Valiant Variants - Enough!

[paradise]

The only way I can think it would work is if there is some redemption coupon that gets mailed in, or something to that effect - but then that doesn't help retailers at all (although some people might start ordering two of every title - one to cut up, one to keep pristine). Ed, you had a store in the early 90's, right? Did the mail away coupons in the Valiant comics work to increase sales at all?

I do have one quick comment about your post. You said that Valiant's customers are not the fans, but the comic store. I agree with this in a fashion. Thus, the incentive issues are incentives to the retailers to buy more. However, fans are the indirect customer of Valiant. To that end, if there were incentives to the fans (mail away issues, pull box variants, etc) that caused the fans to buy more, this in turn would provide incentive to the comic stores to buy more as well - knowing they could turn it over. So incentives can go two ways - to the direct customer of Valiant (retailers) or indirect customers of Valiant (fans). Either way, they would work to result in more comics being sold.
Chris

Chris, we opened the store in Sept of 94, after the coupons ran their course.

The problem with mailaways these days is the VERY Prohibitive cost of shipping in US. In the early 90s, US postal service was thriving 'cause the government threw all kinds of money their way. These days it's almost out of business and shipping costs have gone through the roof. I don't see it as a viable way of doing things on a big scale.

As far as whose customers the fans are, I believe they retail store customers first, and companies' customers last. Last because most of them buy comics by interest, not company. Most of my customers buy Marvel, DC, an Image book or two, a Dark Horse book or a Dynamite book here and there. Their loyalty is to any particular publisher is very thin.

[caniac]

To me it's not about money it's about investment. I have multiples of the 1:20s and the reason that I have more that 1 of the 1:20s is the fact that I hope it will appreciate. I think your crazy if you buy multiple issues not hoping they will appreciate. IMO, if 1:20s continue for each issue they will probably not appreciate at a rate that I would be comfortable with therefore I'd like to know if it's gonna be endless. I'll still buy the regular issues and enjoy them greatly! But I won't with the variants cause I don't think it would make economical sense to me as I'm not Money Bags McGee. Ultimately if people lose interest in the variants it's not as much as an incentive for the retailers. But what do I know, there are a lot of people on here that know way more about this stuff than I do.

I just want to be able to make an educated decision in regards to my Valiant buying. Ultimately that last sentence is a good problem to have I reckon...

[kevinbastos]

I am in the Valiant collecting business because I loved the characters, and love that these guys have the cojones to do what all of the rest of us only wish we could have done. They are doing it, and making people take notice.

For the last few years, I have bought almost no new comics from the shelves, but have hit hard the quarter bins. If I want to be a completionist for the next few years or months, I am catching up on lost time. Frankly, I am happy that my financial state is better than it was when I graduated college.

To be truthful, the opportunity for variants is much better than it was twenty years ago. Remember killing yourself for ONE gold issue back then? And a signed comic? The VVSS? Forget it. Today, we have that option.

I am not collecting to make money. When I did that for a narrow period of time, I found that I was really hopeful to break even. Making money isn't my goal. I am buying for MY collection.

I, like many, abandoned ship in the nineties. I wish I could have said it was for all of the insane comic production garbage, but it wasn't. If the stories were excellent, I would have kept buying. If Valiant keeps making excellent books, I will keep buying. If they become garbage, I will stop. I may stop buying the variants, but if I am able to stay in my budget, I will keep buying.

[etos45]

The comment that bothers me the most is :

MY copies are starting to look much less special because they're just the "regular" covers, not the rare awesome variant covers. It's taking a LOT of the fun out of the Valiant relaunch for me.

NO, it does not, we are not in COVER Collecting hobby. We are in comic book reading hobby. Everything else is a bonus.

This is what I disagree with. While I read most of my comics, I am in the comic collecting hobby. Not comic reading. I don't buy multiple copies of the same comic because I want to be able to read them all. If you're just in it for reading, then why bother with bags and board? I don't bag and board books that I buy. I do it because I hope they increase in value. I don't like variants because, as a collector, if one of these key issues becomes valuable, it's likely that the people seeking them out will go after the 1:20 and 1:50 before the regular issue. I also don't like them because as someone who likes to own complete sets, I can't afford to buy 1:20s every month.

That being said though (and I've said it many times before), I won't quit reading Valiant because of this. What I have decided is to quit buying variants unless there is something that makes me REALLY want it (IE - I love the Aja covers). I got the QRs and I'm happy with them. I will get the next two Aja's, but not the 1:50s, I also won't buy any of the other variants that come out (including regular price variants), because it's no longer realistic to think I can get them all.

That's just from my perspective.

[Zaphod]

If you're just in it for reading, then why bother with bags and board? I don't bag and board books that I buy.

I still want to protect the books so I can read them for years to come.

[jmatt]

Variant issues = gold and platinum of VH1. Nice to have but not a deal breaker if I don't own them. I didn't get a single gold in the nineties and still loved the line.

But I understand the frustration of the OP. Ya wanna get 'em all but money's tight. Relax, everything's okay.

I still don't own a Unity Red or CEAR or Harby Pink, but I will someday. It just doesn't have to be today.

[paradise]

Variant issues = gold and platinum of VH1. Nice to have but not a deal breaker if I don't own them. I didn't get a single gold in the nineties and still loved the line.

But I understand the frustration of the OP. Ya wanna get 'em all but money's tight. Relax, everything's okay.

I still don't own a Unity Red or CEAR or Harby Pink, but I will someday. It just doesn't have to be today.

^ What he said

[Andy]

I've got variants from Valiant, Acclaim, Dark Horse, and the new Valiant and I'm glad to have them, but I've always figured its easier for a $3 or $4 dollar comic to double in value than one I've paid a premium for. In other words, if I'm hoping for the value to go up, I'm worried about the percentage over purchase price more than the high value. 2cents

[jmatt]

And if I could just add this: At least with variants, you're getting new art. With golds and plats, same cover with a different color logo. I'll take more art anyday.

[etos45]

And if I could just add this: At least with variants, you're getting new art. With golds and plats, same cover with a different color logo. I'll take more art anyday.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the occasional gold (embossed) cover. I miss those.

[jmatt]

And if I could just add this: At least with variants, you're getting new art. With golds and plats, same cover with a different color logo. I'll take more art anyday.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the occasional gold (embossed) cover. I miss those.

Embossing would require a heavier cover stock. But that's a different can of worms.

[GGSAE]

To me it's not about money it's about investment. I have multiples of the 1:20s and the reason that I have more that 1 of the 1:20s is the fact that I hope it will appreciate. I think your crazy if you buy multiple issues not hoping they will appreciate. IMO, if 1:20s continue for each issue they will probably not appreciate at a rate that I would be comfortable with therefore I'd like to know if it's gonna be endless. I'll still buy the regular issues and enjoy them greatly! But I won't with the variants cause I don't think it would make economical sense to me as I'm not Money Bags McGee. Ultimately if people lose interest in the variants it's not as much as an incentive for the retailers. But what do I know, there are a lot of people on here that know way more about this stuff than I do.

I just want to be able to make an educated decision in regards to my Valiant buying. Ultimately that last sentence is a good problem to have I reckon...

Seems like you're speculating on those 1:20 - which is fine, I speculate in different asset classes. But your questions will fall on deaf ears, since it's the speculators that publishers and retailers complain about ruining the market.

[GGSAE]

Ed, I want to ask you if the variant pricing financial model has burned you as a retailer in the past? I've referenced the Harris/Chaos type companies, in essence all they publish are variants, and I see very low print run comics you would think they could sell, but instead just sits in inventory indefinitely.
I think these business model is fine for Valiant, but it's still a slippery edge that if the bid of buyers falls below $15-20 per issue, there could be a problem with retailers losing money, and then in turn spurring the manufacturer.

[FormerReader]

And if I could just add this: At least with variants, you're getting new art. With golds and plats, same cover with a different color logo. I'll take more art anyday.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the occasional gold (embossed) cover. I miss those.

Me too! I thought they looked great and were very original.

[GGSAE]

I love the variants. I hope they continue to make more. In fact, I was bummed there was only 2 covers for X-O #2 .


Half the fun for me is collecting. The other half is the reading. If I only have the reading...them Im having half the fun.


I dont get it really. If you dont like/dont want/cant afford the variants......just dont worry about them then. Enjoy what you have/can get and dont worry about what the other kids have to play with. OR, take your time and collect as you can and dont stress yourself

I saw your inventory listing.

Expect a call from A&E, shortly.

[StarBrand]

And if I could just add this: At least with variants, you're getting new art. With golds and plats, same cover with a different color logo. I'll take more art anyday.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the occasional gold (embossed) cover. I miss those.

Embossing would require a heavier cover stock. But that's a different can of worms.

Yes, a second can of worms exists.

[paradise]

Ed, I want to ask you if the variant pricing financial model has burned you as a retailer in the past? I've referenced the Harris/Chaos type companies, in essence all they publish are variants, and I see very low print run comics you would think they could sell, but instead just sits in inventory indefinitely.
I think these business model is fine for Valiant, but it's still a slippery edge that if the bid of buyers falls below $15-20 per issue, there could be a problem with retailers losing money, and then in turn spurring the manufacturer.

Well, those are different. I never got any of those leather, virgin, naked Chaos type variants. Those companies (Broadsword, among others) publish stuff for a totally different crowd than the one that goes to comic shops. Their customers buy from them directly from the back of the books or online.

Not every company's variants sell. I can't give away Dynamite or IDW variants, same with most indie publishers. WHich makes me really happy to see Valiant variant market doing so strong. The variant market is over the top these days, too many produced, specially by Marvel & DC. But theirs sell, due to a large fan base. Valiant seems to have a similar fanbase of dedicated fans who want everything. That proves why they were the #3 publisher in the 90s, and where they should be going.

[400yrs]

I think these business model is fine for Valiant, but it's still a slippery edge that if the bid of buyers falls below $15-20 per issue, there could be a problem with retailers losing money, and then in turn spurring the manufacturer.

That's probably one of the only risks on the publisher's part for doing the variants. I considered that. However, in all honesty, I think there is likely to be enough demand to buy that one copy on the shelf in a comic shop as there isn't likely to be an over-abundance of them out there. If we do start to see these sitting on shelves for a long time, that's not going to be a good sign (the later numbers, I mean - not #1s that were likely over-ordered).




There are a few comments in this thread about hoping the variants will appreciate. If you like the books and that's a secondary aspect of getting the variants, then great. However, ANY modern comic that appreciates in value is a rarity. I think we all know that, but it deserves repeating every once in a while for those who are just getting back into comics.



And the comment about the regular issues being "less special"....... What is special is the stories on the inside of the covers that we can read after years and years of none. Without the stuff going on inside, who cares what the cover looks like?

[caniac]

I think these business model is fine for Valiant, but it's still a slippery edge that if the bid of buyers falls below $15-20 per issue, there could be a problem with retailers losing money, and then in turn spurring the manufacturer.

That's probably one of the only risks on the publisher's part for doing the variants. I considered that. However, in all honesty, I think there is likely to be enough demand to buy that one copy on the shelf in a comic shop as there isn't likely to be an over-abundance of them out there. If we do start to see these sitting on shelves for a long time, that's not going to be a good sign (the later numbers, I mean - not #1s that were likely over-ordered).




There are a few comments in this thread about hoping the variants will appreciate. If you like the books and that's a secondary aspect of getting the variants, then great. However, ANY modern comic that appreciates in value is a rarity. I think we all know that, but it deserves repeating every once in a while for those who are just getting back into comics.



And the comment about the regular issues being "less special"....... What is special is the stories on the inside of the covers that we can read after years and years of none. Without the stuff going on inside, who cares what the cover looks like?

I think anyone buying more than 1 copy hopes they appreciate...I never expect that they will but the chances that they would could be hindered if they keep continuing with 1:20s IMO.

Also, I'm far from a speculator. I have 2 XO#1 1:20s, 2 XO#2 1:20s, and 4 Harby 1:20s (or maybe that statement does make me one...I don't know ).

I'm not buying these to make money but make my collection more valuable...hell, I've never even sold a comic book before...given some away but sold...no. I don't know if I could ever bring my self to actually sell a comic from my collection so I'm far from a good investor in comics

But like I said earlier...we have new comics and deciding on which ones to buy is a good problem to have

[Heath]

I guess I'll speak up again.

I totally understand and agree with the "if you don't like the variants, don't buy them" philosophy.

I understand the economics from the publisher and retailer points of view. (I also experienced similar economics leading to the market implosion.)

And I'm not threatening to stop buying Valiant. They would have to pull another Acclaim to make that happen (and even then, I'd still stick with them a lot longer than I probably should - just like I did with Acclaim). My original post came at a moment of particular frustration (at #5 they are STILL doing variants?????) and I just needed to vent. I'm not frustrated by the stories or what they are doing with the characters - that part has me excited. They have me hooked when it comes to that. But all the variants are another matter.

Some good points have been raised in all of the posts between my first one and this one. But I'd like to respond to a few of them.

First, it's not about whether I like variants or not. It's the fact that I *do* like some of these particular variants and they are completely unattainable for me. At least for the foreseeable future. As I said, I'm not a die-hard completist (whether Greg likes that word or not). I'm still far from a complete run of VH1 (even ignoring all the golds, CEAR, VVSS, etc) and that doesn't bother me. Shadowman is complete as is a couple others. Others are pretty darn close. And what pre-Unity issues I don't have, I have in TPB form. Later run and some Acclaim stuff I don't have, I don't particularly want it. And, even when it comes to the golds and VVSSs and things like that, I have a few of those things so I have my "representative sample." My collection is maybe 85% or more complete. So I'm satisfied with my VH1 collection.

XO #1 - 4 covers - I have 2
XO #2 - 2 covers - I have 1
Harbinger #1 - 4 covers - I have 2
Total - 10 covers - I have 5

So right off the bat, with 3 comics released, 50% of the available merchandise is out of my reach. And if they continue to do 2 covers for EVERY book, my collection will remain at about that 50% mark. It might be whining, I may need to just get over it, I may be better served just ignoring those 5 covers I'll never have, but that doesn't change the fact that I find this incredibly frustrating.

As far as the value goes, I'd like to point to this post by Greg:

LIMITED premiums, multiple copy variants, rare collectibles (no more signed limited Hartford Comic-con exclusive newsstand version).

How about this... NO variants.

Seriously.

What do variants do? They make the majority of a print run undesirable.
Who wants the regular version when there's a Gold?

Instead of making Valiant comics where the majority of the print run is undesirable... have NO variants.
EVERY copy of important books becomes important.

And that is part of the problem. I don't have the "desirable" variants. I just have the regular and "pullbox" variants. Yes, I'm a reader primarily, not as much concerned with "desirable" variants. But... this is Valiant and here I do care a bit more. And my entire collection of new Valiant books are the "undesirable" covers. The "desirable" variants are out of my reach. Frustrating.

Additionally, if every issue has a rare variant cover, then how special are any of those variants?

That said, this screams of desperate cash grab and to be honest, I'd figure it a better economic model for VEI to keep it to 1st issue variants if they must and go with 2nd or 3rd printings should their innitial run sell-out.

I agree with this. Five issues in and they are still doing variants for EVERY cover? At that point, it appears like a blatant gimmick and a desperate grab for cash on VEI's part. VEI is not Dynamite. VEI's books are good. REALLY good! But utilizing Dynamite or IDW style tactics with the variants puts them in the same category as those publishers. And they shouldn't be there. VEI doesn't put out crap with a bunch of variants to lure speculators. And they shouldn't have that stigma on them - but I fear they will.

I think we all need to remember that the "dream" is a reality. There ARE new Valiant books. This IS the summer of Valiant.

Yes! And I am ecstatic! THRILLED! On the edge of my seat waiting to see what they're going to do next! But all that excitement is dampened by these variant shenanigans. Which is... frustrating.

Variant issues = gold and platinum of VH1.

Nope, not the same thing at all. The VH1 gold books (at least in the beginning) were "thank you" books that Valiant gave directly to fans. They were not tricks to get retailers to increase their orders. Those gold books actually meant something other than cashflow.

What brought down the comic market in the 90's? Speculators and gimmicks. And retailers blamed Valiant even though they had few gimmicks. And what do we have now? Gimmicks from Valiant - this time on every issue - and speculators snapping them up. Retailers spending more money on Valiant in the hopes of making a few extra bucks off of their gimmicks. Now, I LOVE Valiant. Love these characters. Love what VEI has done with them so far. Love the direction the universe is headed. I just don't like where this variant cover nonsense is headed.

[Heath]

Four covers for XO #5. Four.

[vikingspawn]

Four covers for XO #5. Four.

They are getting as bad as "Adventure Time."

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/06/15/ ... -mcandrew/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Heath]

Why not just have a number of variants equal to the issue number? Bump it up to 5 variants for #5. Do 6 variants for #6. And 7 variants for #7... etc.

[vikingspawn]

Why not just have a number of variants equal to the issue number? Bump it up to 5 variants for #5. Do 6 variants for #6. And 7 variants for #7... etc.

Maybe they should change their name to "Variant Comics."

[BruceReville]

Four covers for XO #5. Four.