New to the "comics" neighborhood

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I think it's nice that Jim Shooter is finally posting.

Oh no... someone lock up ZWH...

~The Unblessed Soul

See? I TOLD you someone has a crush on me.....

[DawgPhan]

So now we ask...well I ask....and at least to me you dont seem like the average valiant fan, much less the average comic book fan...what books do you read and how did you get into them. You just appear to be an anomoly, which is part of the reason we took such an interest. Anyway welcome...I will try and quit "stalking" you now...

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Either this is very elaborate hoax or it is real.

Estella F. Saldivar

http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/romance ... rt/Me.html

She is a social worker or atleast has a degree in social work. A masters, I think.

oh, Looks like you've been doing your homework

Dude...(don't worry, you know us Californian's and our overuse of the word 'dude'...it's not literal)...dude...not only does it rock that you're a Latina...but that you look like every wonderful Latina Mama I have ever known. Call me a racist if you will, but, in my experience, I have never met a more wonderful group of people ON EARTH than the collective sweetfest that is Hispanic Mothers. Your picture fills my heart with thoughts of gigantic hugs, doting care, and NEVER ENDING FRESH FOOD!

I hope you're a mom. And the kind that forces your kids and their friends (that would be me. ) to eat unending sugar tortillas straight from the pan.

Wow. I love Hispanic moms.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Nah she has used the same aol email account for nearly 5 years...

Only information a stalker would know, stalker.

~The Unblessed Soul

while that may be true..

I think that everyone should go and stick their email address in google and see what pops up. Dino's gmail account is clean (I already checked), but the rest of you guys might be surprised.

Not a damn thing comes up. Yay me.

[Unblessed]

ZWH, those posts could have been rolled up into one post, but NOOOOO. SOMEONE had to post fiftybajillion replies.

Kudos.

~The Unblessed Soul

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

ZWH, those posts could have been rolled up into one post, but NOOOOO. SOMEONE had to post fiftybajillion replies.

Kudos.

~The Unblessed Soul

You want one long post?

Here.

viewtopic.php?t=4150&start=75

So there.

[Unblessed]

Son Of A!

~The Unblessed Soul

[400yrs]

ZWH, those posts could have been rolled up into one post, but NOOOOO. SOMEONE had to post fiftybajillion replies.

Kudos.

~The Unblessed Soul

You want one long post?

Here.

viewtopic.php?t=4150&start=75

So there.

The scary thing is that I actually read all that.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

ZWH, those posts could have been rolled up into one post, but NOOOOO. SOMEONE had to post fiftybajillion replies.

Kudos.

~The Unblessed Soul

You want one long post?

Here.

viewtopic.php?t=4150&start=75

So there.

The scary thing is that I actually read all that.

As well you should. It's gold.

[X-O HoboJoe]

ZWH, those posts could have been rolled up into one post, but NOOOOO. SOMEONE had to post fiftybajillion replies.

Kudos.

~The Unblessed Soul

You want one long post?

Here.

viewtopic.php?t=4150&start=75

So there.

The scary thing is that I actually read all that.

Even scarier that he wrote all of it . . . while holding his breath!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

ZWH, those posts could have been rolled up into one post, but NOOOOO. SOMEONE had to post fiftybajillion replies.

Kudos.

~The Unblessed Soul

You want one long post?

Here.

viewtopic.php?t=4150&start=75

So there.

The scary thing is that I actually read all that.

Even scarier that he wrote all of it . . . while holding his breath!

Upside down, under water, while singing the Star Spangled Banner...backwards.

[400yrs]

ZWH, those posts could have been rolled up into one post, but NOOOOO. SOMEONE had to post fiftybajillion replies.

Kudos.

~The Unblessed Soul

You want one long post?

Here.

viewtopic.php?t=4150&start=75

So there.

The scary thing is that I actually read all that.

Even scarier that he wrote all of it . . . while holding his breath!

Upside down, under water, while singing the Star Spangled Banner...backwards.

And weaving a basket!

[myron]

hey...I had that course in college!

[depluto]

I liked the part where ZWH said:

I think it's time for another 'Things To Keep In Mind' post by your ol' pal, ZWH.

Things to keep in mind....

1. Since the beginning of the Marvel Age (1961, for those not in the know), comic book COLLECTING has been cyclical in terms of the market for them. The only comic books that have never, ever OFFICIALLY 'gone down in price' according to any market indicators is Golden Age Superhero. Even the last 'hottest new publisher', Marvel, saw a mini-crash in key Silver in the mid 1980's. You were lucky to get $500 cash for a NM Spidey #1 in 1985.

2. Silver Age Marvel, while not having an official 'market' in the 60's, nevertheless commanded a premium when key issues (read: Fantasy 15, FF #1, TOS #39, etc) were 'found.' This market continued to grow, in part because Marvel did so well for so long, into the 70's and 80's. What was a $10 book in 1970 (Spiderman #1) was a $50 book in 1976, a $100 book in 1979, and a $300 by 1982. However...Marvel's continued key to back issue success has been continuity: the characters have continually been in print for well over 40 years for every single major Marvel character, or variation thereof (notably excluding the Hulk, who disappeared from the stands from early '63 til his reappearance in Avengers #1 in mid '63, but continually since then.)

3. Valiant is now a decade gone. Pre-Unity, 'the good stuff' is now 13 years gone. Age does great things for collectibles; it brings back memories of bygone times, memories that have nearly always been colored to forget the bad and cherish the good. It's no longer NEW and UNTESTED material....like fine wine, it has aged, albeit a bit bumpily, into something that most collectors can point to with pride and nostalgia, and especially a 'hey, remember when....'. This is the polar opposite concept that applied to these books in 1993.

3.5. When key issues are 'new', there's always the chance, however slim, of finding those keys in local comic shops, on newstands, books stores, etc. Even if they are 'market priced', the fact of the matter is, what's new is what people will have, and have for sale. Without needing to say so, this obviously isn't the case for 'old' books. Without a VERY compelling and consistent market, few retailers of any kind are going to keep an active backstock of ANYTHING, much less a company which caused so many people so many problems...self inflicted or not...by the late 90's.

How many shops do YOU know, for example, that even carry the HOT 70's and 80's back issues? I live in the second largest metropolitan area in the United States of America, and there are NONE, high priced or not. Have any of YOU seen a Turtles #1 for SALE, regardless of price, in a store? How about Cerebus #1? Miracleman? Spidey? ANYTHING?

MileHighComics, probably the single most well stocked dealer in the United States, is the best example of this: they almost NEVER have key issues of Valiant books, and have NEVER had a complete pre-unity 'set' for sale since bringing up their website in 1997.

Therefore....in the 'boom' years of 1992-1993, everyone and their mother had copies of these books, even if priced at 'full guide' or more. The books had been fully distributed, and very, very few people had 'hoards' of these books.

However, with the passing of time, and the fading popularity of these books, many of them have disappeared into 'hoards', most dealers having sold them or otherwise gotten rid of them, if only for needing the space for things that WOULD sell on a consistent basis. The best example I've got is me...I've been looking for these books since almost Day 1, and while I did find all the books, and many, many duplicates, I have never found a 'hoard' of these books, and have never (before eBay) been able to acquire these books in higher numbers than, say, 5 copies each.

Hoards, now, are the exception rather than the rule. How many other people besides Greg and Dino that you know that have 20+ copies of Unity Red? How many do you know besides ZWH that have 40+ copies of Harb #1? And so on....

To make matters worse, no dealer in his or her 'right mind' would have been actively seeking to PURCHASE Valiant books from 1996-2000, because there were simply 'no' (which we of course know is NOT true) customers for the books. Where there's demand, supply can generally follow, but no demand means that the supply...wherever it is...is going to be ignored.

So...you have the active seeking of these books by a dedicated, loyal, but VERY small group of fans, the general malaise and/or ignorance of the collecting public towards these books, and a deep distrust of them by dealers (how many of us have been laughed at/scoffed at when we said we were seeking to buy Valiants?) and you find the books utterly absent from the 'common' collector scene for nearly 5 years.

Enter eBay. For the first time, the market becomes truly national, if not global. People can slowly but surely start to acquire these books once more, because, if nothing else, eBay brings the lowest common denominator to play, and things people wouldn't consider spending the money on to sell elsewhere, will do so on eBay. eBay sellers either didn't know, or didn't care, about the potential value of the books, and were happy to get $10 for a Harb #1 (hey, that's 5 times cover price!!)

Still...prices for these books on eBay simply did not justify the time and effort to restock these books, especially considering that the in store traffic for Valiant is still at '1998' levels. As any collectibles dealer will tell you, it takes a great deal of $$$ to fly around before people become willing to search for something they 'think they might have from way back.' Up to and including the present day, we have not yet reached that point with regards to Valiant, with a few minor exceptions.

However...this may be about to change.

ALL of these factors combine to make the market VASTLY, VASTLY different from the one in 1993, and virtually guarantees there won't be a 'second collapse' (unless, of course, there's a general collapse of the back issue market en toto.)

4. What was hot once, as far as comics goes, is usually hot again at some point. This is the overwhelmingly dominating factor in my particular brand of 'investing'. I have boxes and boxes and boxes of 'keys', and if I have more than one 'regular' issue (say, Adventures of Superman #433, just as a total random example) it's because I either A. bought it as part of a collection; B. picked it up cause I thought I didn't have it; or C. I think it's got potential to BECOME a key (think New Mutants Annual #2.) I have 30 copies of bagged Superman #75 that I bought for $1 each, because I believe that the market for this will be consistent for some time to come. I also have dozens and dozens of key 80's books, because I believe very much that THEIR time will come, as well.

5. Applying the 'what was hot once will be again' factor, we discover that throughout comics collecting history, there have been literally hundreds of times that key books became 'hot' after years and years of being 'cold'. X-Men from #94-#143 is probably the single best example of all time. From roughly 1985-1991, X-Men back issues were dead, dead, dead. They were 'overpriced' (#94 was $115 in the guide, for God's sake! [;)] ) and no one cared. The low point was definitely 1988-1989, when everyone was hot for Batman and McFarlane Amazing Spiderman. You could (and I did) get non key Byrne NM X-Men issues for $5 each in the very early 90's, if you looked in the right places (keeping in mind that most of the run was $15 or less in O-street.) X-Men issues began a revival in the early 90's, beginning with the first issue of 'X-Men', and by the mid to late 90's, X-Men was again a very hot back issue commodity. Those who missed out on the first explosion in the early 80's, but wisely purchased during the slump in the late 80's, still ended up doing very, VERY well for themselves.

Valiant...the hottest of the hot in the early 90's, bar none, without compare, nothing even came CLOSE in hot terms during that time period....still has that lingering aura to it. Those who missed out on the first explosion may have ended up doing very well for themselves the second time around....and, unlike X-Men, may have been able to score the books for cover price or LESS during the dead time. While long, long gone are the days of trading a Harb #0 for a VF copy of Spidey #14 (God, I wish I had been thinking better in 1993. Sigh.) the fact remains that the books, by virtue of their previous hotness alone, are a TESTED collectible, which makes folks much, MUCH more willing to shell out the big bucks later on down the line.

As we all well know....it's so much easier to justify paying $125 for something TODAY when we know it sold for $125 over a decade ago over something that sold for $5 a decade ago. Add in inflation, and it's a done deal.

6. Supply and demand is the bottom line in all free markets, always, forever and ever. Keeping THAT in mind, realize that while a lot of GREAT stuff came out in the early 90's (X-Men #1-3, regardless of how you feel, was a VERY fitting end to Claremont's 'real' X-Men run), it was HIGHLY, HIGHLY 'overproduced'...with notable exceptions. The most notable exceptions, of course, are the entire first superhero year of new company Valiant comics, collectively called 'pre-Unity'. Low print run, combined with tremendously popular stories, created...for the first time in 30 years....an entire company LINE that ate up the charts. Marvel, DC, Image, et al, while producing some incredible...and lot of not so incredible....stuff...simply produced far too MUCH of it for it ever to have any sort of supply issues that normally drive up prices. Valiant, on the other hand, did not.

The supply of Valiant back issues is simply not there, and if it IS there, it's being held by collectors like us.

7. There is speculated to be about 500,000 active, purchasing comic collectors in the United States of America. There are currently nearly 300 million people in the United States of America (sorry for the repeat, I just love saying it. ) If only 2% of the ENTIRE population of the United States of America were to actively collect comics, every comic printed forever would have at least one buyer for one copy, with the possible exception of X-Men #1 (and even THAT printrun was split amongst five 'different' covers.) Prices would, naturally, soar through the roof as almost every back issue imaginable was purchased by the new 'collectors'.

Of course, this would include the Valiant market.

8. The one and only thing that would/will hinder a Valiant renaissance is this: the characters are not still being published. This could be nothing....it had little effect on EC (but, again, EC only had a few recurring characters, aka The Crypt Keeper, and never a featured cast)...or it could be the dominating factor in holding the market down.

Finally...I, too, have played the 'percentage of cover price' game over the years, and Greg's absolutely right. Averaged out over enough years, inflation and cover price wars have little effect on the overall percentages of increase that demonstrate how collectible a book is/was/will be.

X-Men #94 was a $60 book by early 1979. That's 240x cover price. I've said it before, but no other comic in history, before or since, has ever come close to doing what X-Men #94 did in as short a time as it did it, not even GS #1. However...several books gave it a run for it's money over the years, including Cerebus #1 ($440 in 1988, roughly 10+ years after release) Turtles #1 ($157 in 1988, 4 years after release), Batman #428 ($75 sales, less than 10 months after it's release, surely the winner in SHORT TERM percentage gains), New Mutants #87 ($65 after a year)...and a little book called Harbinger #1 ($125 after a little over a year.) No Valiant book did as well as Harb #1, percentage wise, even though there are now 20+ books that beat it price wise, it was 'the' Valiant book to own during the craze (premium books such as #0 can never be counted, as they were not released through normal channels of distribution, and 'not everyone' could potentially walk into a store and buy one for 'cover price'.)

Since then, of course, there have been no supersales champs, the hottest books barely reaching $50 (Witchblade #1, JLA #1, Daredevil #1, etc.)...until Ultimate Spiderman #1, which is the only book in 10+ years that recalls the glory days of incredibly hot, soaring in value new books..and it's initial cover price of $2.99 means it has only done a measly 50x cover price at $150...hardly a book to challenge the greatest of the great back in the day, but it's been the only regular book printed since 1993 to achieve this type of back market increase. The LAST 'over $100 book' until US #1 was Lady Death #1....printed almost 7 YEARS prior!

That's saying something.

Besides...what other market in the world has 'original retail price' not only part of the item, but printed right in plain sight for all to see? The only thing coming close would be the IPO in the stock market, but that usually has to be researched.

[depluto]

Zwei flaschen Bitburger zur mitnehmen, bitte.

What is Bitburger?

A brewski made in Bitburg. Almost a bitter taste, but gets the job done.

[poe]

When I started reading this thread and figured out what it was about,I had a dreadfull thought. So I read the thread all the way thru and guess what I was right. Not once did anybody think to suggest a rather inspiring idea. This fanboy is going to suggest instead of selling the books on ebay try sitting down and reading them. Valiants are/were desirable comics because they started by having good stories first. So for all the fanboys to busy drooling try reading them.POE

[LatinaEyes]

So for all the fanboys to busy drooling try reading them.POE

I think the drooling has finally stopped, which means you will all have time to sit down and read the books... including me.. Will I actually read them? who knows... But I have a better idea.. why don't you all give me the short version and 'tell' me what they are about...

[jedimarley]

NO, you try reading them.
Then YOU can give US the short, long, or any version you want to.
But until then, drop the attitude.

[LatinaEyes]

But until then, drop the attitude.

I was just kidding with my last statement about reading the books.. I didn't realize I was coming across with an attitude.. If I have offended anyone, I apologize.. That was not my intention... I did not mean to minimize your committment to the collection of comic books.. Again, my apologies...

[depluto]

There's nothing to apologize for. I haven't read all the books either, and I have every last one of them.