Is VEI dead or dying?

geocarr · Post by **geocarr** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:06 pm

Draco wrote:Just chatting to MOTA on facebook and he said some cool stuff that makes sense if you want to look at it from the VEI side.
You can always rely on Mike.

Can you share any of this with us?

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:13 pm

geocarr wrote:
Draco wrote:Just chatting to MOTA on facebook and he said some cool stuff that makes sense if you want to look at it from the VEI side.
You can always rely on Mike.

Can you share any of this with us?

Why not, just need to go snag it all and see what i can do.
Cliff Van Meter jumps in at the end too.
I think Mike is trying to argue against unjust negativity and i think Cliff says some pretty smart stuff in reply, so smart in fact i wish i had said it, alas

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:59 pm

Untill I hear otherwise...Valiant is a "Dead Universe".

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:09 am

Draco wrote:
geocarr wrote:
Draco wrote:Just chatting to MOTA on facebook and he said some cool stuff that makes sense if you want to look at it from the VEI side.
You can always rely on Mike.

Can you share any of this with us?
Why not, just need to go snag it all and see what i can do.
Cliff Van Meter jumps in at the end too.
I think Mike is trying to argue against unjust negativity and i think Cliff says some pretty smart stuff in reply, so smart in fact i wish i had said it, alas

The question this raises is when is negativity 'just' or even 'unjust'? It is always going to be subjective I guess - and this is not attack at you Draco, no fear on that my friend, it is simply that I think much of the criticism of VEI has been appropriate simply based on the publicly available facts.

For example, I had reservations about VEI a long time ago, about their motivations and focus, and I think the limited publicly available evidence supports those concerns. Now is posting those concerns unjust even though it may be seemingly particularly negative?

The fact is that if there was a real will to produce reguilar comics VEI could have done so by now. They could have done so before Shooter was aboard. They could have done so since. They do not appear to be geared up as a comics publisher. They appear to be set up primarily to exploit their assets (as is their right) through licensing to various media platforms, yet even in that they have fallen short of their probable expectations I guess.

The fact is that VEI need look no further than themselves for any groundswell of negativity. A lot of people showed good faith in them in buying hardcover collections of material that most of them probbaly had already - have VEI repaid that faith through their actions?

etos45 · Post by **etos45** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:31 am

leonmallett wrote:So does anyone who bought those hardcovers feel let down like I do?

Anyone feel otherwise?

Anyone beyond caring?

I can honestly say that I don't feel the least bit let down by the hardcovers. I like the new art (unlike most here) and it was an opportunity to see some form of new stories. VEI really did a great job on them and I hope that, if they ever do get around to publishing, it will be of equal quality (though maybe also on time?

)

As for VEI's publishing (or lack thereof), I agree that it kind of sucks that so much time has passed and the last "official" word from Dino. It was back in, what, 2009? The website never has any new information, and if it wasn't for a poorly thought out lawsuit, we wouldn't have even known they were close to launching with Shooter.

For me, it doesn't matter when they publish, so long as they DO publish and try their best to replicate what made the original Valiant great. During the wait, I think it would be good on their part to utilize that website of theirs to post some kind of information. Maybe do a little something to hold fan's interest like a web comic or a contest. Just something to say they're still in business.

But, this is all stuff that has been said before, and I think it's safe to say it's probably falling on deaf ears.

jbtheo · Post by **jbtheo** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:56 pm

I don't really think about VEI anymore. If they come out with comics in the future, cool, I'll check them out. Otherwise, yeah, I don't give them much of my thought time anymore.

slym2none · Post by **slym2none** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:22 am

A true case of out of sight, out of mind.

-slym

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:37 am

slym2none wrote:A true case of out of sight, out of mind.

-slym

etos45 · Post by **etos45** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:33 pm

jbtheo wrote:I don't really think about VEI anymore. If they come out with comics in the future, cool, I'll check them out. Otherwise, yeah, I don't give them much of my thought time anymore.

That's a fair statement. I tend to forget about them until this topic comes up for it's monthly "nothing" report.

I will definitely check them out if they ever publish, and I really hope they do.

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Thu May 05, 2011 5:15 pm

How long has the link from ValiantEntertainment.com to this board not been working, or is it a brief anomaly I happened to just run into?

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu May 05, 2011 5:22 pm

StarBrand wrote:How long has the link from ValiantEntertainment.com to this board not been working, or is it a brief anamoly I happened to just run into?

A very, very long time.

StarBrand · Post by **StarBrand** » Thu May 05, 2011 5:24 pm

greg wrote:
StarBrand wrote:How long has the link from ValiantEntertainment.com to this board not been working, or is it a brief anamoly I happened to just run into?
A very, very long time.

Oh, I just noticed.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu May 05, 2011 5:49 pm

StarBrand wrote:
greg wrote:
StarBrand wrote:How long has the link from ValiantEntertainment.com to this board not been working, or is it a brief anamoly I happened to just run into?
A very, very long time.
Oh, I just noticed.

Zaphod · Post by **Zaphod** » Sat May 07, 2011 12:11 am

Draco wrote:
geocarr wrote:
Draco wrote:Just chatting to MOTA on facebook and he said some cool stuff that makes sense if you want to look at it from the VEI side.
You can always rely on Mike.

Can you share any of this with us?
Why not, just need to go snag it all and see what i can do.
Cliff Van Meter jumps in at the end too.
I think Mike is trying to argue against unjust negativity and i think Cliff says some pretty smart stuff in reply, so smart in fact i wish i had said it, alas

I'm sorry, you had me until "MOTA is trying to argue against unjust negativity."

then I knew this just had to be a fashionably late April Fools Joke. Well played, sir.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed May 18, 2011 8:00 am

Draco wrote:
geocarr wrote:
Draco wrote:Just chatting to MOTA on facebook and he said some cool stuff that makes sense if you want to look at it from the VEI side.
You can always rely on Mike.

Can you share any of this with us?
Why not, just need to go snag it all and see what i can do.
Cliff Van Meter jumps in at the end too.
I think Mike is trying to argue against unjust negativity and i think Cliff says some pretty smart stuff in reply, so smart in fact i wish i had said it, alas

Did you manage to snag the comments?

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Wed May 18, 2011 12:33 pm

leonmallett wrote:
Draco wrote:
geocarr wrote:
Draco wrote:Just chatting to MOTA on facebook and he said some cool stuff that makes sense if you want to look at it from the VEI side.
You can always rely on Mike.

Can you share any of this with us?
Why not, just need to go snag it all and see what i can do.
Cliff Van Meter jumps in at the end too.
I think Mike is trying to argue against unjust negativity and i think Cliff says some pretty smart stuff in reply, so smart in fact i wish i had said it, alas

Ah *SQUEE*, ill go back see if i can find them for you guys.

Let me eat dinner and if i dont get it done today please remind me, i think you will all enjoy Cliff Van meters comments.

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Wed May 18, 2011 2:20 pm

Just got a message from Mike ( MOTA) with the conversation all ready, so cheers dude.

=================================================

Michael Sacal
If I was petty, my response to all the negativity aimed at VEI coming from VALIANTfans.com would be "I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know." It's a good thing that I am not petty.

Dave Borders I will hurt you! Just because you know something I don't know, does not mean that it is VEI related! lol

Michael Sacal Heh

Jonathan Swinney Michael - I've been gone from the board for over a year. Sounds like it hasn't changed at all?

Michael SacalNot really. Leon contiues his monthly observation over VEI's demise as a publisher and expressing his idea that they will never publish comics.
Just once I'd like to see someone say "they hired Shooter to oversee the publication of comic boo...ks and then he bailed for Dark Horse, that's not their fault!"

Does anyone seriously believe that VEI went after Shooter only to have him die at his desk from whatever ilness he had by preventing him from going to the doctor or whatever the excuse was?

Ian Hine The whole 'they wont publish' and 'I know something you dont club' is a very sad way to go overall.

Ian Hine VEI choose to not tell anyone anything and when you have a fanbase as loyal and craving as Valiantfans, that's a mistake IMO.
I have always been pretty sure they are up to something, but if you show nothing expect people to talk about you doing nothing. Great they had Shooter, shame he bailed etc, but no news is bad news.

Jonathan Swinney Just to clarify - I don't agree with VEI's conduct but, I don't agree with all the negativity and bashing on either side.
Michael Sacal I do wish they would reveal more of what they are doing. It's like sitting on an egg that refuses to hatch.

Michael Sacal viewtopic.php?p=717034#717034 Notice Leon's last post. He chastizes Dino's last comment without realizing that the idea behind the generation of new comics was based on Shooter leading the development. Had Shooter not quit, we would have new comics now.

Ian Hine Im sure he realises dude, he is just stirring the pot to prove a point, like i said no news is bad news, until there is some good news, which brings us back to the point of the Dead or Dying thread right?

Michael Sacal No news doesn't necessarily means bad news, it can mean "stay tuned, be patient". If we ever hear that VEI folded or something, then that would be bad news. I'm sure they didn't spend all the money they have and gone through all the hassles they have (i.e. VIP, Shooter) to just quit.

Jonathan Swinney Old things never die, they are just shelved until they are wanted or needed again. Look at what is going on in Brightest Day from DC. And marvel is bring back crossgen

Michael Sacal
The demand for new VALIANT comics is definitely there, not only from the members of both VFans.com and the Society, but also from former pros who have expressed interest in the revival (some on my own FB page), and from fans across the net ...that don't know or visit either board.

The problem has been in filling that need, first due to VIP and the lawsuits that came about and then because of Shooter leaving.

It would be perfectly understandable if they wanted to cut their loses, but the fact that they continue to persevere in the face of multiple problems says a lot about their intentions.

Ian Hine
Im pretty much on the fence guys, always have been. I can understand secrecy in order to deliver a great package of surprise when ready, but at same time to have interacted for so long with the fan base and at one time as one of those fans,... you ask for trouble when you go silent. I dont think no news i bad news all the time, but in media it is, as the less you have to say the less you exist, the less you exist the less you are worth and the harder it is to climb back up again.

Michael Sacal But imagine how much worse it would have been if they had said something and then couldn't deliver because their head editor quit on them.

Ian Hine Well Mike if what you know is good solid, which is believe it is then roll on VEI Monthly announcement day

Michael Sacal I'm confident that we will see new comics. It's a matter of when, not if.

Ian Hine I think if you read about Shooter it tells a tale of a Madman for sure, but a very talented and unique madman.
I have a funny feeling they are better off without him, as you say plenty of other talent out there that can fullfill the dream for us nutjob fans

Michael Sacal Definitely. I read the first issue of his Magnus and Solar revivals and I was severely disapointed in them.

Ian Hine
I think overall people are wishing the interiors had the same quality as the covers, but until we see the background of each blend together then well just have to sit tight.
I have a feeling that when VEI release new books they will genuinel...y blow people away with great takes on great characters that desperately need to be back in the spotlight once more.
The industry may be small, print runs may be small, but quality sells and at the moment the INdy publishers are getting more attention once again due to MArvel and DC publishing so many pointless books.
Make mine INDY

Michael Sacal DC and Marvel are rotting in Silver Age and Bronze Age Nostalgia, which is what they deserve for hiring old writers with a hard on for the 60s and 70s and a grudge against the 80s and 90s.

Ian Hine Yeah i agree on the DC & Marvel now, too much too much, though as always there are still plenty of gems to be had in the 100+ books they publish each month, so silly #:/

Michael Sacal One of DC's biggest problem is the lack of commitment on the creator's part to the ideas they spew on the pages and the editor's overall incompetence. They lack the spine to tell writers what they can or can't do and the competence to fix the mistakes made by the letterers, inkers, and colorists.

Clifford VanMeter
So I'm ex-Valiant staff and my current day job is as a marketing guy. That said... you tease, you release bits, glimpses, previews, posters... something. Especially when you have such a rabid (I mean that in the best way) pre-existing fan-b...ase. Dead silence just stirs up the rumor-mill and doesn't serve the interests of the publisher, the characters, the fans or the creators. It's no good to pop out and yell, "Surprise!" only to discover that nobody cares anymore -- or that they are pre-disposed to hate whatever you do because they feel ignored.

Michael Sacal I'm sure they wanted to do all of that, but when Shooter left they lost the head editor/visionry who would have been in charge of developing all of that material.

Clifford VanMeter
Also... Marvel and DC's issues are completely different. Largely because they aren't even IN the comic book business anymore. They are in the intellectual property business. Developing properties that Warner and Disney can spin out into med...ia that is actually profitable. The last Batman movie made more money than the entire comics industry that year -- where do you think their focus is going to be? I can tell what it's not on... making monthly periodicals for our little niche.
Ian Hine ‎@Cliff, spot with everything you have said

Michael Sacal At this point, DC and Marvel could quit producing new material and just focus on reprinting old comics. X-Men was a monthly reprint comic before the relaunch in Giant Sized X-Men, so there is predcedent for it.

Why waste resources on paying writers and artists to produce "new" material that is a veiled rehash of what came before when they can just reprint the original material for the next 25 years?

Clifford VanMeter Somehow I doubt that. Shooter was never a marketing guy... he's a creative, and a bit of a control freak from everything I know. Even though I never worked with him directly (I started at Valiant the week after he "left"), I tend to think of him like Steve Jobs... always wanting to be in control of the message AND the medium.
Michael Sacal One problem with creating promotional material without a visionary in charge is that the promotional material can end up contradicting the finished product.

Consider for instance the preview book Acclaim Comics released in Previews that came with two page previews of the VH 2 series. In most cases, the finished comics ended up contradicting the descriptions and artwork found in that preview booklet.

Clifford VanMeter
Marvel and DC have to keep producing new material because their audiences aren't educated well enough in the history of the art form to be accepting of anything else. It's the same reason Turner colorized all those old movies... it didn't m...ake them better, it just made them palatable to the current market. Realize, also, that Marvel and DC -- all publishers for that matter -- don't sell comics to (or I would argue for the fans), their market are the distributor and the store owners. There is a harsh gatekeeper to get past with anything new... that's why falling back on tropes is far easier than being innovative.
Michael Sacal Most new material coming from DC now is a rehash of ideas from the 60s and 70s, so it's not really that new.

Clifford VanMeter
Until Valiant hung itself on the cross of "Name" artists, back when most of the books were knob row, I would argue that we had a very tight continuity and a focused vision. Bob Layton and Kevin VanHook -- and to some degree myself (I was th...e original unofficial continuity guy at Valiant -- Knob Row name: Mr. Wizard -- thank you) and all the writers worked hard to keep a consistent vision, but it was a shared vision... not an autocraticly imposed one.

Michael Sacal That's the jiob I want, heh, continuity guy at VALIANT (that and to write Geomancer).

Clifford VanMeter You can do that by building a team from the ground up, by rewarding creators, making them feel a part of a shared experience. When I was at Valiant there was a team atmosphere and "everybody plays" kind of vibe. We all got the chance to be visionaries in turn. Some of us rose to the occasion, some didn't, but we all got a shot.
Michael Sacal I think that's where VEI is at the moment, building their team.

Clifford VanMeter
I hope so... I think the main complaint out there is, "We don't know." Part of what I do as the marketing guy where I am now is deal with creating fans of the company and handling complaints... even angry ones both publicly and privately. W...hen somebody says we suck on Facebook, I jump right in and engage them, "Why do we suck? What can we do to fix it?" Either you discover that they are reasonable people with reasonable complaints that aren't being taken seriously for some reason, in which case I fix the problem. Or they are *SQUEE* who you'll never be able to please. If I engage public criticism PUBLICLY, everybody else gets to see that as well.

Clifford VanMeter BTW: If they are looking for a visionary to guide the company, they could do a lot worse than my buddy Kevin VanHook. He is a gifted writer, editor and manager and has a great love for this medium.He certainly knows the characters as well as anyone.
Michael Sacal That would be cool. Kevin should definitely be involved in something, maybe a short story like the one they did with Layton and Shooter for the hardcovers, definitely something in editorial.

VEI needs to put the band back together for the penguins.

Clifford VanMeter Kevin was the glue that held things together at Valiant. Bob could be... temperamental... at times. Kevin ws the diplomatic one that just got things done. He'd be a great asset if you could get him off making movies for a while. He has been back to comics now and then in the past couple of years. I really enjoyed the Red Tornado mini he did -- Oracle, too.

Clifford VanMeter We should start a "Draft Kevin" movement.
Michael Sacal Last thing he wrote I read was the Superman/Batman versus Vampires and Werewolves mini. It wasn't bad.

I'd definitely support a movement to get Kevin involved with VEI editorial and creative.

Ian Hine Mike , if it's ok can i post this thread on the vf one you would have discussed this on ?
cheers

Michael Sacal Yeah, sure.

MoonChild · Post by **MoonChild** » Wed May 18, 2011 2:48 pm

Clifford VanMeter
So I'm ex-Valiant staff and my current day job is as a marketing guy. That said... you tease, you release bits, glimpses, previews, posters... something. Especially when you have such a rabid (I mean that in the best way) pre-existing fan-b...ase. Dead silence just stirs up the rumor-mill and doesn't serve the interests of the publisher, the characters, the fans or the creators. It's no good to pop out and yell, "Surprise!" only to discover that nobody cares anymore -- or that they are pre-disposed to hate whatever you do because they feel ignored.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed May 18, 2011 3:02 pm

Thanks Draco; illuminating stuff. Cliff Van Meter's comments especially so.

The 'building the team' thing is interesting and perplexing in equal measures; interesting because it suggests that they (VEI) have proven me wrong with their commitment to see this through. Perplexing because it has taken so long even after the Shooter situation to seemingly happen; if it has happened yet.

Michael/MOTA would like to see recognition of the damage done by the Shooter debacle. The thing is, that does not account for what occurred before or in the time since. Now, that is one perspective, and Michael/MOTA is entitled to his differing one. His is based on more direct information without doubt, yet objectively if VEI wanted to be a publisher of comic books they could have done so by now arguably, even with the Shooter situation having occured. It has been more than 18 months since the legal action was launched hasn't it?

And 2 mentions for lil ol' me in the exchange? Aw shucks.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed May 18, 2011 3:06 pm

And to clarify; until such time VEI publish a physical comic book, I will continue to post at least once a month in this thread.

My position has changed over time in doing so. Initially I felt strongly about VEI's focus based on what information was accessible. Then I had increasing doubts about their commitment to publish. And now? Now I believe there is a far stronger chance that they will publish than I believed perhaps a few weeks ago, yet the issue is that until they have published new comic books they will have done nothing of note for 3 years. Therefore my doubts remain, pehaps not as intensely as before, but time will tell.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Wed May 18, 2011 3:20 pm

I see Mike removed/deleted my facebook posts.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Wed May 18, 2011 3:22 pm

jedimarley wrote:I see Mike removed/deleted my facebook posts.

Do you have any record of them in any way (I don't 'do' Facebook so i am not au fait with how it is set up...

).

May I ask the gist?

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Thu May 19, 2011 1:22 am

jedimarley wrote:I see Mike removed/deleted my facebook posts.

I dont recall you posting on that thread dude, you sure it was that one?

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Thu May 19, 2011 1:29 am

Draco wrote:
jedimarley wrote:I see Mike removed/deleted my facebook posts.
I dont recall you posting on that thread dude, you sure it was that one?

Thanks for posting these mate.

Ian Hine = you/Draco?

etos45 · Post by **etos45** » Thu May 19, 2011 4:11 am

MoonChild wrote:Clifford VanMeter
So I'm ex-Valiant staff and my current day job is as a marketing guy. That said... you tease, you release bits, glimpses, previews, posters... something. Especially when you have such a rabid (I mean that in the best way) pre-existing fan-b...ase. Dead silence just stirs up the rumor-mill and doesn't serve the interests of the publisher, the characters, the fans or the creators. It's no good to pop out and yell, "Surprise!" only to discover that nobody cares anymore -- or that they are pre-disposed to hate whatever you do because they feel ignored.

Totally agree with this quote... it's probably my biggest complaint with VEI, that they don't really give much to be excited about.

Thanks for posting this, Draco! Very interesting read.