Just Some Thoughts (Old Valiant vs. New Valiant): XO & Harby

[KXXX]

Recently I've been fortunate enough to experience some of the oldest Valiant stuff for the first time. Just to put it in to perspective, especially for you old-timers, I've recently acquired Solar up to Unity, the Rai TPB and #5 Magnus up to 11 and the Harbinger TPB (with the hardcover coming soon). I'm also re-reading my original X-O's and since I've just completed my Unity set, well... Unity. It's good to have some of the gaps filled in, such as Ax's story and how he got to 'own' the Commando armor he had in the XO books.

This all being said, I'm also reading the VEI stuff as it comes out. I wanted to offer some thoughts from what may be a reasonably unique perspective.

I have to say I prefer the new Harby to old and the old XO to the new.

As for Harbinger, I feel like the old series was shallow compared to the new series. Almost all of the characters straight-up bother me in some way or another.
Torque is a *SQUEE*, and while I can kind of see how he'll 'come around' a little bit before the inevitable (that was spoiled for me long ago), I can't help but feel it won't be enough to move me. He's also the only person in history, real or fiction, to refer to a Coors as 'good beer.' I had to read that panel twice.
Faith strikes me as basically the same character as she is in the new series. This isn't such a bad thing as she's actually quite charming and the only one from whom cheesey dialogue is welcomed. She's sort of a nerdy greek chorus.
Flamingo started out relatively interesting, but seemed no more than a stereotype by #3. That whole incident with her and Rexo just reeks of the awful, *SQUEE* dialogue in after school specials. While we're on the subject of Rexo... uggh.
Kris... so far just kind of seems along for the ride. Aside from her 'tutoring' Torque, she's another character who I just can't seem to care about.
Pete is a ecent main character, but between these first four books and Unity I have a hard time really figuring him out. I'm sure reading 5-7 when my HC comes in will shed some light, but he just seems so inconsistent with his complexity.
Ax kind of cracks me up. He's such a weiner, and knowing where he ends up in the XO books makes him pretty believable as the insecure evil genius type.

As for the rest of what makes the book the book... I like the action. I like Pete's dark side and I like the plot development regarding the team coming together because of the time anomaly. I still can't wait to read the rest!

So for the new Harbinger book... Instead of going piece by piece, I'll just say that certain elements have played out brilliantly compared to the original. The death of Joe was actually something to feel as opposed to just a plot device. Pete's 'popping' process seems to be more than just a potential headache, which I'm sure will lead to some very interesting situations in the future. I'm glad that Pete's time at the foundation was spread out instead of just a #0 issue. I love Kris, despite her moonbat idealogy. She seems believable, which to me makes her likeable. Pete... I can't wait to see just how mad he gets. I'm also looking forward to the new Renegades, most of all Torque. He looks diesel. I love the action in the book. The only thing I can say bad is that the earlier art didn't sit so well with me. Everyone looked so... squinty.

Now for X-O...

The new book is too light on character development for me. I didn't quite realise this until I started wondering why the new Aric wasn't getting to me like the old Aric. I went back and read the Retribution TPB and a few subsequent issues. I spent some down-time there with Aric. In the new book, he barely seems to have time to *SQUEE* before he has to start fighting again. One of the things I found so enjoyable about the old XO was his adjustments to the world of the future. There were some hysterical moments as Aric got used to his surrundings and the Manowar armor. Ken was a great side kick (''I do not understand their ways, but they make great wizzers'') because of his contrast to Aric. Aric coming back carrying the head of a 'bandit' was a true testament to just how different his world was. I miss this in the new book. I find the action to be superb and the tone a bit more serious, which is a good thing. There's not much adjustment to the new world here, and what were once major plot points aren't getting much play. It feels a little rushed and as a result Aric just isn't the guy I remember.

[Phantom..]

I really enjoy the new harbinger, like you, I prefer it to the
I am not a team book reader, but the new version is a great introduction.
It is the first team book I have read since new - ok it's not a team book yet - but it is so solid.

Xo- love, both versions, all versions, just something about it that I enjoy. Liked the slower introduction to the character. Yes you are right, it has been full on since the start. But I have liked it. Maybe it needs a moment to adjust to reality - I think their was a bit, but maybe another.

Good post - not a rant at all.

[Phoenix8008]

I too prefer new Harbinger to old. I think I like new X-O better than the old as well though. I like that Aric isn't a cave man now. The suit doesn't have to do more than teach him English. He's already smart (but not wise). He's Maximus from Gladiator, or William Wallace from Braveheart. He's not an ape that needs to be housebroken. But you can still do the whole 'dealing with the new world' thing and not have him be a dunce. Granted that there hasn't been any time for that yet. He also doesn't take over Orb industries in issue #1 and have that responsibility hanging over him. I think we may have to wait till after Planet Death to see him back on earth and having real downtime and getting a look at New York, or other high tech modern day life. He has had a little down time at least. I LOVED the stuff in book #4 or 5 where he goes back to the battlefield in Italy and digs out the broken sword. Also in the rain forest in Peru his little alone time there to think about his past was great.

I think that is what the flashback scene in #8 is portraying. He is single minded and that anger has now transferred from the Romans to the Vine. Hence, Planet Death. Aric in VH1 went on a mission to kill all the Spider aliens on Earth. The new Aric is gonna go to THEIR world and start killing them from there. Maybe after Planet Death, when he returns to earth he'll start wiping out the Vine plantings here and then end up in control of their networked businesses ala Orb industries. Then we can get on with some of that old world vs new world stuff.

[MarkRoseHFX]

Pretty dead on analysis in my opinion. I still really like the original X-O and Harby but they do pale in comparison to the new stuff.

[Phoenix8008]

Pretty dead on analysis in my opinion. I still really like the original X-O and Harby but they do pale in comparison to the new stuff.

Dear lord, I just noticed that you have more posts than me and you only joined in June of this year while I'm coming up on my 5 year anniversary here!

Impressive... most impressive.

[FormerReader]

Pretty dead on analysis in my opinion. I still really like the original X-O and Harby but they do pale in comparison to the new stuff.

Dear lord, I just noticed that you have more posts than me and you only joined in June of this year while I'm coming up on my 5 year anniversary here!

Impressive... most impressive.

Pheonix, just tell him it's not the size of the post counts that count.

[dornwolf]

I too prefer new Harbinger to old. I think I like new X-O better than the old as well though. I like that Aric isn't a cave man now. The suit doesn't have to do more than teach him English. He's already smart (but not wise). He's Maximus from Gladiator, or William Wallace from Braveheart. He's not an ape that needs to be housebroken. But you can still do the whole 'dealing with the new world' thing and not have him be a dunce. Granted that there hasn't been any time for that yet. He also doesn't take over Orb industries in issue #1 and have that responsibility hanging over him. I think we may have to wait till after Planet Death to see him back on earth and having real downtime and getting a look at New York, or other high tech modern day life. He has had a little down time at least. I LOVED the stuff in book #4 or 5 where he goes back to the battlefield in Italy and digs out the broken sword. Also in the rain forest in Peru his little alone time there to think about his past was great.

I think that is what the flashback scene in #8 is portraying. He is single minded and that anger has now transferred from the Romans to the Vine. Hence, Planet Death. Aric in VH1 went on a mission to kill all the Spider aliens on Earth. The new Aric is gonna go to THEIR world and start killing them from there. Maybe after Planet Death, when he returns to earth he'll start wiping out the Vine plantings here and then end up in control of their networked businesses ala Orb industries. Then we can get on with some of that old world vs new world stuff.

I'm in agreement. I'm lucky and have the first X-O trade from V-1 and the new stuff and the new blows the old away. Specifically along the caveman no longer direction. My main problem is the lack of other characters. We're clearly slowly slowly building towards that but still. I do like the pace somewhat the as you grow to care more as the issues where they show Arics wife was sad stuff and I hope something is built with that other than "I'm all alone and I will kill you."

[Phoenix8008]

Pretty dead on analysis in my opinion. I still really like the original X-O and Harby but they do pale in comparison to the new stuff.

Dear lord, I just noticed that you have more posts than me and you only joined in June of this year while I'm coming up on my 5 year anniversary here!

Impressive... most impressive.

Pheonix, just tell him it's not the size of the post counts that count.

Right.... says the guy with TWICE as big a post count as me!

[bygranddesign]

I absolutely loved the original Harbinger. And specifically Peter Stanchek is probably one of my favorite comic book characters of all time. The build up of that comic leading up to the confrontation between Peter and Harada was epic and brilliant.

The New Harbinger has been very good but its basically following the blue print of its predecessor with some nice little twists here and there like the Harbinger candidates dying when trying to bring out their powers - and more emphasis on the Harbinger school, the bleading monk character etc is all pretty cool and intriguing. But I feel like they didn't really break new ground until the Kris-centric issue #6. I absolutely loved that issue and fell in love with Kris. I think the plot idea of her basically the leader and brains behind the group with a disturbed child-god like Peter at her command is brilliant.

I think the new Harbinger is great ... but i still need to see how the storyline unfolds for another 5+ issues before I can say its surpassed the original.

[Phoenix8008]

I absolutely loved the original Harbinger. And specifically Peter Stanchek is probably one of my favorite comic book characters of all time. The build up of that comic leading up to the confrontation between Peter and Harada was epic and brilliant.

The New Harbinger has been very good but its basically following the blue print of its predecessor with some nice little twists here and there like the Harbinger candidates dying when trying to bring out their powers - and more emphasis on the Harbinger school, the bleading monk character etc is all pretty cool and intriguing. But I feel like they didn't really break new ground until the Kris-centric issue #6. I absolutely loved that issue and fell in love with Kris. I think the plot idea of her basically the leader and brains behind the group with a disturbed child-god like Peter at her command is brilliant.

I think the new Harbinger is great ... but i still need to see how the storyline unfolds for another 5+ issues before I can say its surpassed the original.

One of the things I'm looking forward to is the confrontation between Peter and Harada... again. Yes, they did it in #5 and that was pretty large scale for that early in the series. Not the same as #25 of original Harby, but probably the biggest Psiot related event we've seen depicted in any of the new Valiant comics so far.

Now imagine the rematch after 10 or 20 issues of Peter and company on the run and gaining experience with their powers. And Peter not already being horribly wounded from his fight with Hidden Moon, no less. THAT'S what I'm waiting for.

[tated250]

Pretty dead on analysis in my opinion. I still really like the original X-O and Harby but they do pale in comparison to the new stuff.

Dear lord, I just noticed that you have more posts than me and you only joined in June of this year while I'm coming up on my 5 year anniversary here!

Impressive... most impressive.

Hey look when I joined and my post count no really I just prefer to lurk and see what good things others come up with.

[Phoenix8008]

Pretty dead on analysis in my opinion. I still really like the original X-O and Harby but they do pale in comparison to the new stuff.

Dear lord, I just noticed that you have more posts than me and you only joined in June of this year while I'm coming up on my 5 year anniversary here!

Impressive... most impressive.

Hey look when I joined and my post count no really I just prefer to lurk and see what good things others come up with.

Nothing wrong with that friend. I lurked here for a year or two before the news came down about VEI winning the lawsuit to get the rights back.

[tetrisdork]

Recently, thanks to Valiant going nuts on Cmixology, I had a chance to read the 1st issues of '92 X-O and Harby (just not their #0 issues). While they were good, I prefer the new books, as they draw out everything for some much-needed decompression. In terms of X-O, we see why the Vine are evil in the VU, but I had no interest, care, or clue about the spider aliens in VH1. Plus, as noted, Aric appears to be smarter in VU than the way he was depicted all the way in '92. As for Harbinger, the decompression, as well as how they are introduced, helps me grow to like and follow these characters.

[grendeljd]

Recently, thanks to Valiant going nuts on Cmixology, I had a chance to read the 1st issues of '92 X-O and Harby (just not their #0 issues). While they were good, I prefer the new books, as they draw out everything for some much-needed decompression. In terms of X-O, we see why the Vine are evil in the VU, but I had no interest, care, or clue about the spider aliens in VH1. Plus, as noted, Aric appears to be smarter in VU than the way he was depicted all the way in '92. As for Harbinger, the decompression, as well as how they are introduced, helps me grow to like and follow these characters.

+1

I'm a big fan of the original books, having collected them back in the day, but I'm really enjoying the way the new titles are written. The 'decompression' to me is actually a positive means of taking time to flesh out details that shouldn't have been skimmed over in the originals. And whether or not the dialogue has a lower word count is irrelevant to me - there is so much nuance that can be communicated/expressed through the art without bogging it down with redundant filler.

[drmirage]

Lets just say that without the Old Valiant... There wouldn't be A New Valiant.

I love both Harbinger old and New.

The only difference is we have to wait a month for a new issue of Harbinger.

[KXXX]

So I see this thread got some love...

I've read more old Harbinger now, and I'm absolutely stunned this book was any sort of big deal. Perhaps it was just too much a product of its time to be good as a new read now. I just can't help but cringe at some of the writing...

[kevinbastos]

Harbinger then was iconic. It was, unfortunately, filled with many items related to the time - Nothin beats a bud - and those references now are distressingly unfunny.

At the time, it REALLY related to many young readers. And an iconic method of storytelling that didn't age well at all.

Fast forward twenty five years...

Harbinger now has many topical references...

It had to - to relate so well to so many young readers. Youths do talk about topical references. They live 'in the now.' That accurately reflects teens. While the Harbinger story (original) hasn't aged well to me as an adult, my twelve year old loved it. And loves the new one, too.

[CylonSteve]

I agree with just about everything the OP had said! I just read a preview of new Harbinger #8, and it seems Torque has more charcter than in the original. Even Kris is more developed too.
And I agree making Aric not being a caveman is better. But without old valiant there would be no new valiant.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

I love all the old stuff, and yes, the new stuff wouldn't have the same meaning to us without it to reference. However I feel that now having something to compare to, the old VH1 stuff is dated. The new stuff is current, fresh, and the shiny new toy we all get to play with. They each have their charms, but I for one now have a different perspective on everything. I read VH1 when I was around 13 years old, now I'm 32, so I see things differently. I feel that the VEI stuff is much more mature, and if I had a teenager, I don't know that I would want them reading it? But the old stuff is more kid friendly in my opinion.

[jmatt]

...Aric. In the new book, he barely seems to have time to *SQUEE* before he has to start fighting again. One of the things I found so enjoyable about the old XO was his adjustments to the world of the future.

Ditto. I dislike the new decompression of comic books. How about more, ya know, words. Words are how writers build character. These are not comic books as I came to know them, they're movie script storyboards. Somebody did a word count on both versions of X-O in another thread and the new books have half of the words of the old books.

The old Valiant 'house-style' has a lot to be said for it. Because if a writer is forced to provide nine panels per page he has time to fill that up with things like characterization.

[myron]

...Aric. In the new book, he barely seems to have time to *SQUEE* before he has to start fighting again. One of the things I found so enjoyable about the old XO was his adjustments to the world of the future.

Ditto. I dislike the new decompression of comic books. How about more, ya know, words. Words are how writers build character. These are not comic books as I came to know them, they're movie script storyboards. Somebody did a word count on both versions of X-O in another thread and the new books have half of the words of the old books.

The old Valiant 'house-style' has a lot to be said for it. Because if a writer is forced to provide nine panels per page he has time to fill that up with things like characterization.

+1

It's also one reason that I like to read the floppies by arc rather than single issues...

[Xtianhardy]

I prefer new Harby to old, and old X-O to the new. I do feel like the story we're getting in X-O is more interesting and of greater depth, but it lacks a bit of the original's personality and is taking a more measured approach towards storytelling. Harbinger is bloody brilliant though. Easily my favorite monthly comic and has been since it launched.