Could Phil Seleski, Jack Boniface, and Master Darque Have Been Harbingers?

[ManofTheAtom]

To me the debate is, where do the various iterations of Valiant fall on the spectrum of 'realism'?

Good question. I also think that "how consistently are things explained by in-universe logic?" is a relevant question. For both questions I believe that early VH1 manages best.

Great point. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Agreed, early Vh1 is the benchmark for sure. Then the debate that's been on this board since the beginning, when exactly did Vh1 start to lose its way in terms of realism and consistency? I think I would separate post-Unity, post-CE, and post-BQ and put them all on different places on the spectrum.

The new part of the debate is that we can now evaluate the VEI era in hindsight, and decide where it fits. As well as the 'DMG era' and the new Alien era.

Magic realism must enter the conversation as well.

Huh? Why? All superhero stories are categorized in science fiction. I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with genre, literally no one else has ever been debating what genre Valiant comics are in.

VALIANT is not like DC or Marvel, though, since it sought to be set in a more realistic setting, akin to New Universe, newuniversal, and Supreme Power.

[Ryan]

VALIANT is not like DC or Marvel, though, since it sought to be set in a more realistic setting, akin to New Universe, newuniversal, and Supreme Power.

All of them started out using realistic settings, all of them became more unrealistic as time went on. Except for Newuniversal and Supreme Power, because they were just short series that didn't last longer than a year or two.

All of them are in the sci-fi genre.

[ManofTheAtom]

VALIANT is not like DC or Marvel, though, since it sought to be set in a more realistic setting, akin to New Universe, newuniversal, and Supreme Power.

All of them started out using realistic settings, all of them became more unrealistic as time went on. Except for Newuniversal and Supreme Power, because they were just short series that didn't last longer than a year or two.

All of them are in the sci-fi genre.

Once magic entered VALIANT it required a middle ground between that and realism, hence magic realism.

[Ryan]

Once magic entered VALIANT it required a middle ground between that and realism, hence magic realism.

Ok, but magic realism is a completely separate genre than sci-fi and superheroes.

[ManofTheAtom]

Once magic entered VALIANT it required a middle ground between that and realism, hence magic realism.

Ok, but magic realism is a completely separate genre than sci-fi and superheroes.

Than science fiction, yes. Than superheroes, not necessarily.

Most superhero stories are mixed genre.

[Ryan]

Once magic entered VALIANT it required a middle ground between that and realism, hence magic realism.

Ok, but magic realism is a completely separate genre than sci-fi and superheroes.

Than science fiction, yes. Than superheroes, not necessarily.

Most superhero stories are mixed genre.

That's exactly what I've been saying, genre is an imperfect categorization developed for the convenience of libraries and bookstores. There are tons of stories that straddle multiple 'genres' or defy all genre conventions, or countless other ways that stories defy easy categorization.

Which is why the whole 'genre' debate is meaningless. You're the one who keeps bringing it up. All superhero stories get put in the sci-fi or superhero section. Even if there's an entire Batman story where he's just being a detective and doesn't put his costume on, that story doesn't get put in the mystery or detective section.

Go to any bookstore and look at the Magical Realism section. Let me know when you find a superhero story there.

[ManofTheAtom]

Once magic entered VALIANT it required a middle ground between that and realism, hence magic realism.

Ok, but magic realism is a completely separate genre than sci-fi and superheroes.

Than science fiction, yes. Than superheroes, not necessarily.

Most superhero stories are mixed genre.

That's exactly what I've been saying, genre is an imperfect categorization developed for the convenience of libraries and bookstores. There are tons of stories that straddle multiple 'genres' or defy all genre conventions, or countless other ways that stories defy easy categorization.

Which is why the whole 'genre' debate is meaningless. You're the one who keeps bringing it up. All superhero stories get put in the sci-fi or superhero section. Even if there's an entire Batman story where he's just being a detective and doesn't put his costume on, that story doesn't get put in the mystery or detective section.

Go to any bookstore and look at the Magical Realism section. Let me know when you find a superhero story there.

I bring genre into it because you keep using the word fantasy when discussing science fiction instead of the more appropriate term "fiction".

Fantasy has a very specific connotation you keep ignoring.

[ManofTheAtom]

Go to any bookstore and look at the Magical Realism section. Let me know when you find a superhero story there.

Once my comics are published, I'll look into getting them there...

[Ryan]

I bring genre into it because you keep using the word fantasy when discussing science fiction instead of the more appropriate term "fiction".

Fantasy has a very specific connotation you keep ignoring.

I'm not ignoring anything. I was using fantasy in one of its most commonly used meanings, meaning something imaginative or made up unrealistically, like people flying without mechanical means is a fantasy.

I'm well aware that there is also a genre of fiction called Fantasy that is most distinctive for its setting, usually in a mythical version of the past.

I've never once referred to the situations in the Valiant comics as being from the Fantasy genre. But since you're always confused about it, I've agreed on this board to stop using the term 'fantasy' to describe something imaginative and unrealistic.

I hope the discussion can turn to more interesting and relevant topics now

[Ryan]

Go to any bookstore and look at the Magical Realism section. Let me know when you find a superhero story there.

Once my comics are published, I'll look into getting them there...

Screenshot 2025-01-14 143031.png

Some of that fits Valiant, some of it definitely does not.

"every magical realism story has fantastical elements that do not occur in our world." Where have we heard that before? Are they talking about orcs and hobbits then?

I think the only Magical Realism stories I've read are Haruki Murakami novels and maybe Jorge Luis Borges stories qualify. Definitely enjoyed them and I'm a fan of those authors. There are a lot of interesting possibilities to blend some of those elements into a superhero universe

[ManofTheAtom]

I've agreed on this board to stop using the term 'fantasy' to describe something imaginative and unrealistic.

Good, because "imaginative and unrealistic" is just fiction.

I hope the discussion can turn to more interesting and relevant topics now

Me too.

[ManofTheAtom]

Go to any bookstore and look at the Magical Realism section. Let me know when you find a superhero story there.

Once my comics are published, I'll look into getting them there...

Screenshot 2025-01-14 143031.png


Some of that fits Valiant, some of it definitely does not.

"every magical realism story has fantastical elements that do not occur in our world." Where have we heard that before? Are they talking about orcs and hobbits then?

I think the only Magical Realism stories I've read are Haruki Murakami novels and maybe Jorge Luis Borges stories qualify. Definitely enjoyed them and I'm a fan of those authors. There are a lot of interesting possibilities to blend some of those elements into a superhero universe

"While "fantastical" is closely related to "fantasy," it's not exactly the same; "fantasy" typically refers to a genre of fiction with magical elements and imaginary worlds, while "fantastical" describes something as being strange, whimsical, or out of the ordinary, which could be used to describe elements within a fantasy story, but can also apply to something not necessarily related to a fictional world. "

Google search, "fantastical is not the same as fantasy".

From what I've seen Magical realism is mostly a Latin American thing. It's intersting.

[Ryan]

"While "fantastical" is closely related to "fantasy," it's not exactly the same; "fantasy" typically refers to a genre of fiction with magical elements and imaginary worlds, while "fantastical" describes something as being strange, whimsical, or out of the ordinary, which could be used to describe elements within a fantasy story, but can also apply to something not necessarily related to a fictional world. "

Google search, "fantastical is not the same as fantasy".

From what I've seen Magical realism is mostly a Latin American thing. It's interesting.

Lol, yeah which is why I've been using the terms fantastical and fantastical elements for years on this website. I love how you flip it around and pretend you're educating me about the very term I've been trying to explain to you for 3 pages

[ManofTheAtom]

"While "fantastical" is closely related to "fantasy," it's not exactly the same; "fantasy" typically refers to a genre of fiction with magical elements and imaginary worlds, while "fantastical" describes something as being strange, whimsical, or out of the ordinary, which could be used to describe elements within a fantasy story, but can also apply to something not necessarily related to a fictional world. "

Google search, "fantastical is not the same as fantasy".

From what I've seen Magical realism is mostly a Latin American thing. It's interesting.

Lol, yeah which is why I've been using the terms fantastical and fantastical elements for years on this website. I love how you flip it around and pretend you're educating me about the very term I've been trying to explain to you for 3 pages

You're missing the context.

Just because something is fantastical it does not make it fantasy.

[Ryan]

You're missing the context.

Just because something is fantastical it does not make it fantasy.

That's exactly what I've been telling you for 3 pages.

[ManofTheAtom]

You're missing the context.

Just because something is fantastical it does not make it fantasy.

That's exactly what I've been telling you for 3 pages.

You've been using the term fantasy TO refer to the fantastical elements in the VALIANT Universe...

[Ryan]

You're missing the context.

Just because something is fantastical it does not make it fantasy.

That's exactly what I've been telling you for 3 pages.

You've been using the term fantasy TO refer to the fantastical elements in the VALIANT Universe...

I've used the term 'fantastical elements' multiple times over the last few years because you're confused that the word fantasy has multiple usages. Look at the records.

Lol you intentionally misinterpret people because you can't win a debate on the facts. Then you turn around and pretend like I've been using the wrong term and I need to google it when it was you who were pretending to not know the difference the whole time.

That's just a slimy way to debate people, but you do you bro. I could have gone on a 3 page tirade pretending like I didn't understand the term Magic Realism. "OH, you think Valiant should have magic? You think Valiant should be Magical Fantasy like Harry Potter? You said the word Magic so that must be what you mean!"

But no, I tried to understand what you were saying from your perspective and not intentionally misinterpret the terms you're using because that's the adult and respectful way to have a conversation. You do you though, we know you won't change and you'll just keep lecturing everybody on here like you have for decades