Harbinger #4 Discussion Thread

erwinrafael · Post by **erwinrafael** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:12 am

Interesting issue. Dysart's dialogue is still good. He could really write a team book.

I'm not sold on the plot though. My main problem really is that I don't see any intelligent (?) attempt on the part of Harada and his people to convince or even manipulate Peter to transfer to their side. Aside from an attempt at empathy with Harada telling Peter that he has gone through the same experience, almost all efforts to get Peter to their side were hostile and had no chance of success. It's like there is already a set plot point for issue #5 (that is, Toyo vs. Peter should happen in this issue) and issue #4 was just written as a bridge to get to that plot point.

Not to say that the issue is bad. I love Faith's appearance. Dysart is correct in that there is such joy in her character.

I'm not sure about Joe's appearance though. Right now, I am a bit ambivalent about it. It would depend on how the story would turn out next issue.

Paladon · Post by **Paladon** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:25 am

Harada knows about the Vine (which we all probably assumed, but was confirmed).

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:06 pm

I picked up on the Vine reference too.

I thought this was another amazing issue. I called it dead on that Harada would try to use Pete to activate Faith...that was why Ingrid asked about his dad last issue and I had no doubt that Harada would risk someone's life just to see if Pete could do it. It also wouldn't surprise me if Faith was only recruited because a) she is perceived as not being valuable to Harada and b) her personality was perfect for convincing Pete to activate her.

We all knew Joe wasn't long for the world, but the phony drug OD was a much better attempt than the original "burglars shot him" version. I guess the vision was fabricated by Harada as well...it wasnt really clear...it would have been cool if Joe really could have reached out to Pete that way, but I am assuming it was Harada.

A interesting exchange with Harada and the Bleeding Monk and Toyo's confession to Pete that he was not born activated. We are just starting to get to know Harada at this point, but this issue helped develop him quite a bit.

Zaphod · Post by **Zaphod** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:40 pm

I loved this issue. I can understand the feeling that it was a "bridge" issue but there was a good bit of meat in there and some nice character developing bits.

I will take the character building bridges over the action bridges every day of the week and twice on Wednesday.

Joe's death was handled much better this time around and I am glad that this time, Pete caught on quicker to the ruse.

Setting up Harada as Earth's savior against the oncoming Vine, I like. The best villains hide themselves as humanitarians and this Harada feels a lot like Pre-Unity Harada. Shooter was really good at keeping him ambiguous, it all changed after he left.

The reveal about how dangerous "activation" can be is a good change and the way they lead us to believe even Harada isn't able to activate "Psiots" is a really great plot twist. In Harada's eyes, Pete is gold. Pete is the most important weapon he has against the oncoming invasion. The way Hidden Moon is so quick to want Peter killed is...suspicious. Vine, maybe?

Harada seems to be one of the few who are trying to be careful with Pete but most of the rest don't see the big picture and are used to people being thankful for their gifts and abilities. They are used to new recruits being "joiners" so it isn't a huge surprise that their reaction to Pete is less than cordial.

I also love how they addressed questions about Harada's appearance versus his age. They had The Bleeding Monk address Harada as "Harbinger". It seems Dysart is listening to us.

I am loving this series far more than I did the original series.

etos45 · Post by **etos45** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:12 pm

It was a good issue overall. I think they may be going a bit far on accentuating Faith's weight, but I do like her character. I like how they are doing the activating and I'm interested to see Pete get it right. I was pretty let down to see Joe go, I was hoping they were going to do a bit more with his character first. I guess at least he lasted longer than last time.

My only real complaint is that it pulled me out of the story when showing those medical droids or whatever they are. It just doesn't feel "real life" then. Other than that, though, it was a great read.

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:45 pm

etos45 wrote:It was a good issue overall. I think they may be going a bit far on accentuating Faith's weight, but I do like her character. I like how they are doing the activating and I'm interested to see Pete get it right. I was pretty let down to see Joe go, I was hoping they were going to do a bit more with his character first. I guess at least he lasted longer than last time.

My only real complaint is that it pulled me out of the story when showing those medical droids or whatever they are. It just doesn't feel "real life" then. Other than that, though, it was a great read.

I like that she is visibly overweight, though it may just be Evan's style that accentuates it. In the original series she never really seemed that overweight, just average (for regular people, not superheroes), yet everyone was always ranking on her weight. It almost didn't make sense.

Zaphod · Post by **Zaphod** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:10 pm

BugsySig wrote:I like that she is visibly overweight, though it may just be Evan's style that accentuates it. In the original series she never really seemed that overweight, just average (for regular people, not superheroes), yet everyone was always ranking on her weight. It almost didn't make sense.

I forgot to mention, I love Faith!

I think accentuating her weight is actually a really great way to get to see the world through her eyes. IMO, it's a bold choice also. I might be in the minority in hoping we get to see some Zephyr cos-play in the next few years.

SJS4 · Post by **SJS4** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:32 pm

Another great issue! I am definitely becoming a fan of Dysart and I will be pretty disappointed when Evans stops drawing Harbinger. Hope they keep him for a long time!

Regarding Faith, my guess is that Pete's "activation" of Faith was successful already (they just didn't realize it at first, a la VH1).

Regarding Faith's weight, my guess is that she will likely slim down to more VH1 levels once she acclimates to her powers and gets her confidence.

MarrowMan · Post by **MarrowMan** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:38 pm

When delving into Faith's head, Pete saw an Image of (what I assume Faith wished she looked like) Am I off on that? What was that about?

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:22 pm

MarrowMan wrote:When delving into Faith's head, Pete saw an Image of (what I assume Faith wished she looked like) Am I off on that? What was that about?

Harada Global Conglomerates: Unlocking the inner you.

pixierosa · Post by **pixierosa** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:10 pm

BugsySig wrote:I picked up on the Vine reference too.

I thought this was another amazing issue. I called it dead on that Harada would try to use Pete to activate Faith...that was why Ingrid asked about his dad last issue and I had no doubt that Harada would risk someone's life just to see if Pete could do it. It also wouldn't surprise me if Faith was only recruited because a) she is perceived as not being valuable to Harada and b) her personality was perfect for convincing Pete to activate her.

We all knew Joe wasn't long for the world, but the phony drug OD was a much better attempt than the original "burglars shot him" version. I guess the vision was fabricated by Harada as well...it wasnt really clear...it would have been cool if Joe really could have reached out to Pete that way, but I am assuming it was Harada.

A interesting exchange with Harada and the Bleeding Monk and Toyo's confession to Pete that he was not born activated. We are just starting to get to know Harada at this point, but this issue helped develop him quite a bit.

I think they handled Joe's death much more believably this time, too. I knew it was coming, but it still sort of broke my heart. I wonder about his "visions" - were they truly made by Harada? In their personnel review of Pete they were concerned about his delusions (of Kris & Joe). If Harada wasn't making them, then who? Or were they some sort of psychic connection, like how in the originals Pete could locate someone's mind? He may have been accidentally honing in on them b/c he was thinking of them. Once Pete left the facility, I can completely believe that Harada manipulated a vision of Joe.

I also like Harada's development in this issue, both the obvious telling (like how he wasn't born activated and can't activate others with his powers) and the subtle (claiming that they may study potentials for a year before offering activation. Apparently Faith was on the accelerated plan, although we can't be sure how long they may have tracked her.) It's also ironic that Harada is on the short-list for the Nobel peace prize, considering his general approach is violence.

I agree that they don't seem to have taken the right tack with Pete - they do seem to set him up for confrontation. Some of that is prob to accelerate the "versus" arc, but some may be due to the larger picture - the Vine invasion that Harada is aware of. He probably feels they have no time to spare.

I love Faith. She was the heart of the original team, and she'll serve the same here. I think she was chosen on purpose. She's an outsider like Pete, never fit in, but she's lightness compared to his darkness. I also approve of her physical depiction. She wasn't that big in the original series, and nowadays, that version of her isnt considered obese.

erwinrafael · Post by **erwinrafael** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:18 pm

Zaphod wrote:I loved this issue. I can understand the feeling that it was a "bridge" issue but there was a good bit of meat in there and some nice character developing bits.

I will take the character building bridges over the action bridges every day of the week and twice on Wednesday.

I like the character development. I would just have wanted to see more effort on the part of Harada to actually get Peter to his side. Harada is supposed to be a calculating guy and he's supposed to have a plan to get Peter on his side. What exactly was that plan? That is what I meant when I said that that plot point in this issue is like bridging the previous issues to the Toyo vs. Peter plot next issue. It's like despite Harada's pronouncements of trying to get Peter on his side, Dysart wrote this part of the plot as if he's just itching to get to the showdown between the two.

On third read, though, maybe Harada is indeed insincere when he said he wanted to get Peter to their side. The Bleeding Monk did say that Harada is lying even to himself. Maybe Harada is actually pushing for a confrontation with Peter despite all his pronouncements on the contrary. If that is the case, then yeah, this is an excellent issue.

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:43 pm

erwinrafael wrote:
Zaphod wrote:I loved this issue. I can understand the feeling that it was a "bridge" issue but there was a good bit of meat in there and some nice character developing bits.

I will take the character building bridges over the action bridges every day of the week and twice on Wednesday.
I like the character development. I would just have wanted to see more effort on the part of Harada to actually get Peter to his side. Harada is supposed to be a calculating guy and he's supposed to have a plan to get Peter on his side. What exactly was that plan? That is what I meant when I said that that plot point in this issue is like bridging the previous issues to the Toyo vs. Peter plot next issue. It's like despite Harada's pronouncements of trying to get Peter on his side, Dysart wrote this part of the plot as if he's just itching to get to the showdown between the two.

On third read, though, maybe Harada is indeed insincere when he said he wanted to get Peter to their side. The Bleeding Monk did say that Harada is lying even to himself. Maybe Harada is actually pushing for a confrontation with Peter despite all his pronouncements on the contrary. If that is the case, then yeah, this is an excellent issue.

Perhaps it is just a case of Harada's ego getting in the way. Like several of the students/teachers note, all their other recruits are happy to be there, often desperate to be special and achieve the inner power they feel they have. These meathods always worked in the past, so Harada continues with them, no matter how much Pete pushes back.

But Pete is different--special--he comes from a different place emotionally and experientially that Harada, despite his attempts to relate his own past to Pete's, just can't understand. That is why Pete continues to push back against Harada, and how he can see through all the BS Harada is pitching him. This disconnect is what will/has become the root of the conflict between the two.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:37 pm

All the complaints I've had about the art on this series were nowhere to be seen in this issue! Not once did I have to step out of the moment of reading the story to try to understand what was going on! Awesome issue!

apainter · Post by **apainter** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:48 pm

pixierosa wrote:
I think they handled Joe's death much more believably this time, too. I knew it was coming, but it still sort of broke my heart. I wonder about his "visions" - were they truly made by Harada? In their personnel review of Pete they were concerned about his delusions (of Kris & Joe). If Harada wasn't making them, then who? Or were they some sort of psychic connection, like how in the originals Pete could locate someone's mind? He may have been accidentally honing in on them b/c he was thinking of them. Once Pete left the facility, I can completely believe that Harada manipulated a vision of Joe.

About those visions, I thought it might be Harada too. He used illusions when he first appeared to Pete, and one of the first things he said was "Many of us can cast mental projections." (Tangent: in ish 1, what was the deal with the dog-pack monster things? Did Harada create them? Was it part of "lesson 1"?)

My second thought about Imaginary Joe is that it was Livewire. She controls tech, so maybe she used some kind of hologram? She seemed kind of anxious to get him out of the building. The whole thing could be a set-up by the students -- not Harada -- to get him gone.

Art

greg · Post by **greg** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:50 pm

Seems like it would be Harada.

Pete wants to leave and doesn't want to activate latent powers. Harada wants him to stay and change his mind about activation.

Pete only wants to leave because he knows that Joe is out there somewhere...
so if they allow Pete to see that Joe's dead, then Pete has nowhere and no one to go to... it would be Harada or no one.

It could also be the psychologist projecting the image of Joe, since it's clear that she's following him... but that would be under Harada's orders.

apainter · Post by **apainter** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:02 pm

And I didn't even think of Darpan. He's a good one for messing with minds. Of course, someone would have to be guiding Darpan on what to do, or else Pete would just be seeing Winnebagos all over the place...

Art

ShadowTuga · Post by **ShadowTuga** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:05 pm

Just finished reading this.
Too choked on greatness to say anything meaningful about the ish.

But, if I may: one of things that attracts me more in this book is how subtle, yet powerful, the emotional moments are. I think that the exchange between Harada and Sting was brilliantly executed, we could see glimpses of Harada's envy/fear of Peter's power potential and we also get to see how Peter is such a rebel, in it's own nature.
He truly is a character that believes in freedom of will, and what he did to Kris must be really eating him. He's a good kid, no doubt. That's why I believed his reaction to Joe's death- which was also magnificently portrayed (Pete's awareness of the other "junkies"' mind states, for example showed he's some innate Detective skills

)

And who doesn't love Faith?

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:40 pm

I agree with the points made here.

Anyone notice a resemblance between Faith and Ingrid?

Hmm...

I've got to assume that when Harada says he has one more hand to play that he's projecting the Joe memory to Pete, how else would he know where to find Joe? But showing Pete that they let him down with the promise to take care of Joe won't exactly make Pete trust Harada...

Great issue.

betterthanezra · Post by **betterthanezra** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:14 pm

Amazing issue, really really good characterization. I agree seems like a bridge issue to set up more. But the meat in the set-up is still enough to keep me turning pages. The art team is striving right now great stuff. Faith is laugh out loud Great. You can tell Joshua is having a blast writing her.

-Brian

missjay · Post by **missjay** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:13 am

Zaphod wrote:I loved this issue. I can understand the feeling that it was a "bridge" issue but there was a good bit of meat in there and some nice character developing bits.
...
The reveal about how dangerous "activation" can be is a good change and the way they lead us to believe even Harada isn't able to activate "Psiots" is a really great plot twist. In Harada's eyes, Pete is gold. Pete is the most important weapon he has against the oncoming invasion. The way Hidden Moon is so quick to want Peter killed is...suspicious. Vine, maybe?
...
Harada seems to be one of the few who are trying to be careful with Pete but most of the rest don't see the big picture and are used to people being thankful for their gifts and abilities. They are used to new recruits being "joiners" so it isn't a huge surprise that their reaction to Pete is less than cordial.
...
I am loving this series far more than I did the original series.

I feel the same way! I recently read the old Harby's and I like seeing Dysart's take with these characters. The last few issues were great, but I was waiting for lines to be drawn in the sand! ooooh, I can't wait to see what happens next!

Newton · Post by **Newton** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:20 am

FAITH!....she'll save everyone of us!

tchalla8 · Post by **tchalla8** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:44 am

It's gonna be a looooong wait till issue #5.

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:15 pm

Ok. so Harby 4 is my favorite and I think the BEST issues that has come out.

The first time I read it I was literally effected. (kind of funny, I was in my classroom reading it during my prep, and someone came in right when I was finished, and it took a moment for me to get my senses. I could not answer the question they asked right away.)

I am on record stating that Harby #1 was a bit off for me. But ever since, it has been great. And #4 is the best yet. One of the many things I love about what Josh is doing is that he can come up with concepts/situations/events that are so jarring BUT are totally written (presented) in a different way that make them seem less jarring when reading/seeing them. AND THEN, that makes them even more jarring because my reaction to them was not what I expected! Like the scene when Toyo shows Pete the attempted "unlocking" of the dude. Just a gruesome, sad, terrible situation. But it comes of so different than what I expected my reaction is different that what I expect it to be. (not sure if I explained it right

)

Also, there were so many little tid bits that Josh put in that it is almost hard to talk about all of them.

Why did Livewire let Pete out? Was she just doing what Toyo told her to? Does she have her own motives? Her answer to Pete's question of why she was letting him out really leaves the door open to many possibilities. Even if it ends up just being part of Toyo's plan, then possibility is there for something else.

Did Toyo know that Pete would realize that all the peeps had been mind wiped? So did he WANT Pete to find out and freak out?
How about this........

What if someone ELSE mind wiped the druggies so Pete WOULD find out that Toyo killed Joe? Maybe the Bleeding Monk? Someone else?

Just that single question would make Harby #4 excellent and that is just one of MANY.

And of course all the Faith parts are excellent. I have had many kids that would happily risk the results of "unlocking". Just superbly written and drawn.

And OF COURSE Faith IS already unlocked. Just like the OG series, when Pete "popped" her and did not know he did. Same thing here.

Bottom line = Harby #4 = best book so far =

=

What a great Wednesday for VEI!

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:27 pm

Elveen wrote:And OF COURSE Faith IS already unlocked. Just like the OG series, when Pete "popped" her and did not know he did. Same thing here.

I read issue #33 of Harbinger tonight and it opens with Harada visiting Faith in 1979 and laying his hand to her head while she's still in the crib. So did Pete actually do it or was she 'prepped' or even popped by Harada as a baby?

One other thing I wanted to add is that perhaps Faith has more potential than she did the first time around. Pete tries to activate her and says "I had to stop. It was going to go bad. I had to..."

Can it be that Faith has more abilities than just flight and that she can be further activated in the future?

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