) was more sophisticated. Dr. Mirage is a much deeper story in VEI. Divinity is all VEI. The whole 4001 side is much more fleshed out and connected to present day because of VEI. Gilad's story is much more nuanced in VEI. I give you that it might feel like a mystery box because they didn't get to tell their full story. They were pushed out by DMG and then DMG didn't continue the stories with any quality.

Right on. I may not agree with all your conclusions, but I'm glad you brought some examples to back them up.

I would agree that VEI was better constructed than VH1. But that's because VH1 was being created on the fly while VEI had years of hindsight and all they had to do was build off of what VH1 had created.

I admit I'm biased against a lot of modern comics storytelling conventions, and I've never been able to get into Matt Kindt's writing despite many tries. Different strokes... and certainly a lot of preference is always based what someone was exposed to first and what age/state of mind they were in when they got into something.

That makes sense. Modern storytelling in comics isn't for you. Everyone has their preferences. Some people love Matt Kindt, he's very popular. Some don't. No right or wrong answer.

To your point about hindsight, its easy to watch an olympic athlete win a gold medal and say they just had to do x or y. Its true but they won because doing x or y is very, very hard. VEI did have to build off of what VH1 created but they also had to expand on it, deepen, it modernize it, identify and eliminate the bad parts, bring in new fans (like me) while servicing the old (you? not sure, dont want to assume), and do it with magnus, solar and turok all gone. Huge hole. And its not so easy. Acclaim tried. DMG tried. Shooter tried at Dark Horse. Alien is trying. All have failed. Maybe not Alien yet. Fingers are crossed for them.

[syzhang28]

VEI feels like its in a better place than original Valiant was at this point after the the change they had. Wasn't Valiant basically completely dead except for right here for most of the early 90s. Its VEI that brought the original Valiant conversation. VEI and trends coming back. I think VEI needs the same time. Even now its being talked about here which is a place built to talk about the original.

Time will Tell I guess. It's hard to compare because the state of the internet and the comics industry has changed so much since the 90s. I do think people who weren't there underestimate how big Valiant got at its peak, and how many more people read comics back then.

That's a good point. You do also have to give a lot of credit to 90s timing. If VH1 launched in 2012 or today I don't think they would have very much impact. I don't think they would have been anywhere near as big as VEI. But then if VEI had launched in the 90s they wouldn't have done what Valiant did. The right two approaches for the right two times.

[The Harbinger]

VALIANT fiction should be like a police procedural like Blue Bloods or medical drama like Gray's Anatomy but in which the characters are superheroes who wear superhero costumes instead of scrubs and uniforms and fight supervillains instead of arrest drug dealers or perform complex operations.

That's what Shooter did with Solar. The first villain he fought was Harada, a businessman who happened to have psychic abilities.

I come away from that run with the complete opposite. Shooter's run...

After fighting the businessman...

vs himself in colorful explosions

vs aliens in space

vs Kama the dragon lady (and Roman aliens)

vs the Godchild, a magical baby

and we're not at issue #10 yet

Solar was a little more pensive in his narration and less lovesick than Peter Parker, but he was definitely participating in a super hero story fighting out of this world villains

[Ryan]

That makes sense. Modern storytelling in comics isn't for you. Everyone has their preferences. Some people love Matt Kindt, he's very popular. Some don't. No right or wrong answer.

To your point about hindsight, its easy to watch an olympic athlete win a gold medal and say they just had to do x or y. Its true but they won because doing x or y is very, very hard. VEI did have to build off of what VH1 created but they also had to expand on it, deepen, it modernize it, identify and eliminate the bad parts, bring in new fans (like me) while servicing the old (you? not sure, dont want to assume), and do it with magnus, solar and turok all gone. Huge hole. And its not so easy. Acclaim tried. DMG tried. Shooter tried at Dark Horse. Alien is trying. All have failed. Maybe not Alien yet. Fingers are crossed for them.

This is a fun discussion but we've done the VEI vs. VH1 a lot before, lets look forward and back on topic.

Alien is doing a continuation of the VEI universe right now with all new writers that had nothing to do with previous DMG comics. Why aren't more of the VEI fans excited? Where are they all? Why are long-time super invested fans dropping out now, of all times?

To continue your comparison of 90s vs 2010s, if this was the year 2001 and we were finally getting a continuation of the VH1 universe after 5 years of VH2 and other failed launches, there would have been a ton of excitement and interest. Even if people didn't like how it looked, there still would have been a ton of interest. Why is there so little now?

I flipped through the first book, and as a non-VEI fan I didn't see much for me. Ninjak with all his girlfriends from the Kindt run, Bloodshot with his family (?), Archer with Faith, etc. All stuff from VEI continuity that I have no interest in.

What I want in a Bloodshot story is action, guns, mobsters and sci-fi in a sophisticated but fun story. Not some family drama from comics I never read. But it's obviously not for me, it's for the VEI fans and that's understandable, but why aren't they more interested? Or maybe they are and I haven't seen it, or they aren't on this board?

[syzhang28]

Good point. Let's look forward.

IMO the Alien problem is simple but the solution is very hard. Valiant readers who loved VEI and before have been burnt pretty badly since Dinesh was fired. The DMG books have been mostly bad to very bad (with a bright spot here or there). Fans are rightly cautious of Alien being more of the same. The simple solution for Alien is to show that they are not more of the same. That they will be good. Maybe even show us that they will be great like VEI.

The very hard solution to do that is through the choices of which characters to publish, which names to name the titles, the cover art, previews of some interior art, story concepts. Basic marketing. In those choices Alien have been very poor imo. The books might be great (by all accounts so far they are mediocre to bad but that's not important) but what they have shown us so that we get excited has looked very much more of the same. The cover art has been pretty uninspired in idea and very average in execution. There are no real big cool story ideas yet. etc. I used to love the VEI events because they did so much good marketing. It was just as fun getting hyped as it was reading the story. Bad Idea is great at this. The current Tankers Kickstarter videos are unique and the small art teases they've shown show that the comics are going to A+. Alien need to show us something that wows us. Otherwise, fans will assume it'll be more DMG. IMO