Consistency. Stability.

[Dr. Solar]

I think it is easy to lose sight of just how massive of an undertaking the Valiant Universe is.

It's a huge ship, with tons of moving parts, and an incredibly large number of things to keep track of and to manage.

On top of that, the work is primarily creative in nature. Multiply all the challenges by ten.

I am more astounded by the large success that Valiant has had keeping the ship aright, rather than the few things that seem like missteps to us.

[omega_override]

I completely agree, the lack of a strong foundation and the constant mishandling/misuse of characters has kind of been making me lose faith in nu-Valiant's direction, regardless of how good some of the series are

I am more astounded by the large success that Valiant has had keeping the ship aright, rather than the few things that seem like missteps to us.

I am too, I think we're at a point in time where it's very fortunate for us to have had someone like Valiant come along to try and be a true alternative to Marvel & DC when so indie publishers are

[Elveen]

I think it is easy to lose sight of just how massive of an undertaking the Valiant Universe is.

It's a huge ship, with tons of moving parts, and an incredibly large number of things to keep track of and to manage.

On top of that, the work is primarily creative in nature. Multiply all the challenges by ten.

I am more astounded by the large success that Valiant has had keeping the ship aright, rather than the few things that seem like missteps to us.

[Dr. Solar]

I've been thinking about this a bit more on my drive in to work.

I don't mean to write this to discount anybody's opinion about this, because I know everyone here is a huge fan, and really loves the Valiant characters and stories. Everything we say comes from our desire for Valiant to put out books, movies, merchandise, whatever, that we love.

I look at my job though, my job is to manage and facilitate the process of manifesting a creative vision into a working, physical thing that people can view and interact with. It's not all too dissimilar to what Valiant does.

That kind of work is always trying to fall apart at the seems. It takes a huge amount of coordination between peoples and departments, both internally and externally. It is always on the verge of bursting apart. It's just the fundamental nature of business, and the world that makes work like this incredible difficult.

I don't think this means we should give Valiant a pass, we should expect them to always make things better, to make seemingly disparate story elements work, keep the things that are great, and improve the things that are not quite up to the overall standards.

I guess I look at my work, and it helps me relate a bit to just how challenging it is for Valiant to be Valiant.

[blujay]

I've been thinking about this a bit more on my drive in to work.

I don't mean to write this to discount anybody's opinion about this, because I know everyone here is a huge fan, and really loves the Valiant characters and stories. Everything we say comes from our desire for Valiant to put out books, movies, merchandise, whatever, that we love.

I look at my job though, my job is to manage and facilitate the process of manifesting a creative vision into a working, physical thing that people can view and interact with. It's not all too dissimilar to what Valiant does.

That kind of work is always trying to fall apart at the seems. It takes a huge amount of coordination between peoples and departments, both internally and externally. It is always on the verge of bursting apart. It's just the fundamental nature of business, and the world that makes work like this incredible difficult.

I don't think this means we should give Valiant a pass, we should expect them to always make things better, to make seemingly disparate story elements work, keep the things that are great, and improve the things that are not quite up to the overall standards.

I guess I look at my work, and it helps me relate a bit to just how challenging it is for Valiant to be Valiant.

Well said Mr. Latte.

And based on what Dino just said, I've developed a new theory about the whole plot of this "Book of Death" thing

[Dr. Solar]

Well said Mr. Latte.

It never ends...

[Elveen]

Well said Mr. Latte.

It never ends...

Well at least he did not call you an architect..... Oh wait.

[Watchtower]

So, it's been a while since I've posted on the forums, and I figure this topic would be a good place for a comeback. Mostly because I can agree with the general concern.

I agree with how there's different good but conflicting versions of Eternal Warrior that we're seeing, though I'd argue that Milligan's take is different from Pak's in how they end. Pak had Gilad defiant to the end, while Milligan had his faith in the Geomancer enhanced in a "God works in mysterious ways" sort of thing.

Speaking of Milligan, the big issue is what happened to Shadowman. Sure, Jordan's initial run wasn't that strong (he admitted as such), and Milligan has definitely added some interesting aspects to the world-building, but you can't tell me what he did to Boniface was anything short of character assassination. Bloodshot has been in a similar limbo, going from fighting out with a girl he fake-remembers to helping the Gen Zero kids to leaving the Gen Zero kids behind to jumping with H.A.R.D. Corps to breaking out of H.A.R.D. Corps to jumping in and out and in and out with Unity to good freaking Christ sit this guy down for two secs and establish what he wants to be already.

XO has been fine because it's all been controlled by Venditti. Same with Harbinger under Dysart, and A&A under Van Lente. I would say the same with Q&W under Asmus, but I think the man seriously needs some kind of leash on him. He's a great writer, don't get me wrong, but he's clearly got a huge surrealist flair. Valiant really needs to bite the bullet and have Q&W show up in one of the crossovers besides Delinquents, if only to force-ground Q&W to the rest of the universe.

And don't take this the wrong way, Valiant has been fantastic. Best stuff coming out of the industry right now. It just needs a bit of oversight, especially if they really are planning on jumping in this Cinematic Universe bandwagon.

[jmatt]

That kind of work is always trying to fall apart at the seems. It takes a huge amount of coordination between peoples and departments, both internally and externally. It is always on the verge of bursting apart. It's just the fundamental nature of business, and the world that makes work like this incredible difficult.

I don't disagree, it's got to be an incredible undertaking. But that's where a Character Bible would make things easier, imo.

"Welcome to Valiant, Mr. FamousWriter. Here's the 10-page character worksheet that lays out the powerset, origin, some history and major character associations for Divinity. We encourage you to be as creative as possible, but please do not stray far from the character's already established persona and allegiances."

Anyhoo. Love the company and the product and am very excited about where things are headed.

[erwinrafael]

The whole dismissing criticisms as "LOL you are not seeing the big picture" is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth because it's making critics look stupid for the sake of self defense. So it's GOODBYE VALIANT! I thought you were different.

[geocarr]

The whole dismissing criticisms as "LOL you are not seeing the big picture" is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth because it's making critics look stupid for the sake of self defense.

Can't it be both?

So it's GOODBYE VALIANT! I thought you were different.

That's quite a reaction there fella... Why don't you sleep on it tonight and tell us how you feel tomorrow before making any rash, impulsive, major decisions.

[Elveen]

The whole dismissing criticisms as "LOL you are not seeing the big picture" is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth because it's making critics look stupid for the sake of self defense. So it's GOODBYE VALIANT! I thought you were different.

So the other day I was at Disneyland and had an interaction with an employee there that I disagreed with. I left the conversation not quite feeling like it was the "happiest place on earth".
You know what I did.

Went and had an awesome sandwich In New Orleans and rode my favorite ride (it's the steamboat by the way). One experience that did not go my way did not make me swear off Disney forever. Disney is to great to not go to. I LOVE Disney. Was I stoked with that one dude that one time? No.
But I can promise you that I will go back.

[BugsySig]

The whole dismissing criticisms as "LOL you are not seeing the big picture" is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth because it's making critics look stupid for the sake of self defense. So it's GOODBYE VALIANT! I thought you were different.

So the other day I was at Disneyland and had an interaction with an employee there that I disagreed with. I left the conversation not quite feeling like it was the "happiest place on earth".
You know what I did.

Went and had an awesome sandwich In New Orleans and rode my favorite ride (it's the steamboat by the way). One experience that did not go my way did not make me swear off Disney forever. Disney is to great to not go to. I LOVE Disney. Was I stoked with that one dude that one time? No.
But I can promise you that I will go back.

I agree with Elveen, but I also see where erwinrafael is coming from on the "dismissing criticisms as 'LOL you are not seeing the big picture.'" How can we get the big picture? We're not on the inside. And now we have to wait four months to possibly, maybe, potentially find out the big picture in Book of the Dead?

If I'm reading a book pitched as a huge event/turning-point/set the universe status quo, then I expect to get the big picture while reading that book. We could have very easily gotten more information on the IM, and gotten a more respectable death for Kay, while keeping the new status quo for Bloodshot and EW we saw at the end. All without ruining any "future plot points" for any other stories.

As much as Dino was a part of these boards and is a true fan at heart, he's now the CEO of a multi-million dollar business. He has to say anything and everything to dismiss criticism instead of acknowledging it. I don't blame him at all--and I believe him when he says there is a bigger picture and more great things to come--but laughing at his consumers comments/concerns is not the right way to go.

[lorddunlow]

I agree with Elveen, but I also see where erwinrafael is coming from on the "dismissing criticisms as 'LOL you are not seeing the big picture.'" How can we get the big picture? We're not on the inside. And now we have to wait four months to possibly, maybe, potentially find out the big picture in Book of the Dead?

If I'm reading a book pitched as a huge event/turning-point/set the universe status quo, then I expect to get the big picture while reading that book. We could have very easily gotten more information on the IM, and gotten a more respectable death for Kay, while keeping the new status quo for Bloodshot and EW we saw at the end. All without ruining any "future plot points" for any other stories.

As much as Dino was a part of these boards and is a true fan at heart, he's now the CEO of a multi-million dollar business. He has to say anything and everything to dismiss criticism instead of acknowledging it. I don't blame him at all--and I believe him when he says there is a bigger picture and more great things to come--but laughing at his consumers comments/concerns is not the right way to go.

QFT

You and I are in complete agreement here.

[lorddunlow]

To further elaborate my point: When Bloodshot #0 came out, there were lots of negative comments about the story not making any sense and only raising more questions rather than providing a straightforward origin for Bloodshot. I made it very clear that I thought the mystery was the best thing about Bloodshot and that #0 was one of my favorite issues to that point. It still is in my top 5. Mystery and intrigue are great devices to hook readers. (Chew with all of its hilarity still has several mysteries that were started in the first few issues that still haven't been wrapped up - I love that.)

The issues with The Valiant and the way EW ended in Pak's series don't seem like intrigue. They seem like poor writing/poor editorial decision making, at least right now. We have never been told that Pak's EW stories will ever be finished (I assume after this long, they will not). There are tons of "unfinished" bits in the VEI universe. The more I read, the more it seems (emphasizing this is how it seems to me a reader and fan of the universe) that VEI has a throw a bunch of things at the wall and see what sticks approach to the overall VEI universe. Now, I realize that may not be the case, but if I as a rabid Valiant fan can't understand what is canon and what is not as well as not know which stories will be continuing or which they have abandoned, then how do we expect a casual reader to get it?

If one day VEI answers a bunch of the questions in a wonderful way, then I'll be glad. But when will that happen? I have no assurance that it ever will. I'm starting to not want to be invested in some of these characters because I'm afraid VEI will just pull the rug out from under them (and I'm not referencing Kay's death here - I'm talking about The Bleeding Monk, Kara, Generation Zero, Future EW and granddaughter, EW's children, Shadowman, Alyssa, etc. etc.)

I understand that VEI has limited resources at the time, but I'm hoping that influx of money is used to increase the line (if they insist on filling so many slots with characters I don't like - Q&W). I want the characters I like. I realize they can't design their entire output around my tastes, but I'm pretty close to dropping a bunch of titles because I can't spend money on books I don't like.

[depluto]

I love that Dinesh pokes his head in from time to time to see what we are saying. He's actually got a pretty wicked sense of humor, which he has shown here on the boards. I wouldn't expect him to elaborate on upcoming storylines, though.

But my main relationship with VEI is this: I buy the Valiant books, I read them. I enjoy them. If that were to change, I would consider voting with my wallet, although my loyalty runs pretty deep.

[ErikG]

I'm glad to have discovered this post and thread. The topic is something I've been considering for quite some time. Currently I am in the process of dropping all DC and Marvel titles, something made much easier by the Convergence and Secret Wars events, and prompted by the self-serving hype from Didio and Alonzo. So my decision with regard to future comic-collecting has been to stay with everything VEI puts out. I love Valiant -- always have. I have a complete VH1 collection and an almost complete Acclaim run (only a few hard-to-find issues at the end are missing), and I have every title VEI has produced.

But...

Something is not going right. A number of comments above have clarified my thinking, and I'm pleased to see that I'm not alone in my dissatisfaction...

X-O remains excellent, but it's too sci-tech oriented, too relentlessly Outer Space. Few if any quiet moments, too little attention paid to the "man-out-of-time" concept and to personal relationships, which are essential for characterization.

Harbinger was great, full of potential, and, in some respects, far better than the original. But where is it? Where are the Generation Zero kids? Where are other harbingers waiting to be discovered-- both heroes and villains. Wasted potential, I think. Cutting off at #25 and capping the run with "Omegas" was all very well -- but to get a fan base, the title has to be ongoing. You could argue that "Imperium" (also excellent) is a continuation, but I don't see why we can't have both "Harbinger" and "Imperium" on-goings, occasional crossovers between the two, and the opportunity to look at events from opposing sides.

Eternal Warrior has been clumsily written. Gilad's character is not properly developed. His "nobility" has been watered down; his abilities tossed about and abused. I found the "Eternal Emperor" storyline rather pathetic -- it was a perfect opportunity for opening up the 4001 universe, involving Japan and, possibly, a Rai -- but instead became a Mighty Samson/King Conan throwaway tale set in the future.

Archer and Armstrong began well and remained worthwhile for most of its run, but the depiction of the Sect, the One Percent, and the others became very silly. Faraway was poorly developed. This is the Lost Land where all times meet -- and all we get are parodies. The later "Hotel California" storyline was surreal for the sake of surreal and did nothing to develop the Valiant Universe.

Quantum and Woody should not have been revived. I did enjoy some of the run on its own merits, but it could not match the original, and the characters do not belong in the same Universe as X-O and Harada. Sure, have a bwah-ha-ha title at Valiant -- but not yet. Do so only when the Valiant Universe has been established long enough to merit some parody. The Delinquents was an embarrassment in every respect, and one I doubt I'll ever reread.

Unity has been good but it seems to be a "team" book because one needed a team book -- the characters don't fit together, their motivations are often illogical, and loner characters like Ninjak shouldn't even be on a team.

Bloodshot has been good in part but a little too derivative of a past Wolverine with his "false memory implants" and the Punisher. However, Bloodshot Reborn does seem as if it'll be addressing this, so I'll wait and see.

The worst -- the very worst -- has been Shadowman. It was an abomination. What was Editorial thinking? What was Milligan thinking? Boniface was a character who could have become a somewhat flawed hero like Moon Knight or an occult Daredevil, slipping in and out of the larger Valiant Universe, peripheral perhaps even in Unity... Darque could have become a villainous menace in that same Universe. But no: Jack is now a mean-spirited weak-willed parricide who frees Darque for his own selfish reasons, and Darque is a monstrous creature trapped in Deadside. I feel that VEI has painted itself into a very tight corner here -- as it stands, both characters are currently unusable at a time when Valiant needs a much larger and much wider roster of protagonists and antagonists -- a very very poor business decision, if nothing else. Valiant is NOT 90's Vertigo.

Dino can promise us big things, and I hope that is the case. But I'm starting to wonder...

As I said -- I love Valiant and I want it to go from strength to strength. But the comments above show that I'm not alone in my unease...

Having said all that, I'll still be with Valiant for a long time to come... After all these years, I have no choice!

[BugsySig]

I will add that one of the great things about Dino, Warren, Josh, Fred and VEI is their perseverance and determination. Many, many companies have failed because they couldn't overcome a poorly recieved title, a drop in readership or a major creative change...let alone all of those things...in their first few years.

Through three plus years VEI has never shipped a book late. That's consistency. And while I have had some quabbles with certain aspects of the stories they have told, the vast majority have been excellent. Same goes for the art. That's consistency.

And having those guys mentioned earlier at the helm this whole time has provided stability for the company. We're not always, and practically never, privy to what goes on behind the scenes. Pak, Jordan, Zircher, Duane S...we have no idea who was or was not responsible for any differences between the creative team or why they left the titles they were on. Sometimes things just don't work out and you have to move on.

Now it's time for that stability at the top to provide consistency between and among creators. This isn't year one where characters are still being developed and concepts introduced. We are three years and several hundred published issues into this endeavor. The fact that this is a shared universe has to be in the forefront of everything VEI does now.

I think the VALIANT retreats over the past year have actually helped with this quite a bit, but the influx of new creators means some ideas of previous creators are bound to be dropped. That's fine...it's understandable...but what came before cant be ignored. And give us--the reader, the consumer--some credit and make a creative effort to bridge that gap and resolve continuity wherever possible.

[lorddunlow]

I will add that one of the great things about Dino, Warren, Josh, Fred and VEI is their perseverance and determination. Many, many companies have failed because they couldn't overcome a poorly recieved title, a drop in readership or a major creative change...let alone all of those things...in their first few years.

Through three plus years VEI has never shipped a book late. That's consistency. And while I have had some quabbles with certain aspects of the stories they have told, the vast majority have been excellent. Same goes for the art. That's consistency.

And having those guys mentioned earlier at the helm this whole time has provided stability for the company. We're not always, and practically never, privy to what goes on behind the scenes. Pak, Jordan, Zircher, Duane S...we have no idea who was or was not responsible for any differences between the creative team or why they left the titles they were on. Sometimes things just don't work out and you have to move on.

Now it's time for that stability at the top to provide consistency between and among creators. This isn't year one where characters are still being developed and concepts introduced. We are three years and several hundred published issues into this endeavor. The fact that this is a shared universe has to be in the forefront of everything VEI does now.

I think the VALIANT retreats over the past year have actually helped with this quite a bit, but the influx of new creators means some ideas of previous creators are bound to be dropped. That's fine...it's understandable...but what came before cant be ignored. And give us--the reader, the consumer--some credit and make a creative effort to bridge that gap and resolve continuity wherever possible.

I co-sign this entire statement.

[ErikG]

BugsySig: A very balanced comment and very true. No late books. High quality production. And as you say:

The fact that this is a shared universe has to be in the forefront of everything VEI does now.

I quite agree.

Please?

[geocarr]

BugsySig: A very balanced comment and very true. No late books. High quality production. And as you say:

The fact that this is a shared universe has to be in the forefront of everything VEI does now.

I quite agree.

Please?

+1 and I'd like to take a moment to say I really like your avatar as well.

[Dr. Solar]

So the other day I was at Disneyland and had an interaction with an employee there that I disagreed with. I left the conversation not quite feeling like it was the "happiest place on earth".
You know what I did.

Went and had an awesome sandwich In New Orleans and rode my favorite ride (it's the steamboat by the way). One experience that did not go my way did not make me swear off Disney forever. Disney is to great to not go to. I LOVE Disney. Was I stoked with that one dude that one time? No.
But I can promise you that I will go back.

I don't know dude, I'm not sure I agree with you.

The steamboat isn't even in the top five best rides at Disneyland.

[Elveen]

Only thing in contention with the steamboat is the pirate ship.

[jeremycoe]

Only thing in contention with the steamboat is the pirate ship.

I have a hard time calling either of those "rides".

[geocarr]

What I really want to know is how the hell can you guys afford to buy comics AND go to Disney?