Shadowman #43

[ManofTheAtom]

I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.

Seriously?

Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.

Why a window washer? It seems a contrived attempt to have him in the 'right place' - waiting 3 years, mind you - when his passions were music, being Shadowman and the ladies? Not really washing windows. Hmmm.

Remember that by that time he was no longer Jack Boniface. Jack "died" when he jumped off the ledge.

Think of it as witness protection.

Jack and what'shername left New Orleans, changed their names, and lived different lives off the grid.

Remember that by issue 43 people thought that Jack was a criminal.

[ManofTheAtom]

I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.

Seriously?

Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.

No offense MOTA - you've come up with some pretty cool ideas about the relaunch - but that just sounds terrible to me. The idea that the jump was just an illusion really cheapens everything Bob Hall wrote leading up to that moment. There was a distinct reason and purpose for jumping. It was Jack's way to get answers to questions about the very nature of who and what he was. To say it was an illusion and use it as a way to move Jack to New York totally disregards everything that was going on with Jack/Shadowman at that time. It takes what could be one of the most defining moments for the character and marginalizing it to a cheap plot device.

And I just don't see Jack washing anybody's windows. Crashing through them, maybe, but not washing them.

I didn't want to repeat what Petrilak did in his version of the 99 event, in which (unless I'm mistaken) Ivar saved Jack.

I wanted the solution to be an organic outgrowth of what had been established in the issue.

Moments before Jack went bananas and left the courtroom the guy who could create illusions touched him. That's where I got the idea that he made Jack invisible and replaced him with an illusion that went nuts.

[ManofTheAtom]

My "solution" to how Boniface would survive his jump was pretty simple - if you remember back to when Boniface was jumping though time for Darque in issues 21-23, there is one point where he comes across a future version of himself falling through another time portal as he is leaving. He assumes that sometime in his future he will time travel again. I always thought an easy way to make him survive would be for him to fall through a time portal on the way down off the building.

Of course, the clothes he was portrayed as wearing were different in each instance, but that is an easily retconned issue.

I believe that's what Petrilak did in his version of the event.

[ManofTheAtom]

I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.

Seriously?

Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.

No offense MOTA - you've come up with some pretty cool ideas about the relaunch - but that just sounds terrible to me. The idea that the jump was just an illusion really cheapens everything Bob Hall wrote leading up to that moment. There was a distinct reason and purpose for jumping. It was Jack's way to get answers to questions about the very nature of who and what he was. To say it was an illusion and use it as a way to move Jack to New York totally disregards everything that was going on with Jack/Shadowman at that time. It takes what could be one of the most defining moments for the character and marginalizing it to a cheap plot device.

And I just don't see Jack washing anybody's windows. Crashing through them, maybe, but not washing them.

maybe washing them is a penance for all the ones he crashed through...?

Or he has developed a window fetish from all the times he crashed through them...

Lol

The reason I made him a window washer is because I was doing a VALIANT-style story that used the "if Torque sneezes, Turok hands him a kleenex" idea.

In this case it was Jack working at a company called VALIANT International or something like that, which in reality was Orb Industries, renamed by its original owner after he captured Aric inside a virtual reality simulation.

The idea with "Jack the window-washer" was to link one part of the story with another.

[leonmallett]

I once wrote a solution to that ending.

Remember how in the story there was this guy who could create illusions?

What I did was say that the Jack who jumped was an illusion while the real Jack escaped with what'shername, his love interest.

They then changed their names and move out of New Orleans to New York, where Jack got a job as a window washer at the renamed Orb Industries.

Seriously?

Yeah.

It was my version of the 99 event, the plot of which involved Jack going on a quest to gather the VALIANT heroes in time for the 99 event, leaving his wife and newborn baby behind aware that he'd never see them again.

I still have copies of some of the chapters I wrote. Unfortunely I lost the Shadowman chapter.

http://xxycor.fortunecity.com/valiantfa ... alpha.html

The grammar sucks, but if you ignore that you might like what's there.

No offense MOTA - you've come up with some pretty cool ideas about the relaunch - but that just sounds terrible to me. The idea that the jump was just an illusion really cheapens everything Bob Hall wrote leading up to that moment. There was a distinct reason and purpose for jumping. It was Jack's way to get answers to questions about the very nature of who and what he was. To say it was an illusion and use it as a way to move Jack to New York totally disregards everything that was going on with Jack/Shadowman at that time. It takes what could be one of the most defining moments for the character and marginalizing it to a cheap plot device.

And I just don't see Jack washing anybody's windows. Crashing through them, maybe, but not washing them.

maybe washing them is a penance for all the ones he crashed through...?

Or he has developed a window fetish from all the times he crashed through them...

Lol

The reason I made him a window washer is because I was doing a VALIANT-style story that used the "if Torque sneezes, Turok hands him a kleenex" idea.

In this case it was Jack working at a company called VALIANT International or something like that, which in reality was Orb Industries, renamed by its original owner after he captured Aric inside a virtual reality simulation.

The idea with "Jack the window-washer" was to link one part of the story with another.

And as I suggested - contrived. As Heath points out cleaning windows is not in keeping with the established Boniface character. Window washing was not one of his passions.

[ManofTheAtom]

And as I suggested - contrived. As Heath points out cleaning windows is not in keeping with the established Boniface character. Window washing was not one of his passions.

But you forget that he was hidding.

It's not like he could get on stage and play a sax when he's supposed to make people believe that he's dead.

Think David Banner in the Hulk TV show.

[leonmallett]

And as I suggested - contrived. As Heath points out cleaning windows is not in keeping with the established Boniface character. Window washing was not one of his passions.

But you forget that he was hidding.

It's not like he could get on stage and play a sax when he's supposed to make people believe that he's dead.

Think David Banner in the Hulk TV show.

Think about it - 3 years in one place? Washing windows? For someone with his power and connection to Darque energy? Managing to saty hidden and oof the radar? Still sounds frankly ridiculous. TV Banner moved around to hide. Whatever. You seem convinced it is a dramatically workable idea. I disagree.

[ManofTheAtom]

And as I suggested - contrived. As Heath points out cleaning windows is not in keeping with the established Boniface character. Window washing was not one of his passions.

But you forget that he was hidding.

It's not like he could get on stage and play a sax when he's supposed to make people believe that he's dead.

Think David Banner in the Hulk TV show.

Think about it - 3 years in one place? Washing windows? For someone with his power and connection to Darque energy? Managing to saty hidden and oof the radar? Still sounds frankly ridiculous. TV Banner moved around to hide. Whatever. You seem convinced it is a dramatically workable idea. I disagree.

Well, I never said that he spent three years as a window washer All I said was that in the chapter I wrote he was one.

I believe I did write it so that window washing was just his current job as of 1999, not the one he'd had since leaving New Orleans.

And no, I don't think it's a dramatic idea, it's just an idea I had when I first started writing VALIANT stories, heh.

It was stories like that one that evolved into the kind Heath said he prefered.

Think of it as a chef who's just starting to learn how to bake.

That Shadowman story was a really crappy attempt at doing a cake.

[Cyberstrike]

I can't remember what issue of Shadowman it was, but it was an earlier issue where Jack goes after that guy that was killing kids and he seeks out the Voodoo guy to tell his future. Remember that the guy told him that the future is never set in stone and it is always in motion. I think this was a way for Valiant to keep you thinking that Jack may actually survive past 1999. I certainly hope this is the case.

Ah, cool.

I don't mind Jack being given false hope by people like that voodoo guy, but I'd much rather the character died in 99 as intended. There's nothing to be gained from letting him survive.

Also, if the voodoo guy was right about the future not being set in stone that would mean that MotherGod was right about time being a mess.

Erica wanted a linear timeline, A leads to be B, leads to C, leads to D... the voodoo guy makes it sound more like time goes from A to 1 to T to 19, which would be the mess that Erica was talking about.

Let me put it another way.

When Geoff told Solar to send Kris' baby away, what do you think is more likely that he said?

Send the baby 2000 years into the future so he'll grow up to become Magnus

Or

Send the baby to alternate future #1/67-DPi*45

?

That's the cool thing about VALIANT, that they had a linear timeline, in the VALIANT Universe the future WAS set in stone.

Remember, VALIANT started with Magnus, that was the "present" day book. Everything else, like Solar, X-O, and Harbinger, came out of that series, which made those books, set in the 1990's, the past to Magnus' present.

I'm sorry but I disagree with MotA but IMHO the VH-1 Valiant Universe was never linear to begin with I mean hell VH-1 is an alternate universe itself!
Solar destroyed the world in Solar #0, then Solar is thrown back into time and prevents himself from destroying the world so events would
continue on in a new timeline so that would make VH-1 an alternate reality.

I don't think you can have a linear timeline in a fictious universe that allows time travel (I mean the backwards and forwards movement through time you could have a linear timeline if characters get to future either by againg, suspended animation, or other one way tickets to the future, but once they arrive in the future they stay in the future). because time travel is the doorway (or maybe the Pandora's box) to alternate timelines, universes, multiverses, paradoxes, and etc.

[ManofTheAtom]

I can't remember what issue of Shadowman it was, but it was an earlier issue where Jack goes after that guy that was killing kids and he seeks out the Voodoo guy to tell his future. Remember that the guy told him that the future is never set in stone and it is always in motion. I think this was a way for Valiant to keep you thinking that Jack may actually survive past 1999. I certainly hope this is the case.

Ah, cool.

I don't mind Jack being given false hope by people like that voodoo guy, but I'd much rather the character died in 99 as intended. There's nothing to be gained from letting him survive.

Also, if the voodoo guy was right about the future not being set in stone that would mean that MotherGod was right about time being a mess.

Erica wanted a linear timeline, A leads to be B, leads to C, leads to D... the voodoo guy makes it sound more like time goes from A to 1 to T to 19, which would be the mess that Erica was talking about.

Let me put it another way.

When Geoff told Solar to send Kris' baby away, what do you think is more likely that he said?

Send the baby 2000 years into the future so he'll grow up to become Magnus

Or

Send the baby to alternate future #1/67-DPi*45

?

That's the cool thing about VALIANT, that they had a linear timeline, in the VALIANT Universe the future WAS set in stone.

Remember, VALIANT started with Magnus, that was the "present" day book. Everything else, like Solar, X-O, and Harbinger, came out of that series, which made those books, set in the 1990's, the past to Magnus' present.

I'm sorry but I disagree with MotA but IMHO the VH-1 Valiant Universe was never linear to begin with I mean hell VH-1 is an alternate universe itself!
Solar destroyed the world in Solar #0, then Solar is thrown back into time and prevents himself from destroying the world so events would
continue on in a new timeline so that would make VH-1 an alternate reality.

I don't think you can have a linear timeline in a fictious universe that allows time travel (I mean the backwards and forwards movement through time you could have a linear timeline if characters get to future either by againg, suspended animation, or other one way tickets to the future, but once they arrive in the future they stay in the future). because time travel is the doorway (or maybe the Pandora's box) to alternate timelines, universes, multiverses, paradoxes, and etc.

Then how do you explain Magnus?

Explain that and you have the answer to the question about linear time or alternate realities.

Did Geoff tell Solar to send the baby to the future, or to an alternate reality?

[leonmallett]

I can't remember what issue of Shadowman it was, but it was an earlier issue where Jack goes after that guy that was killing kids and he seeks out the Voodoo guy to tell his future. Remember that the guy told him that the future is never set in stone and it is always in motion. I think this was a way for Valiant to keep you thinking that Jack may actually survive past 1999. I certainly hope this is the case.

Ah, cool.

I don't mind Jack being given false hope by people like that voodoo guy, but I'd much rather the character died in 99 as intended. There's nothing to be gained from letting him survive.

Also, if the voodoo guy was right about the future not being set in stone that would mean that MotherGod was right about time being a mess.

Erica wanted a linear timeline, A leads to be B, leads to C, leads to D... the voodoo guy makes it sound more like time goes from A to 1 to T to 19, which would be the mess that Erica was talking about.

Let me put it another way.

When Geoff told Solar to send Kris' baby away, what do you think is more likely that he said?

Send the baby 2000 years into the future so he'll grow up to become Magnus

Or

Send the baby to alternate future #1/67-DPi*45

?

That's the cool thing about VALIANT, that they had a linear timeline, in the VALIANT Universe the future WAS set in stone.

Remember, VALIANT started with Magnus, that was the "present" day book. Everything else, like Solar, X-O, and Harbinger, came out of that series, which made those books, set in the 1990's, the past to Magnus' present.

I'm sorry but I disagree with MotA but IMHO the VH-1 Valiant Universe was never linear to begin with I mean hell VH-1 is an alternate universe itself!
Solar destroyed the world in Solar #0, then Solar is thrown back into time and prevents himself from destroying the world so events would
continue on in a new timeline so that would make VH-1 an alternate reality.

I don't think you can have a linear timeline in a fictious universe that allows time travel (I mean the backwards and forwards movement through time you could have a linear timeline if characters get to future either by againg, suspended animation, or other one way tickets to the future, but once they arrive in the future they stay in the future). because time travel is the doorway (or maybe the Pandora's box) to alternate timelines, universes, multiverses, paradoxes, and etc.

Then how do you explain Magnus?

Explain that and you have the answer to the question about linear time or alternate realities.

Did Geoff tell Solar to send the baby to the future, or to an alternate reality?

Simple. In one outcome of timelines fracturing with continuous time travel (and therefore paradox) events occured as depicted. In another they may not have.

[ManofTheAtom]

Simple. In one outcome of timelines fracturing with continuous time travel (and therefore paradox) events occured as depicted. In another they may not have.

Then how do you explain Ivar, the Timewalker?

In his first issue we saw how he set up something in his future that he was unaware of in his present.

In issue 15 we saw him arrive after a man died then at the end of the issue we discovered that he killed him.

In Magnus 33 we saw Ivar arrive in the future after leaving the present in Archer & Armstrogn 12.

How do you explain the Blood of Heroes in Rai, where we saw that Ax had indeed killed Bloodshot as told in Rai 0?

There's too many connections between the present and the future for anyone to say that Magnus takes place in a different reality.

In Unity we saw Magnus, Rai, and Gilad walk into the Lost Land from the future and meeting the present day heroes there.

If alternate realities played a part in this, why would Erica target one Rai, why not all of them across creation like VH 2 Darque did with Jack in U2K?

And that's the rub.

VH 2 accepted alternate realities and that resulted in U2K.

Do we really want VEI to go in the same direction?

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

We already saw what a mistake having alternate VALIANT realities was... why do it again?

In the dim hope that this time they'll do it right?

Why risk it?

Let DC drown itself in its 52 alternate realities, there's no sin in letting VALIANT having just the one and focusing on character over gimmick. Let VEI focus on substance over style.

We don't need a VALIANT multiverse.

A VALIANT multiverse leads to a multiverse creature like the one in U2K.

The multiverse creature leads to anger

Anger leads to suffering.

Listen to Yoda if you won't listen to me.

[leonmallett]

Simple. In one outcome of timelines fracturing with continuous time travel (and therefore paradox) events occured as depicted. In another they may not have.

Then how do you explain Ivar, the Timewalker?

In his first issue we saw how he set up something in his future that he was unaware of in his present.

In issue 15 we saw him arrive after a man died then at the end of the issue we discovered that he killed him.

In Magnus 33 we saw Ivar arrive in the future after leaving the present in Archer & Armstrogn 12.

How do you explain the Blood of Heroes in Rai, where we saw that Ax had indeed killed Bloodshot as told in Rai 0?

There's too many connections between the present and the future for anyone to say that Magnus takes place in a different reality.

In Unity we saw Magnus, Rai, and Gilad walk into the Lost Land from the future and meeting the present day heroes there.

If alternate realities played a part in this, why would Erica target one Rai, why not all of them across creation like VH 2 Darque did with Jack in U2K?

And that's the rub.

VH 2 accepted alternate realities and that resulted in U2K.

Do we really want VEI to go in the same direction?

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

We already saw what a mistake having alternate VALIANT realities was... why do it again?

In the dim hope that this time they'll do it right?

Why risk it?

Let DC drown itself in its 52 alternate realities, there's no sin in letting VALIANT having just the one and focusing on character over gimmick. Let VEI focus on substance over style.

We don't need a VALIANT multiverse.

A VALIANT multiverse leads to a multiverse creature like the one in U2K.

The multiverse creature leads to anger

Anger leads to suffering.

Listen to Yoda if you won't listen to me.

Yes, I'll listen to Yoda in all things time travel. Or maybe not.

How do I explain Timewalker? Bad temporal science, fun Bob Hall yarns with nice Perlin art (not so fussed on the stuff not by either).

Will that do?

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, I'll listen to Yoda in all things time travel. Or maybe not.

How do I explain Timewalker? Bad temporal science, fun Bob Hall yarns with nice Perlin art (not so fussed on the stuff not by either).

Will that do?

No, not really.

You're going by the Marvel reasoning when it comes to time travel.

Time is a highway, the present is a car that's always moving.

There it went

There it went again

Oops, there it went again

We are constantly moving forward in time, from one nanosecond to the other.

We aren't moving through realities, we're not moving through the multiverse, we're moving through linear time from the past to the future in a car called the present.

What people like Ivar and Solar can do is jump back and forth through the highway at will, they're not stuck in the car with everyone else. They can go back to the past or forward to the present.

They don't jump from one highway to another (which doesn't mean that other highways don't exist, it only means that they can't do that).

VALIANT time was linear time, events in the present affected the future.

DC lite and Marvel lite time would say that events that were set up in the present that were paid off in the future happened differently in multiple realities.

VALIANT time says that the pay off you saw is the only one there is.

VH 2 time will tell you that you can see it again and again and again and again differently across its own multiverse... we already saw how crappy the VALIANT multiverse was, why would you want to see it again?

[leonmallett]

Yes, I'll listen to Yoda in all things time travel. Or maybe not.

How do I explain Timewalker? Bad temporal science, fun Bob Hall yarns with nice Perlin art (not so fussed on the stuff not by either).

Will that do?

No, not really.

You're going by the Marvel reasoning when it comes to time travel.

Time is a highway, the present is a car that's always moving.

There it went

There it went again

Oops, there it went again

We are constantly moving forward in time, from one nanosecond to the other.

We aren't moving through realities, we're not moving through the multiverse, we're moving through linear time from the past to the future in a car called the present.

What people like Ivar and Solar can do is jump back and forth through the highway at will, they're not stuck in the car with everyone else. They can go back to the past or forward to the present.

They don't jump from one highway to another (which doesn't mean that other highways don't exist, it only means that they can't do that).

VALIANT time was linear time, events in the present affected the future.

DC lite and Marvel lite time would say that events that were set up in the present that were paid off in the future happened differently in multiple realities.

VALIANT time says that the pay off you saw is the only one there is.

VH 2 time will tell you that you can see it again and again and again and again differently across its own multiverse... we already saw how crappy the VALIANT multiverse was, why would you want to see it again?

VALIANT time travel was fiction. It remains fiction. You harp on about 'hard science' in VALIANT books, yet won't accept the flawed scientific principals underlying VALIANT time travel. Same flaws for any time travel fiction in fact. Right-o.

[ManofTheAtom]

VALIANT time travel was fiction. It remains fiction. You harp on about 'hard science' in VALIANT books, yet won't accept the flawed scientific principals underlying VALIANT time travel. Same flaws for any time travel fiction in fact. Right-o.

Time travel in VALIANT comics being fiction isn't a license to introduce a multiverse monster.

One leap of logic doesn't justify another.

Regardless of time travel in these comics being fictional, that doesn't mean that it didn't follow a set of rules, which included Solar sending Magnus to the future, not to an alternate timeline.

If alternate timelines played a part of this, then there would be no urgency whatsoever in sending Magnus to the future, they could have just assumed that a Solar and a Geoff from another reality did it and let Kris keep her baby.

Speaking of Kris, how do you explain her letter reaching Magnus 2000 years in the future?

Did the letter leap realities?

Of course not.

And speaking of the letter, finding out that he was human made Magnus extremely happy... would you rather there was a reality where he found out that he's a lizard instead?

Where's the gain in opening that door?

We already saw what happend when Nicieza opened the multiverse door, and it wasn't good. It lead to a goat on a first name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes who could ride atop the Silver Surfer's board, as well as a multiverse monster and a bottle of magic ink.

Why rehash all of that?

[yardstick]

Simple. In one outcome of timelines fracturing with continuous time travel (and therefore paradox) events occured as depicted. In another they may not have.

Then how do you explain Ivar, the Timewalker?

In his first issue we saw how he set up something in his future that he was unaware of in his present.

In issue 15 we saw him arrive after a man died then at the end of the issue we discovered that he killed him.

In Magnus 33 we saw Ivar arrive in the future after leaving the present in Archer & Armstrogn 12.

How do you explain the Blood of Heroes in Rai, where we saw that Ax had indeed killed Bloodshot as told in Rai 0?

There's too many connections between the present and the future for anyone to say that Magnus takes place in a different reality.

In Unity we saw Magnus, Rai, and Gilad walk into the Lost Land from the future and meeting the present day heroes there.

If alternate realities played a part in this, why would Erica target one Rai, why not all of them across creation like VH 2 Darque did with Jack in U2K?

And that's the rub.

VH 2 accepted alternate realities and that resulted in U2K.

Do we really want VEI to go in the same direction?

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

We already saw what a mistake having alternate VALIANT realities was... why do it again?

In the dim hope that this time they'll do it right?

Why risk it?

Let DC drown itself in its 52 alternate realities, there's no sin in letting VALIANT having just the one and focusing on character over gimmick. Let VEI focus on substance over style.

We don't need a VALIANT multiverse.

A VALIANT multiverse leads to a multiverse creature like the one in U2K.

The multiverse creature leads to anger

Anger leads to suffering.

Listen to Yoda if you won't listen to me.

Yes, I'll listen to Yoda in all things time travel. Or maybe not.

How do I explain Timewalker? Bad temporal science, fun Bob Hall yarns with nice Perlin art (not so fussed on the stuff not by either).

Will that do?

Small am I? Judge me by my size do you?

[yardstick]

Yes, I'll listen to Yoda in all things time travel. Or maybe not.

How do I explain Timewalker? Bad temporal science, fun Bob Hall yarns with nice Perlin art (not so fussed on the stuff not by either).

Will that do?

No, not really.

You're going by the Marvel reasoning when it comes to time travel.

Time is a highway, the present is a car that's always moving.

There it went

There it went again

Oops, there it went again

We are constantly moving forward in time, from one nanosecond to the other.

We aren't moving through realities, we're not moving through the multiverse, we're moving through linear time from the past to the future in a car called the present.

What people like Ivar and Solar can do is jump back and forth through the highway at will, they're not stuck in the car with everyone else. They can go back to the past or forward to the present.

They don't jump from one highway to another (which doesn't mean that other highways don't exist, it only means that they can't do that).

VALIANT time was linear time, events in the present affected the future.

DC lite and Marvel lite time would say that events that were set up in the present that were paid off in the future happened differently in multiple realities.

VALIANT time says that the pay off you saw is the only one there is.

VH 2 time will tell you that you can see it again and again and again and again differently across its own multiverse... we already saw how crappy the VALIANT multiverse was, why would you want to see it again?

Too old... yes...too old to train...

[yardstick]

VALIANT time travel was fiction. It remains fiction. You harp on about 'hard science' in VALIANT books, yet won't accept the flawed scientific principals underlying VALIANT time travel. Same flaws for any time travel fiction in fact. Right-o.

Time travel in VALIANT comics being fiction isn't a license to introduce a multiverse monster.

One leap of logic doesn't justify another.

Regardless of time travel in these comics being fictional, that doesn't mean that it didn't follow a set of rules, which included Solar sending Magnus to the future, not to an alternate timeline.

If alternate timelines played a part of this, then there would be no urgency whatsoever in sending Magnus to the future, they could have just assumed that a Solar and a Geoff from another reality did it and let Kris keep her baby.

Speaking of Kris, how do you explain her letter reaching Magnus 2000 years in the future?

Did the letter leap realities?

Of course not.

And speaking of the letter, finding out that he was human made Magnus extremely happy... would you rather there was a reality where he found out that he's a lizard instead?

Where's the gain in opening that door?

We already saw what happend when Nicieza opened the multiverse door, and it wasn't good. It lead to a goat on a first name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes who could ride atop the Silver Surfer's board, as well as a multiverse monster and a bottle of magic ink.

Why rehash all of that?

Use the Force, Luke!

[Heath]

TIME IS NOT ABSOLUTE

[yardstick]

TIME IS NOT ABSOLUTE

Not in the Lost land it isnt. How else would to explain so many doorways from different time periods all going there?

[magnusr]

TIME IS NOT ABSOLUTE

Yup. Unity was a good example of changed reality. Future Gilad's time-line was changed during Unity, and even himself was changed.

Ivar stated that whatever he did in the future or past probably was the way things were meant to happen anyway, but still he could change things. Fetching future Pete is a big example of that. I have the feeling that the way time was intended at Valiant was somewhere inbetween. Not absolute, but not a multiverse either. Just a few timelines that can change, but most often doesn't.

/Magnus

[Chiclo]

Yes, I'll listen to Yoda in all things time travel. Or maybe not.

How do I explain Timewalker? Bad temporal science, fun Bob Hall yarns with nice Perlin art (not so fussed on the stuff not by either).

Will that do?

No, not really.

You're going by the Marvel reasoning when it comes to time travel.

Time is a highway, the present is a car that's always moving.

There it went

There it went again

Oops, there it went again

We are constantly moving forward in time, from one nanosecond to the other.

We aren't moving through realities, we're not moving through the multiverse, we're moving through linear time from the past to the future in a car called the present.

What people like Ivar and Solar can do is jump back and forth through the highway at will, they're not stuck in the car with everyone else. They can go back to the past or forward to the present.

They don't jump from one highway to another (which doesn't mean that other highways don't exist, it only means that they can't do that).

VALIANT time was linear time, events in the present affected the future.

DC lite and Marvel lite time would say that events that were set up in the present that were paid off in the future happened differently in multiple realities.

VALIANT time says that the pay off you saw is the only one there is.

VH 2 time will tell you that you can see it again and again and again and again differently across its own multiverse... we already saw how crappy the VALIANT multiverse was, why would you want to see it again?

One thing about continuity - when you introduce time travel, it becomes much more malleable.

[ManofTheAtom]

One thing about continuity - when you introduce time travel, it becomes much more malleable.

Actually once you introduce time travel it becomes more important that events don't contradict themselves, so that when the time traveler, like Ivar, goes to a place, like the space station where Bloodshot was killed, he finds that event, not something else.

[Second_Death]

One thing about continuity - when you introduce time travel, it becomes much more malleable.

Which is part of the reason I never liked the introduction of Ivar to Valiant. Bringing in a never before mentioned immortal brother was bad enough but to have him jumping thru time was even worse. I still believe this was the first major mistake after Jim's dismissal.