Why aren't more people reading Dr. Mirage?

[leonmallett]

I am an issue behind currently, but my question is simple: based on the warm regard for the Dr. Mirage series on the forum (admittedly we are a small, unrepresentative, and pretty much self-selecting sample), why is the book not even hitting the top 300 from issue 2 onward?

[Sven the Returned]

Do we know how many people read it digitally?

[leonmallett]

Do we know how many people read it digitally?

Good question: we don't, I have just been surprised that it isn't doing somewhat better compared to the rest of the line. Launching as a mini possibly doesn't help of course.

[Elveen]

People read the big 2. It is hard for an Indy to garner a big audience.

Being involved in the industry and doing so many shows has proven this to me.

That valiant has been so successful is amazing. I do see more valiant fans now than a year ago, but it is a slow build. I talk Valiant to so many peeps, and I'm a good salesman, but a great majority are DC marvel only. They will say as much.

Hopefully peeps will get the DDM trade and read it that way.

[depluto]

I've been reading it but I think it's kind of weird, like Shadowman. I personally prefer the more mainstream Valiant comics but I am glad they are trying diverse material. It's just not for me.

[depluto]

Hopefully peeps will get the DDM trade and read it that way.

That's a good point, this story would read so much better as a trade. If someone were to try and jump in on issue 3 or 4 they would have no idea what the hell is going on. No way a new reader would stick with it.

I think too much of the Valiant stuff is like this now, and maybe that's a problem with all the relaunching and renumbering. There's not as much of a continuity to the story and universe and all these minis are striking out in their own direction. I miss the days just a few months back when every month there was a Harbinger book, an X-O book, a Bloodshot book, etc.

[erwinrafael]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

[depluto]

Geez I didn't say it was a fetish, just a personal preference ... I prefer ongoing series. So sue me.

[Sven the Returned]

Do we know how many people read it digitally?

Good question: we don't, I have just been surprised that it isn't doing somewhat better compared to the rest of the line. Launching as a mini possibly doesn't help of course.

This one seems to appeal least for the traditional superhero fans who buy physical books. That could be a reason.

[leonmallett]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

[Sven the Returned]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

If they are willing to take losses to tell certain stories we should be grateful. I trust them enough so they won't banrupt the company because of it.

[leonmallett]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

Based on the ongoings so far, and even stripping out Unity #1, they average around 22,500 per first issue, while the mini series average something a little over 10,100 (factoring in 22K of The Valiant) for their fist issues.

Eternal Warrior Days of Steel looks like it had the lowest selling #1 of the mini series from VEI based on the data we have had access to.

It isn't just about minis vs. ongoings of course, as evidenced by Rai (the most recent ongoing) having a far, far stronger start than Eternal Warrior and Quantum and Woody, and better first issue sales than Archer and Armstrong and Shadowman.

I am willing to bet that next years ongoings launch above 10K, probably above 15K, which if it happens would still be much better than the launches for Shadowman: End Times, Eternal Warrior: Days of Steel, the death Defying Doctor Mirage, Harbinger Omegas and Q2: Return of Quantum and Woody.

[leonmallett]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

If they are willing to take losses to tell certain stories we should be grateful. I trust them enough so they won't banrupt the company because of it.

I am far from suggesting they will be bankrupt by their preponderance of minis, I just don't think it is an effective strategy for either growing the line, or drawing attention to an arguably under-read gem like Death Defying Doctor Mirage or Harbinger: Omegas.

Harbinger: Omegas seems to effectively be a lead-in to Imperium in some ways, but with Mirage I wonder why VEI didn't do what they did with Q&W and start DDM as an ongoing, even if they cancelled it after a year.

The minis thing seemingly compounds the self-imposed limit of 9 books per month, and does not seem to engender growth for the line as a whole.

[Sven the Returned]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

If they are willing to take losses to tell certain stories we should be grateful. I trust them enough so they won't banrupt the company because of it.

I am far from suggesting they will be bankrupt by their preponderance of minis, I just don't think it is an effective strategy for either growing the line, or drawing attention to an arguably under-read gem like Death Defying Doctor Mirage or Harbinger: Omegas.

Harbinger: Omegas seems to effectively be a lead-in to Imperium in some ways, but with Mirage I wonder why VEI didn't do what they did with Q&W and start DDM as an ongoing, even if they cancelled it after a year.

The minis thing seemingly compounds the self-imposed limit of 9 books per month, and does not seem to engender growth for the line as a whole.

We don't know how much is sold online and we don't know how much they will sell as trades yet.

[leonmallett]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

If they are willing to take losses to tell certain stories we should be grateful. I trust them enough so they won't banrupt the company because of it.

I am far from suggesting they will be bankrupt by their preponderance of minis, I just don't think it is an effective strategy for either growing the line, or drawing attention to an arguably under-read gem like Death Defying Doctor Mirage or Harbinger: Omegas.

Harbinger: Omegas seems to effectively be a lead-in to Imperium in some ways, but with Mirage I wonder why VEI didn't do what they did with Q&W and start DDM as an ongoing, even if they cancelled it after a year.

The minis thing seemingly compounds the self-imposed limit of 9 books per month, and does not seem to engender growth for the line as a whole.

We don't know how much is sold online and we don't know how much they will sell as trades yet.

Granted re: online, but even if those minis were selling as much again online as print, that would only match the ongoings, and of course does not factor in the digital sales of the ongoings.

As for the trades, they are tending to sell in smaller numbers comparatively across the line.

[leonmallett]

Ultimately I think a character like Shan is great for VEI. I just hope there will be more of her after the conclusion of the mini.

[jeremycoe]

Maybe it's selling less because there aren't variant covers.

[erwinrafael]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

But you are comparing apples and oranges because the ongoings have their A characters while the minis do not. Dr. Mirage is a second tier character, and if they launched it as an ongoing, we would all be lamenting the early demise of its ongoing. Using minis for the second tier characters is quite smart because it will avoid them always breaking out a negative press release of an ongoing getting cancelled. They seem to have learned their lesson with EW.

[lorddunlow]

Geez I didn't say it was a fetish, just a personal preference ... I prefer ongoing series. So sue me.

It's a fetish for me...


Ongoing.... Say it again! Ooh yeah!

[depluto]

Geez I didn't say it was a fetish, just a personal preference ... I prefer ongoing series. So sue me.

It's a fetish for me...


Ongoing.... Say it again! Ooh yeah!

I get the same thing from watching "Miracle."

Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again ...

[jmatt]

I'll be honest, I really wasn't expecting much from the book but am pleasantly surprised.

As another poster stated, the character and title were second tier even for Valiant fans. I walk past a zillion titles on the rack and never really consider reading them, so it's no wonder that Big 2 readers pay it no mind.

[leonmallett]

Why is this because it's a mini it is hurting sales argument persisting? I think The Valiant and EW Days of Steel's relative success shows that there is no correlation. Heck, Marvel and DC are makong killings out of miniseries. I just hope this fetish with ongoing series would die down, it does not have legs to stand on. It's not the 1990s anymore, a lot of fans actually do not care about ongoing status.

Now that the diatribe is over, I think Dr. Mirage is not selling higher because 1) it has no name creators, 2) it stars a character that is second-tier even at the Valiant level, 3) it is not a superhero comic book, which is traditionlly the staple in American comic books, 4) VEI seems to be planning not relly to make a killing off this from indiv issue sales but rather on the trade, where Van Meter has more pull and where comics of the supenatural genre fare better.

I'd disagree about minis hurting the potential sales. Look at the VEI sales of the first 4 issues of their ongoings, and do the same with their minis. There is a clear disparity, although The Valiant does have a nice healthy start.

But you are comparing apples and oranges because the ongoings have their A characters while the minis do not. Dr. Mirage is a second tier character, and if they launched it as an ongoing, we would all be lamenting the early demise of its ongoing. Using minis for the second tier characters is quite smart because it will avoid them always breaking out a negative press release of an ongoing getting cancelled. They seem to have learned their lesson with EW.

Erm, Eternal Warrior? Harbinger (Omegas)? And Shadowman? All second tier? That would leave what exactly as first tier?

All three of those can be fairly compared to their ongoing equivalent launches, as well as the latter issues of their ongoings.

[erwinrafael]

Eternal Warrior is second tier. It's not at the level of Rai, X-O Manowar, Bloodshot, Harbinger and A&A. Even in VH1, the EW series was not one of the core books. Dr. Mirage is even at a lower tier than EW.

Shadowman: End Times basically just continued the drop in sales of the ongoing. I've been saying this before but it was never marketed by VEI as a jumping on point, it was titled END TIMES, and it is basically a filler series. So you can not compare its first issue to the first issue of the ongoing.

The same goes with Harbinger Omegas. It was never marketed by VEI as a jumping-on point for new readers. It was designed as a bridging series. It was never a major initiative, and most likely they just did the series to clean the slate and make Imperium more new-reader friendly.

If you want minis that VEI is marketing as a major initiative, you have to look at The Valiant, Divinity, and the two previous event books, Armor HUnters and Harbinger Wars.

[Domixt]

I'm waiting for the trade for this one. Which I normally don't like to do, but thought I'd make a lovely package!

[leonmallett]

Eternal Warrior is second tier. It's not at the level of Rai, X-O Manowar, Bloodshot, Harbinger and A&A. Even in VH1, the EW series was not one of the core books. Dr. Mirage is even at a lower tier than EW.

Shadowman: End Times basically just continued the drop in sales of the ongoing. I've been saying this before but it was never marketed by VEI as a jumping on point, it was titled END TIMES, and it is basically a filler series. So you can not compare its first issue to the first issue of the ongoing.

The same goes with Harbinger Omegas. It was never marketed by VEI as a jumping-on point for new readers. It was designed as a bridging series. It was never a major initiative, and most likely they just did the series to clean the slate and make Imperium more new-reader friendly.

If you want minis that VEI is marketing as a major initiative, you have to look at The Valiant, Divinity, and the two previous event books, Armor HUnters and Harbinger Wars.

How is EW not a first tier character? By what definition? The character has had numerous appearances in other books during the VEI era, as well as his own short-lived ongoing, as well as being a cornerstone character for Unity.

Calling them 'bridging' titles is a redundant argument; they are the same characters/IP's and the series were never marketed as 'bridging' titles either.

And even when you may not choose ton compare to the ongoings first issues, but you can compare them to the final issues. As I have said previously, the true test will be Bloodshot: Reborn.

Armor Hunters and HW are both events, the spine for 12 and 18 books series respectively - that is certainly *not* a like for like comparison.