When Back Issues are Better than New Ones (Valiant mention)

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:36 pm

http://www.comicbookbin.com/Whenbackiss ... es001.html

Andy: I was a huge fan of Valiant when the company started and I know that a lot of collectors despise what Valiant did to the market by flooding it with variant, "Gold," "Platinum," and "Chromium" covers and basically helping the comic book market crash in the mid 1990's but the quality of storytelling in ETERNAL WARRIOR, ARCHER AND ARMSTRONG, SOLAR: MAN OF THE ATOM and RAI were really quite good. Now I am only endorsing the pre-Acclaim takeover of Valiant issues and storylines. The storytelling and overall quality quickly bottomed out after Acclaim took the reigns.

The early issues of ETERNAL WARRIOR in particular are my absolute favorites of the lot. The writers in the first ten issues of the series included Jim Shooter, Kevin VanHook, and Barry Windsor Smith (who also drew issues 6,7 and 8). Gilad Anni-Padda was immortal, could regenerate from injuries, had super strength, and literally thousands of years of combat experience. Being a history buff it was great watching Gilad's adventures both past and present. In particular: Ancient Mesopotamia, Ancient India, and even the pre-French Revolution days of the Three Musketeers, who he was one along with this brother Armstrong.

The best thing about these titles is that there are a glut of them just sitting in DOLLAR boxes in comic shops across the country just waiting to be picked up. I recently completed my Valiant collection for only $.25 an issue! The old adage that "you get what you pay for" is totally NOT the case here. These stories are full of great adventures with an historical bent, and introduced some great supporting characters and villains such as Geoff, the Geomancer, Master Darque and The Immortal Enemy. Definitely worth the pocket change and in many ways much better written, plotted and linked with a tight continuity that made sense (no Final Crisis necessary, thank you) than many titles today. With Valiant Entertainment promising to resurrect the characters with their pre-Acclaim greatness intact, grabbing these back issues from the dollar box now might prove to serve as a great reading base of knowledge preparing their readers for the characters' hopefully soon return.

geocarr · Post by **geocarr** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:53 pm

Well that was a good plug. We and VEI needs to thank Andy!

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Tue May 05, 2009 3:01 pm

I agree with Andy 100%!!!

-slym

turborip · Post by **turborip** » Tue May 05, 2009 5:32 pm

What he says is a big reason why I finally started collecting Valiant after all these years: great stories for relatively cheap prices!

IanAlexavier · Post by **IanAlexavier** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:25 pm

Great blog and post!!

Go VEI!!!

MoonChild · Post by **MoonChild** » Wed May 06, 2009 1:48 am

shweet

superman-prime · Post by **superman-prime** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:18 am

what he said sweeet

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Wed May 06, 2009 5:51 am

It is nice to hear praise after all these years, but still a shame that Valiant are atill talked of in such a negative manner.
Here he talks of quality storytelling off the back off a negative comment on how Valiant were responsible for flooding the market with Gold variants etc.

This common belief is still one that *NOOGIES* me.
Sure they did put out Retailer incentive covers and so on, but the real problem of the time was Marvel and their 150+ books per month, of which 75% were complete and utter horse sh*t and all the other companies that jumped on the bandwagon with simlar publishing schedules.

Valiant may have put a lot of books out, but when the industry took its dive it was not something that can be single handedly blamed on any one particular publisher and if you were to choose one for the sake of an argument it should never be Valiant.

Name me 25 Really good book sby Image from their first two years of Publishing.

I know this argument has been raised before, but i like to rant once in a while.

cheers

myron · Post by **myron** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:13 am

Draco wrote:It is nice to hear praise after all these years, but still a shame that Valiant are atill talked of in such a negative manner.
Here he talks of quality storytelling off the back off a negative comment on how Valiant were responsible for flooding the market with Gold variants etc.

This common belief is still one that *NOOGIES* me.
Sure they did put out Retailer incentive covers and so on, but the real problem of the time was Marvel and their 150+ books per month, of which 75% were complete and utter horse sh*t and all the other companies that jumped on the bandwagon with simlar publishing schedules.

Valiant may have put a lot of books out, but when the industry took its dive it was not something that can be single handedly blamed on any one particular publisher and if you were to choose one for the sake of an argument it should never be Valiant.

Name me 25 Really good book sby Image from their first two years of Publishing.

I know this argument has been raised before, but i like to rant once in a while.

cheers

ian_house · Post by **ian_house** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:34 am

myron wrote:
Draco wrote:It is nice to hear praise after all these years, but still a shame that Valiant are atill talked of in such a negative manner.
Here he talks of quality storytelling off the back off a negative comment on how Valiant were responsible for flooding the market with Gold variants etc.

This common belief is still one that *NOOGIES* me.
Sure they did put out Retailer incentive covers and so on, but the real problem of the time was Marvel and their 150+ books per month, of which 75% were complete and utter horse sh*t and all the other companies that jumped on the bandwagon with simlar publishing schedules.

Valiant may have put a lot of books out, but when the industry took its dive it was not something that can be single handedly blamed on any one particular publisher and if you were to choose one for the sake of an argument it should never be Valiant.

Name me 25 Really good book sby Image from their first two years of Publishing.

I know this argument has been raised before, but i like to rant once in a while.

cheers

AMEN brothers!

robb77 · Post by **robb77** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:03 am

ian_house wrote:
myron wrote:
Draco wrote:It is nice to hear praise after all these years, but still a shame that Valiant are atill talked of in such a negative manner.
Here he talks of quality storytelling off the back off a negative comment on how Valiant were responsible for flooding the market with Gold variants etc.

This common belief is still one that *NOOGIES* me.
Sure they did put out Retailer incentive covers and so on, but the real problem of the time was Marvel and their 150+ books per month, of which 75% were complete and utter horse sh*t and all the other companies that jumped on the bandwagon with simlar publishing schedules.

Valiant may have put a lot of books out, but when the industry took its dive it was not something that can be single handedly blamed on any one particular publisher and if you were to choose one for the sake of an argument it should never be Valiant.

Name me 25 Really good book sby Image from their first two years of Publishing.

I know this argument has been raised before, but i like to rant once in a while.

cheers

AMEN brothers!

MoonChild · Post by **MoonChild** » Wed May 06, 2009 1:54 pm

Valiant Didnt even make money off of their Incentive books according to Jim Shooter so I think thats kinda a miss nomer [or however you say that].

dave · Post by **dave** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:54 pm

Totally, and valiant only did (about) one variant per title, and they were pretty spread out. The mass produced books (turok 1 sldm 1 mrf 25 and maybe a couple others) were not the norm. lookit what marvel did with x-men #1 way before that-the thing that valiant did that fueled the speculator market-was put out great books that got people talking which lead to high demand for back issues which lead to big money books-marvel and dc really didn't have anything of the sort going on-all their high $ books were SA and what not. i totally agree with what draco said-but since it had already been quoted three times i decided not to!

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Wed May 06, 2009 3:43 pm

I never minded the gold covers, platinum covers... I LOVED THEM. Still do.

My one REAL problem is the print run of Turok #1 at what... a million copies ? I mean, where is your back issue market for a book like that. I understand that the book was printed based on orders, but I still would have limited it. Just think of what limiting the book would have done to the actual VALUE of the book during speculator days.

"Hey we want a million copies."

"Sorry, no can do... how about 60,000 copies (+ or - ya know) ?"

People would have been scrambling for the damn thing and today we would not be using them to keep up one end of our couch until we get that couch let fixed, ya know ?

Greed, pure greed with no care for the future. A quick buck like that can be alluring, I just with better heads prevailed.

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Wed May 06, 2009 4:48 pm

Knightt wrote:I never minded the gold covers, platinum covers... I LOVED THEM. Still do.

My one REAL problem is the print run of Turok #1 at what... a million copies ? I mean, where is your back issue market for a book like that. I understand that the book was printed based on orders, but I still would have limited it. Just think of what limiting the book would have done to the actual VALUE of the book during speculator days.

"Hey we want a million copies."

"Sorry, no can do... how about 60,000 copies (+ or - ya know) ?"

People would have been scrambling for the damn thing and today we would not be using them to keep up one end of our couch until we get that couch let fixed, ya know ?

Greed, pure greed with no care for the future. A quick buck like that can be alluring, I just with better heads prevailed.

There is indeed other sides to the argument to when you look at it, as Valiant really had too been caught in the BS and hype when Turok # 1 was due.
It was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
I told the story before about the dealers at the shows telling me they were limiting them to 5 or so per customer for £5.00 each two weeks before they hit.

no one really knew the truth outside of the retail cirlcles due to so much lies and deciept on availability, so the man on the street was constantly having the wool pulled over his eyes.

The companies all knew at some point that it was going to end badly, how could they not, so they are all guilty of pushing it over the edge.
Anyone would have tried to get a last few bucks before the drought, but i dont see where Valiant get the chunk of blame they so regularly do.

Valiant were the least abusive of the big guns when it came to selling crap x50 each month, yet no matter where we see Valiant back issues mentioned the saturation, variant gold incentive books still seems to be the major sore point for people, yet that was nothing to do with the real demise, just a very small ( and for then and now very enjoyable ) part.

Someone mentioned in a thread recently ( last month or two) that had they continued to publish Vh1 alongside Image etc, then they would have been able to claw it back and gain much much more love, but as they ceased publication all together they are an easy target to knock, sometimes having the buck firmly passed in their direction for the almost demise of the comic industry altogether.

I guess only the resurrection of Valiant as a publisher of solid new product and some collected of the best of the old would make it better.

turborip · Post by **turborip** » Wed May 06, 2009 5:04 pm

I think there is the unfortuante blowback to Valiant in that there was a legitimate speculator market for the low-print pre-Unity books wanted by the consumers when they came out and after it was told the stories and art were actually good.

Unfortunately, this crossed over into the hype of speculation that Bloodshot 1 and Turok 1 were somehow the next Harbinger 1 or Magnus 0 and then you had all these speculators grab them up without realizing just what a huge print run they were.

Another unfortunate consequence is that Valiant is no longer around to redeem themselves. Whereas Marvel and DC or even Image could continue to produce quality books and get off the speculator bandwagon later on, Valiant is just remembered for the overpriced speculator boom because their early books and gold books were expensive (even if legitimate, I'll bet only us here probably understand that) and the chromium pieces for Turok, Bloodshot, Magnus 25, and so forth. *Edit* of which I see Draco already more eloquently pointed out!*

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Wed May 06, 2009 5:47 pm

I blame the glut and near demise of the comic book market squarly on Marvel and Image. HOW many Spider-Man titles can you put out a month, HOW many Wolverine books can you put out a month, HOW in the hell can you let Rob Liefeld draw comics... it all just adds up and coupled with the speculator market, Valiant may have tipped the scales. But how could you NOT be drawn to the early books that were SOARING (according to I surmise some kind of accord with Wizard Magazine) and books being flung about in every direction. It was like having a free for all orgy and at the end of it, everybody is spent... and at the end of it, you feel bad, so you blame the guy who had the orgy at HIS house, so lets point the finger at the ones who started the #0 books (really a GREAT story to be honest) and the variants, golds, chromium... but if I remember correctly it was MARVEL with a Silver Surfer book that was the first (please correct me if I am wrong). The incentive books from Valiant were put out there as 'thank you' notes and something cool to give to the fans and retailers who were supporting them. I do not thin that there was ever any evil intent with Valiant putting out these shiny baubles or even later with their shiney covered books. It made for a QUALITY product, the celebration of something NEW and it was very exciting.

Someone had to take the blame, and it will always be the #3 guy. You can't blame it on Shooter getting the boot either as for well over a year, I was still enjoying Valiant with Bob Layton at the helm, still good stories, nice art and it was MY universe because I got in on it from the start. It felt as if Valiant had ALWAYS been there and it felt nice to be a part of that. I am sure that secret meetings were held, even between rivals as to whom the rose was to be pinned on.

Turok #1 was the great misleader to speculators but then again, they too fell to their own greed, so in a way you can't blame a company for giving the public what they want and nobody realized that a very large order would create more copies which would destroy the back issue market, leaving dealers with books that they couldnt get rid of... "Hey man, how about a Turok #1 ???" "Nope, already have 10, just waiting for those babies to go up." (Sticker price: $3.00 a book) Because EVERYBODY had one. Harbinger #1 ? Low print run (NOT due to the thought of the back market but that was what they could afford) and good writing ? A sure bet, but you cannot 'manufacture' what becomes 'hot' in the comics world. Gimmick covers 'seemed' to work, when in fact they fizzled but I have to admit, I loves me some fancy covers. It was like a contest who could out do the other and when I saw a Ninjak gold ? Oh man, you put holofoil on a piece of dog-$hit, I will buy TWO, mark my words. Those Wizard cards (series II) that came with the magazine ? Oh I got them ALL (more than one set), PLUS the encased, numbered cards AND the GOLD encased numbered cards... STILL have them, STILL love 'em. But as I make my trek through what seems like the badlands of comics these days, I am finding that other companies had A LOT to offer... and yes, I am speaking of the Dead Universes. When these no-name companies put out books with the pizazz or darned good writing, they should have had a gold mine, but the speculators didnt catch on... i.e. no shiney covers.

I was speaking with a buddy of mine the other day and he collects 'Femforce' (as do I)... I was totally SHOCKED to hear him say, "Oh, I have never READ any of my books, I just like the pictures." Well number one, I thought PERV but #2, I thought 'comics are to be READ'. And The early times of Valiant (to include some of Layton) is what drew me to the books. The writing, the story... tell a good story and they will come. It is hard to get the right mix, but when you have it... it's magic !!!

We all got caught up in the frenzy of comics for the wrong reasons. I got caught up... buying multiple copies of 'get this' WILDSTAR thinking that it would appreciate in value. Well we know how that one went. But what REALLY kept me going for years was the STORY of the X-Men even during those times... it seemed GREAT back then and I was into every book. SOMETIMES they would have a special cover but really the story is what kept me rolling along, but finally any book that started with an X was just 'one more book to buy' until I just made the decision to stop. But thinking back on those books, one comes to mind... and that is the first appearance of Gambit. What made that book appreciate in value ? THE FIRST FREAKIN' APPEARANCE OF GAMBIT... THAT is the magic of comics and if you study pre-Unity, you will see Shooter using that formula in what makes a comic book become popular... first appearances. Pre-Unity is laced with them. Some characters took root, some did not... dems da breaks.

In the end it all gets to the point of writing the book that will keep you coming back. Since then and not too far in the past, I have given up on ALL X-(fill in) books. The art is beautiful, but I just do not get, nor do I WANT to get the story. It was killing me... so now they are done. Maybe one day they will get back to WRITING, because the only thing making comics appreciate in value these days is NOT cameos or first appearances but 'variant covers'.

And we have come round full circle, havent we ? I feel like it is back in the 90s.

Bummer

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:10 pm

The only Silver Surfer book that I can think of that you might be referring to is Silver Surfer 50, which was the first enhanced cover. Good pic of Thanos.

I love enhanced covers. I fish lots of them out of quarter bins just because they are so neat.

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:24 pm

Chiclo wrote:The only Silver Surfer book that I can think of that you might be referring to is Silver Surfer 50, which was the first enhanced cover. Good pic of Thanos.

I love enhanced covers. I fish lots of them out of quarter bins just because they are so neat.

(Secret: I hoard all the enhanced Silver Surfer covers)

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:42 pm

Knightt wrote:
Chiclo wrote:The only Silver Surfer book that I can think of that you might be referring to is Silver Surfer 50, which was the first enhanced cover. Good pic of Thanos.

I love enhanced covers. I fish lots of them out of quarter bins just because they are so neat.
(Secret: I hoard all the enhanced Silver Surfer covers)

Any enhanced cover of any kind is welcome in my collection for 50p.
Now they cannot do any harm its all good.

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:46 pm

Draco wrote:
Knightt wrote:
Chiclo wrote:The only Silver Surfer book that I can think of that you might be referring to is Silver Surfer 50, which was the first enhanced cover. Good pic of Thanos.

I love enhanced covers. I fish lots of them out of quarter bins just because they are so neat.
(Secret: I hoard all the enhanced Silver Surfer covers)
Any enhanced cover of any kind is welcome in my collection for 50p.
Now they cannot do any harm its all good.

Well said.

Consider it a rescue mission.

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:07 pm

Knightt wrote:(Secret: I hoard all the enhanced Silver Surfer covers)

Dude, you know EVERYONE can read what you write on this forum, right?

Chiclo · Post by **Chiclo** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:08 pm

Dr. Solar wrote:
Knightt wrote:(Secret: I hoard all the enhanced Silver Surfer covers)
Dude, you know EVERYONE can read what you write on this forum, right?

If he posts it in the DU section, a dozen people at most will read it.

Dr. Solar · Post by **Dr. Solar** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:12 pm

can != will.

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:35 pm