Overstreet #34

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:56 pm

Ok...so it came out today, perused it....a couple mentions of Valiant, in terms of 'paying crazy prices for variants', but nothing directly referring to Valiant that I can see...

X-O 1/2 Gold isn't even listed.

Prices are pretty much the same from last year.

The 9.2 thing sucks, as well. All of a sudden, EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING...took a huge swing up that isn't justified by simply switching the numbers down.

Bah.

And...some VERY odd price swings (when does anything older than 1970 ever go DOWN in price....?) such as a 33% increase for Daredevil #2? 33% for X-Men #3 and #4? Really? 33%??

greg · Post by **greg** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:09 pm

About 40% of the listing changes (not prices, just listing references) that
I submitted were implemented. Oh well, I'll try again this year.

My market report starts on page 77 and graces about half of page 78.

Surprisingly, I'm not the only advisor who mentions Valiant... interesting.

You're right, the prices aren't very different... but there are "hints" of big things.
Last year, not a SINGLE Valiant book listed for more than $10.
(And the $10 books were mostly the TPBs that originally sold for $9.95)

This year...
Armorines #0 Stand Alone (cardstock cover) lists for $25.
Harbinger #0 Pink lists for $28.

It's interesting that both are books that I listed as "requested changes",
not price guide changes... reference changes...
since Armorines #0 Stand Alone wasn't listed,
and Harbinger #0 was called "advance" with no mention of the pink cover.

Both of these books were added or corrected and the prices are pretty good...
considering the "NM- 9.2 condition" stipulation.

I'm wondering if my price guide changes got overlooked,
and the only price research was for these two particular issues... hmmm...

At any rate, it looks like I should probably keep the ValiantComics.com guide
up-to-date since Overstreet won't exactly be replacing it anytime soon.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:14 pm

Forgot to mention the only Valiant info worth reading, the great article by some guy named Greg Holland at Valiantcomics.com.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:01 am

What's really weird is that when I was a kid, I used to put my initials
on page 77 of all my books. I figured if anyone stole my books and
erased my name out of the cover, I could still prove that a book
was mine by looking on page 77. (Even then I was a geek...)

Where's my first Overstreet book article again? Page 77.

BodaZoffa · Post by **BodaZoffa** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:10 am

greg wrote:What's really weird is that when I was a kid, I used to put my initials
on page 77 of all my books. I figured if anyone stole my books and
erased my name out of the cover, I could still prove that a book
was mine by looking on page 77. (Even then I was a geek...)

Where's my first Overstreet book article again? Page 77.

Coincidence or psychic phenomona......... hmmmmm

Shakespeare · Post by **Shakespeare** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:07 pm

What's this mean?

The 9.2 thing sucks, as well. All of a sudden, EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING...took a huge swing up that isn't justified by simply switching the numbers down.

x-omatic · Post by **x-omatic** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:52 pm

Shakespeare wrote:What's this mean?

The 9.2 thing sucks, as well. All of a sudden, EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING...took a huge swing up that isn't justified by simply switching the numbers down.

Overstreet had print NM as 9.4, they now print the NM price as 9.2. My inderstanding is that they didn't adjust prices when they made this change. So NM 9.4 books just to a price jump in value.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:59 pm

Shakespeare wrote:What's this mean?

The 9.2 thing sucks, as well. All of a sudden, EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING...took a huge swing up that isn't justified by simply switching the numbers down.

What X-O said.

None of the prices were adjusted DOWN from the 9.4 grade (why not? Database information would then have to be changed, and we can't AFFORD that), and thousands of them were adjusted UP. Basically, all the values for the last guide in 9.4 became the starting values for 9.2...plus whatever the books jumped in ACTUAL for in 'top grade'. For example...X-Men #11....in 2003 OPG, $333.5 in 9.2. In 2004 9,2, $600. That's a STAGGERING 80% INCREASE in price in ONE YEAR for an average, run of the mill Silver Age X-Book.

Does anyone...anyone at ALL....reading this think this is justifiable by the actual market in ANY way? If so, PLEASE give me your justification for it. Has Overstreet utterly abandoned raw comics and priced everything according to CGC realizations? That's the ONLY explanation I think will fit this bizarre scenario.

Overstreet just basically gave nearly every single comic listed in the guide a totally unjustifiable 10-50% increase in price based solely on a number shift from 9.4 to 9.2. Harbinger #1, without changing a single dime, has now gone up 11% in value in 9.4, from $6 to $6.67.

This is the same with every single book listed. Has anyone found ANY comics that actually went DOWN in value from last year's guide? Or has Bobby and Arnold simply continued the grand ol' tradition that not a single one of the millions of comic books published in 70+ years has EVER gone down in value....at least, in the guide....?

Ugh. What a mess. What happens when the 'guides' have become so convoluted they don't make any sense to anyone? Is ANYONE going to attempt to print an ACCURATE price guide for comics based on intellectual honesty, and not what the national dealers.collectors wish their comics were worth? Anyone at all...? I mean, besides the niche that Valiantcomics.com is....

kryptonitecomics · Post by **kryptonitecomics** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:56 am

I haven't even lloked at the new overstreet yet, but I will say that I feel like the 10%-50% Adjustment up in NM prices does follow the trends being seen in the Market.

Due to the prices being realized by CGC books, raw NM prices have increased substantially as well. I don't even want to conceive of a 9.2 being the highest grade in OS, but unfortunately that is now a reality.

I think one of the things throwing off some of the prices is the fact that they are including both raw and CGC copies in their pricing evaluations. This means that their prices are too high when compared to the actually market selling prices of raw books, but are still too low when looking at the CGC market. I don't have a fix for this myself, but the bottom line is it's just a guide and regardless of what the guide says a book is worth, the market is really going to decide the true value.

Shakespeare · Post by **Shakespeare** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:20 am

Overstreet had print NM as 9.4, they now print the NM price as 9.2.

Does that mean that 9.2 is NM, or NM-? Doesn't that fly in the face of last year's grading guide?

It would be nice to have a price guide that is based in reality (Darkhawk #3 -- $.50), but from where would you get the information? A single team would have to scour every comic shop in America to get the actual prices, not what the dealers wish they could get.

kryptonitecomics · Post by **kryptonitecomics** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:14 pm

9.2 is still NM-, but that's the highest grade in Overstreet now.....it has always been 9.4.

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:39 pm

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:15 pm

kryptonitecomics wrote:I haven't even lloked at the new overstreet yet, but I will say that I feel like the 10%-50% Adjustment up in NM prices does follow the trends being seen in the Market.

Please note...this does NOT take into account the 'normal' upswings in price for any given issue. This is simply that every single comic listed in Overstreet went up in 'guide value' by simply calling 9.4 '9.2'. And...what market would warrant a 10-50% upswing in price for, say, X-Men #214? Batman #409? Avengers #127? Superman #168? Are you saying that EVERY single book listed in the OPG should be valued higher than last year's OPG? ALL of them...?

Due to the prices being realized by CGC books, raw NM prices have increased substantially as well. I don't even want to conceive of a 9.2 being the highest grade in OS, but unfortunately that is now a reality.

Again, what are we talking about here? Key silver age? Run of the mill modern? Cause, ya know, Youngblood #1 went up in price, too...

I think one of the things throwing off some of the prices is the fact that they are including both raw and CGC copies in their pricing evaluations. This means that their prices are too high when compared to the actually market selling prices of raw books, but are still too low when looking at the CGC market. I don't have a fix for this myself, but the bottom line is it's just a guide and regardless of what the guide says a book is worth, the market is really going to decide the true value.

Except that during it's entire 34 year history, the OPG has consistently been the result of conflict of interest, representing *not* actual market conditions, but the dealers who wished to sell, for better prices, the items they had to sell. It's almost always been Overstreet that determines the market, not the other way around (as a true price guide would.) Show me one raw book that sells for Guide or more, and I can show you 1,000 that sell for 50% or less. Even CGC books, with the '9.6 and up factor' involved, still sell for less than theoretical OPG guide values on a consistent basis.

lobo · Post by **lobo** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:14 pm

If you see books listed at cover price in the guide that are at least a few years old, then you can safely assume that the book can be commonly found in the $1 or 50/25 cent bins.
I think overstreet wants to maintain a certain status quo in a collectors market by keeping books at their original cover price to maintain the average of what a bargain price might bring (cheap bins) and the prices spent just above cover price within a $2 limit before they consider a price increase in the guide.

Maybe the publishers privately told overstreet to never list a book below its cover price, because the publishers don't want to let collectors know its OK to buy books cheaper than cover. They want to maintain as high as possible new issue sales at cover price.

comicguy · Post by **comicguy** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:20 am

Does anyone remember several years ago when OPG readjusted the grade price percentages down. Anybogy with VG or F copies of silver age really lost value of those books, heck even VF lost value. I guess maybe this sorta makes up for it a bit.

kryptonitecomics · Post by **kryptonitecomics** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:26 am

ZephyrWasHOT!! wrote:
kryptonitecomics wrote:I haven't even looked at the new overstreet yet, but I will say that I feel like the 10%-50% Adjustment up in NM prices does follow the trends being seen in the Market.

Please note...this does NOT take into account the 'normal' upswings in price for any given issue. This is simply that every single comic listed in Overstreet went up in 'guide value' by simply calling 9.4 '9.2'. And...what market would warrant a 10-50% upswing in price for, say, X-Men #214? Batman #409? Avengers #127? Superman #168? Are you saying that EVERY single book listed in the OPG should be valued higher than last year's OPG? ALL of them...?

I can pretty safely say the vast majority of Bronze Age and older, along with the key modern issues. Since people are out their speculating, NM copies of most of the older stuff is being bought up in hopes of sending them off to CGC for high grades and then flipping them. This is driving the raw market up, especially the NM market. Is every book across the board...no way.

Due to the prices being realized by CGC books, raw NM prices have increased substantially as well. I don't even want to conceive of a 9.2 being the highest grade in OS, but unfortunately that is now a reality.
Again, what are we talking about here? Key silver age? Run of the mill modern? Cause, ya know, Youngblood #1 went up in price, too...

Are you actually watching the market? There is no comic market for run of the mill Batman #419's or what ever else you quoted above. The market refers to actively traded books from what ever era you prefer. If you have a NM Bronze book maybe you get 60-80% of book. If you have a CGC 9.4 of that same book maybe you get 100%-300% for that same book. Makes no difference if we are talking GA, SA or BA or Modern key's, the price will either be set too high or too low which ever methodology they use.

I think one of the things throwing off some of the prices is the fact that they are including both raw and CGC copies in their pricing evaluations. This means that their prices are too high when compared to the actually market selling prices of raw books, but are still too low when looking at the CGC market. I don't have a fix for this myself, but the bottom line is it's just a guide and regardless of what the guide says a book is worth, the market is really going to decide the true value.
Except that during it's entire 34 year history, the OPG has consistently been the result of conflict of interest, representing *not* actual market conditions, but the dealers who wished to sell, for better prices, the items they had to sell. It's almost always been Overstreet that determines the market, not the other way around (as a true price guide would.) Show me one raw book that sells for Guide or more, and I can show you 1,000 that sell for 50% or less. Even CGC books, with the '9.6 and up factor' involved, still sell for less than theoretical OPG guide values on a consistent basis.

Yes but if the market determined that raw NM books typically traded at 50% of guide last year and now due to speculation and CGC grading in the market place they sell for 60 or 70% guide this year then the adjustment by Overstreet would reflect the change in the market, which I believe it does in general. Across the board, no your right about that, but I have always considered OPG a little low and a lot of their prices, most likely due to buying a lot of CGC books that typically trade above the OPG value. If I bought all of my books raw, then I would be happy for the most part since as you stated, you can get most comics for under guide.

So in a nut shell we can totally agree that an across the board increase on every book in OPG would not make sense, but I do feel the NM market has been moving up in the past few years so most, but not all adjustments may have been warrented.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:15 am

kryptonitecomics wrote:
So in a nut shell we can totally agree that an across the board increase on every book in OPG would not make sense, but I do feel the NM market has been moving up in the past few years so most, but not all adjustments may have been warrented.

Ok, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. The SHIFT from 9.4 to 9.2 means that every single book in the OPG went up in 9.4 price, in addition to normal, and market justified, price increases. Above and beyond the shift from 9.4 to 9.2 were the 'normal' price increases we see every year. It's just that the shift did that to every single comic listed, not just those that 'went up in price normally'.

Are we on the same page?

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:35 am

2003, Overstreet listed Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.4.
2004, Overstreet lists Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.2.

Any questions?

Brother J · Post by **Brother J** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:47 am

2003, Overstreet listed Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.4.
2004, Overstreet lists Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.2.

Any questions?

Yeah, where can I buy about 100 of those at that price?

myron · Post by **myron** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:17 am

Brother J wrote:
2003, Overstreet listed Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.4.
2004, Overstreet lists Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.2.

Any questions?
Yeah, where can I buy about 100 of those at that price?

isnt' that the truth...

...where does overstreet get it's numbers from...do they pay any attention to ebay or the other auction houses and compile those numbers? Or is it all just a bunch of crap... :x

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:21 am

....Hey, I have an idea......let's all go over to the Overstreet offices & straighten them out about their stupid Price Guide.

BETTER YET......Greg, publish your own "Valiant Universe Price Guide"!:)

BEST YET......Let's keep Valiant's true value a secret, & continue to try to buy up copies for cheap prices...

---Steve G

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:26 pm

greg wrote:2003, Overstreet listed Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.4.
2004, Overstreet lists Unity 0 Red for $3.00 in NM 9.2.

Any questions?

<smirk>...I guess I kinda thought that'd be pretty self-evident.