Shadowman #43

1st Among Equals · Post by **1st Among Equals** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:44 pm

Okay I just finished reading Shadowman #43 and i think that was the dombest ending ever!!! Anyways there is one thing that is bothering me...if he jumps and ends up going "Splat" on the cement how does that kill Darque? In Rai #0 it states that Shadowman died valiantly killing Master Darque but if from what i heard is correct (since i dont have a copy of my own) Darque is killed by Aric in X-O #64. Also how could Shadowman have killed Darque if he kills himself?? I don't know mabye someone can cler this up.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:55 pm

Let me put it like this

Before Fabian Nicieza came along, VALIANT had already hired Garth Ennis and Ashley Wood to work on the Shadowman series.

The first page of their comic opens with Jack's autopsy.

From what I heard the issues came out as intended for the original VALIANT continuity with some changes to the dialogue to it would fit the new VH 2 continuity, so that Jack went from dying after jumping off the building to being killed by Tommy Lee Bones, who rammed a saxophone up his... rear end.

This is a clear indication that even before Nicieza relaunched the characters as VH 2 Acclaim was no longer interested in doing VALIANT stories of substance and was more interested in getting fanboys who pray at the foot of the credit box.

Darques_Emporium · Post by **Darques_Emporium** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:22 pm

From what Bob told me at the Comic Con, he just had to end it as he felt to close to the whole thing. He was angry with what Acclaim was doing with the company and he had to end Shadowman that way so he had some Finality for himself. I can understand where he is coming from.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:22 pm

I thought it was a GREAT ending. It's kept me on the edge of my seat for 10 years now waiting on the next issue. But of course Jack survives that fall. It's the story about how he survives and what happens after that that I'm dying for Bob Hall to tell.

As for the conflict with XO killing Darque, didn't Rai #0 say that Jack sacrificed himself to rid the world of the "Darque Power" not necessarily Master Darque specifically?

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:40 am

Heath wrote: But of course Jack survives that fall. It's the story about how he survives and what happens after that that I'm dying for Bob Hall to tell.

Now were talkin'......

*SQUEE* · Post by ***SQUEE*** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:45 am

This story needs to be told for sure.

Darques_Emporium · Post by **Darques_Emporium** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:19 pm

I hope that Bob stays on with Valiant. He really was a very nice guy and it was a pleasure to chat with him. New Shadowman from him would be amazing.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:23 pm

Heath wrote:I thought it was a GREAT ending. It's kept me on the edge of my seat for 10 years now waiting on the next issue. But of course Jack survives that fall. It's the story about how he survives and what happens after that that I'm dying for Bob Hall to tell.

As for the conflict with XO killing Darque, didn't Rai #0 say that Jack sacrificed himself to rid the world of the "Darque Power" not necessarily Master Darque specifically?

Yes, but the VALIANT Vision timeline says that in "1999 AD: Earth's heroes gather to mourn the death of Jack Boniface, a.k.a. Shadowman. Shadowman was killed in a confrontation that led to the destruction of Master Darque".

Where does that image of Jack and Darque come from?

I've always thought that it was created for the VALIANT Voice timeline, but I don't know.

Darques_Emporium · Post by **Darques_Emporium** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:28 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Heath wrote:I thought it was a GREAT ending. It's kept me on the edge of my seat for 10 years now waiting on the next issue. But of course Jack survives that fall. It's the story about how he survives and what happens after that that I'm dying for Bob Hall to tell.

As for the conflict with XO killing Darque, didn't Rai #0 say that Jack sacrificed himself to rid the world of the "Darque Power" not necessarily Master Darque specifically?
Yes, but the VALIANT Vision timeline says that in "1999 AD: Earth's heroes gather to mourn the death of Jack Boniface, a.k.a. Shadowman. Shadowman was killed in a confrontation that led to the destruction of Master Darque".

Where does that image of Jack and Darque come from?

I've always thought that it was created for the VALIANT Voice timeline, but I don't know.

I can't remember what issue of Shadowman it was, but it was an earlier issue where Jack goes after that guy that was killing kids and he seeks out the Voodoo guy to tell his future. Remember that the guy told him that the future is never set in stone and it is always in motion. I think this was a way for Valiant to keep you thinking that Jack may actually survive past 1999. I certainly hope this is the case.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:33 pm

Darques_Emporium wrote:I can't remember what issue of Shadowman it was, but it was an earlier issue where Jack goes after that guy that was killing kids and he seeks out the Voodoo guy to tell his future. Remember that the guy told him that the future is never set in stone and it is always in motion. I think this was a way for Valiant to keep you thinking that Jack may actually survive past 1999. I certainly hope this is the case.

Ah, cool.

I don't mind Jack being given false hope by people like that voodoo guy, but I'd much rather the character died in 99 as intended. There's nothing to be gained from letting him survive.

Also, if the voodoo guy was right about the future not being set in stone that would mean that MotherGod was right about time being a mess.

Erica wanted a linear timeline, A leads to be B, leads to C, leads to D... the voodoo guy makes it sound more like time goes from A to 1 to T to 19, which would be the mess that Erica was talking about.

Let me put it another way.

When Geoff told Solar to send Kris' baby away, what do you think is more likely that he said?

Send the baby 2000 years into the future so he'll grow up to become Magnus

Or

Send the baby to alternate future #1/67-DPi*45

?

That's the cool thing about VALIANT, that they had a linear timeline, in the VALIANT Universe the future WAS set in stone.

Remember, VALIANT started with Magnus, that was the "present" day book. Everything else, like Solar, X-O, and Harbinger, came out of that series, which made those books, set in the 1990's, the past to Magnus' present.

Darques_Emporium · Post by **Darques_Emporium** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:43 pm

I see your point and respect what you are saying, but still, it is a fact that the future would not be set in stone as it hasn't happened and is shaped by the decisions that we make. The past is set in stone as it has already happened. I think Jack could have survived an encounter to the finish with Darque and it could have made sense if written properly.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:45 pm

Darques_Emporium wrote:I see your point and respect what you are saying, but still, it is a fact that the future would not be set in stone as it hasn't happened and is shaped by the decisions that we make. The past is set in stone as it has already happened. I think Jack could have survived an encounter to the finish with Darque and it could have made sense if written properly.

Well, in real life I've always been of the notion that the present is always someone else's past just like it's someone else's future.

2007 was the future for our 1997 selfs, while 2008 is the future for our current selfs.

In comic books, particularly VALIANT's, the rule is more aparent as seen with characters like Ivar and Magnus.

betterthanezra · Post by **betterthanezra** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:18 pm

The image your asking about is from issue #12. They just used it because it fit what they were trying to use for that timeline. I'm going off of memory here since I'm working at the station but I'm sure thats Jack jumping at Darque near the end of the Bloodrunner story in #12.

-Brian

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:18 pm

betterthanezra wrote:The image your asking about is from issue #12. They just used it because it fit what they were trying to use for that timeline. I'm going off of memory here since I'm working at the station but I'm sure thats Jack jumping at Darque near the end of the Bloodrunner story in #12.

-Brian

Elveen · Post by **Elveen** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:10 pm

betterthanezra wrote:The image your asking about is from issue #12. They just used it because it fit what they were trying to use for that timeline. I'm going off of memory here since I'm working at the station but I'm sure thats Jack jumping at Darque near the end of the Bloodrunner story in #12.

-Brian

Nice one B.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:14 am

I thought the ending was tremendous, and needs to be considered in relation to Hall's run as a whole. The momentum built and built over the issues he wrote with the apparent splintering of Jack into two quite seperate beings, and the art and stories reflected that, with the pace becoming ever more break-neck it seemed, and the art more stylised. I thought it was a great ending because it wasn't definitive, and I do not normally like ambiguous conclusions. The reader could decide what happened next in a way (until something new with the character were produced). We all like something different, I suppose, which is good.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:22 pm

I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.

yardstick · Post by **yardstick** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:33 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:
What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

Elya

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:34 pm

yardstick wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.
Elya

No, I'm talking about the other one, the one that wasn't from the future

I think she was his agent.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:12 pm

ManofTheAtom wrote:I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.

Seriously?

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:14 pm

Heath wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.
Seriously?

Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:47 am

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Heath wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.
Seriously?
Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.

Why a window washer? It seems a contrived attempt to have him in the 'right place' - waiting 3 years, mind you - when his passions were music, being Shadowman and the ladies? Not really washing windows. Hmmm.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:15 am

ManofTheAtom wrote:
Heath wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.
Seriously?
Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.

No offense MOTA - you've come up with some pretty cool ideas about the relaunch - but that just sounds terrible to me. The idea that the jump was just an illusion really cheapens everything Bob Hall wrote leading up to that moment. There was a distinct reason and purpose for jumping. It was Jack's way to get answers to questions about the very nature of who and what he was. To say it was an illusion and use it as a way to move Jack to New York totally disregards everything that was going on with Jack/Shadowman at that time. It takes what could be one of the most defining moments for the character and marginalizing it to a cheap plot device.

And I just don't see Jack washing anybody's windows. Crashing through them, maybe, but not washing them.

TDarke · Post by **TDarke** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:09 am

My "solution" to how Boniface would survive his jump was pretty simple - if you remember back to when Boniface was jumping though time for Darque in issues 21-23, there is one point where he comes across a future version of himself falling through another time portal as he is leaving. He assumes that sometime in his future he will time travel again. I always thought an easy way to make him survive would be for him to fall through a time portal on the way down off the building.

Of course, the clothes he was portrayed as wearing were different in each instance, but that is an easily retconned issue.

yardstick · Post by **yardstick** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:22 am

Heath wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:
Heath wrote:
ManofTheAtom wrote:I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.
Seriously?
Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.
No offense MOTA - you've come up with some pretty cool ideas about the relaunch - but that just sounds terrible to me. The idea that the jump was just an illusion really cheapens everything Bob Hall wrote leading up to that moment. There was a distinct reason and purpose for jumping. It was Jack's way to get answers to questions about the very nature of who and what he was. To say it was an illusion and use it as a way to move Jack to New York totally disregards everything that was going on with Jack/Shadowman at that time. It takes what could be one of the most defining moments for the character and marginalizing it to a cheap plot device.

And I just don't see Jack washing anybody's windows. Crashing through them, maybe, but not washing them.

maybe washing them is a penance for all the ones he crashed through...?

Or he has developed a window fetish from all the times he crashed through them...