Best Valiant Fighter?

[SlyTrooper]

I have always wondered which character would be considered the best hand-to-hand fighter in Valiant. I would naturally assume Gilad based on experience, but then there are people like Ninjak and Archer. Not sure whether Bloodshot should be considered. He doesn't seem particularly good at hand-to-hand; he always appeared more like a physical superiority type of character with basic military training to me. What do you guys think?

[greg]

It would probably either be Gilad or Archer... since Gilad has the personal experience and Archer has the knowledge of ... well... every style. Honorable mention to Armstrong, simply because he probably can overpower any opponent, even if he regularly does it clumsily.

I believe Mary Maria easily wins in the women's division. The other candidates are Psiots and we're not talking about using powers here.

[TheeBaldMoose]

Ohh! Debate that has nothing to do with politics? count me in!! This is actually a topic I had been rolling around in my head a little bit

OK, I see your Gilad, I get it. Knows all fighting forms. Would even consider him much stronger than many others, and brute strength is the area I wish to point out as his weakness here

Take Ninjak, a guy that not only uses his craft, but has been practicing it for years, a true assassin. Gilad knows many forms of martial arts, but wouldn't someone who uses it on a regular basis be able to utilize different techniques to best his counterpart? Personal fighting styles tend to stray from the truest art forms of martial arts. Someone like Ninjak would take what he has learned from other fights, and utilize them as part of his strategy. Sneaky trap here, surprise attack here, keep Gilad on his toes constantly! I will say you two have read worlds more than me, and my knowledge base is limited, but I've never seen Gilad utilize martial arts much, if at all in any of the books. He would only have a base line knowledge, although it would still be a master form, just not a practiced master form, if that makes any sense.

Point #2, Gilad has honor and would stand by that honor at all costs, Ninjak not so much. Say Ninjak is at the point of giving up, and would say "OK, I've just about had enough, can't take anymore". Well, wouldn't he be more likely to take that time to find a way to trick Gilad? If the shoe were on the other foot, Gilad would honor the surrender and quit fighting.

Point #3, Ninjak would retreat, Gilad would continue to push through, regardless of damage taken. Ninjak would use shadows to catch his breath, find weaknesses, make new strategies, etc. Gilad would catch his breath, but would do it in the wide open. Ninjak would then utilize stars, or other items to keep him moving, never giving him a chance to regain his strength.

I am sure there are more items I can think up regarding how Ninjak, but we can start here

[Psiot X]

Vincent Van Goat

[Keith]

I think this goes along with the consensus so far:

1) Archer
2) Gilad
3) Ninjak

[Brother Darque]

Eternal Warrior.

He's has thousands of years of experience.

[cray_ws]

My short list;

1. Rai - No other Valiant character has as much mastery of so many things like healing, teleportation, energy manipulation. His swordsmanship is second to none. As a hand-to-hand fighter he has no rival. He can be defeated by trickery and deceit. But a straight up fight he's the best of the best.

2. Archer - Based on what has been published so far, I'd say Archer is the second best hand-to-hand fighter for his highly adaptive ability to master multiple fighting techniques.

3. Roku - She's everything Ninjak is and more dangerous because of her psychic abilities.

4. Ninjak - A highly trained assassin, his forte is tactical deception and gadgetry subterfuge.

5. Gilad - I would've easily put him first, but I have yet to see him use his vast combat experience wisely, he ends up using brute force every time he's in trouble. Although there was one situation where he defeated or shall I say escaped Unity during the Book of Death story line. It was only time I've ever seen him use his tactical experience. Gilad may be the 'eternal warrior' but he doesn't strike me as this be-all-end all fighter. He's a brute who just happens to be immortal. I would like to see him as a legitimate strategist more than once.

[greg]

I'm confused by the parameters for this discussion.

If we're talking about hand-to-hand, then we're probably not talking about guns. Are we talking about swords? Seems like if your hand is holding something, you're not fighting hand-to-hand.

If a Psionic-Dampener is part of the parameters of the debate, so that we don't just say "Harada wins"... then I would need to remove my vote for Archer. Without accessing the Akashic Record (which is his psiot ability, I assume), he would be useless... unless he has mastered everything he has ever done previously from the Akashic Record.

Ninjak without a sword or shuriken or whatever weapon is significantly less able. If he was just as good without them, he wouldn't use them.

Eternal Warrior and Armstrong, presuming they're not psiots, would be the winners if I had to re-cast my vote.

[Nairbe]

I think you guys may be understating Gilad and overstating Ninjak. I love both characters, but remember Gilad owned all of UNITY in BoD. Granted he did set the stage for the fight. I would say Gilad and Archer are 1/1a, but Gilad did handle him and Armstrong in A&A Vol 1.

Either way, I'd say there is a big gap between Gilad/Archer and the rest of the Valiant U.

[SlyTrooper]

I'm confused by the parameters for this discussion.

If we're talking about hand-to-hand, then we're probably not talking about guns. Are we talking about swords? Seems like if your hand is holding something, you're not fighting hand-to-hand.

Let me reword the parameters then. I'm talking pure skill in melee. That can include weapons such as swords, axes etc. Powers can be used in this discussion to the extent that they affect the user's skill. So, Archer's ability to copy can be used. But, if Armstrong wins in a fight against Ninjak simply because he's stronger, then it doesn't count.

[ShadowTuga]

Gilad is the Best Tactician (told by other characters, don't remember who-Ninjak?), an Expert in (basically) all weapons from millenia ago till now, and he is an immortal world-travelller, meaning he's seen "ALL" of it when it comes to fighting.
I'd bet on this guy.

In my mind, what Archer can grab from the Akashik records has been "mastered" by Gilad a long time ago. Maybe I'm fanboying Gilad a bit, but that's just my opinion.

[TheeBaldMoose]

Narbe and Tugga, you are both saying the same thing to me, "Expert Tactician, Expert Weaponeer" and I get that, I really do. But who is better than an expert? A master. Someone who practices their craft constantly would be better than someone who is knowledgeable to the level of expert.

Besides BOD, what book did he really use his fighting skills beyond brute strength? Is he so strong, that he would overpower his opponent? Also, I would counter Tactician as well with the fight with Divinity, with him being the only one that was able to crack through Divinity's mind game. His shadow game as well would be better, better ambush I would think too.

If we only had the books to go off of (because like you guys, I'm a fan of both), could you stick by your choice?

[ShadowTuga]

I'd stick with it. The fact that Gilad is so confident in his abilities that he uses an old axe as his main weapon (destroying machines, undead, demons, etc) is my monthly visual proof.
Toughest hand-to-hand/melee fights would be Ninjak (a ninja skill is messed up- this guy took Aric down before he had a chance to counter), Armstrong (strength/endurance would make for a looooooong fight), Archer (ultimate Psiot or something- Gilad would have to constantly try to guess his next move, then block it with something better, making use of all his knowledge in different combat arts) and the X-O armour, of course- this would be tricky, and definitely the most challenging hand-to-hand fight. But Gilad is smarter in the arts of war than Aric, we have seen that; maybe he could use X-O's sometimes-blind rage to his own advantage, I don't know, honestly. But without the armour, Aric would be down in a sec.
Bloodshot would be a super-difficult fight, but I see Gilad exhausting him just by ways of being smarter. Bloodshot can be cut to pieces.

The Divinities and the Omega level Psiots are on a completely different league, imho. Actually, it's another sport.

[eschnit]

There's a scene in Dark Knight Rises that comes into play here, and may give Ninjak an advantage over Gilad and Archer, fear. Experience is mitigated by a lack of fear. If you're truly immortal, your skills maximized and mastery of them are limited to moments where you're pushed with something truly worth fighting for. Gilad is the lovable loser.

[Elveen]

We have an old OTV episode dedicated to this.

The answer is Aram.

[Tony_H]

We have an old OTV episode dedicated to this.

The answer is Aram.

I remember listening to that in the gym, and I believe it was made before before the appearance of Divinity. In a hand-to-hand fight, Divinity can change hands...anyone's.

[Elveen]

We have always handled this question with the idea that it's no powers.

Just fighting.

[Tony_H]

We have always handled this question with the idea that it's no powers.

Just fighting.

Got it. With that limitation, my money would be on Rai, given his advantageous factors of size, speed, strength, dexterity and cold clarity of thought (a trait which Gilad and Aram lack).