New Thread: book of legends

[paradise]

I buy my comics from a mail order outlet that has no shop front

I know of at least 3-4 online retailers, some on ebay and some with big sites, who have ZERO retail store fronts, and yet, they are eligible for returns. I don't understand what one has to do with the other.

[ErikG]

Having been castigated (by Greg and others) on the other current thread about "Legends" for threatening to drop all my Valiant titles because of this Retailer Incentive business, I think I should clarify certain matters that affect me and others not resident in the States about why I feel so strongly about this.

I understand Ed from Paradise, although I don't necessarily agree. I have been personal friends for over 20 years with the owner of the small comic shop chain I get my comics from here in South Africa, and I am not unaware of how things work. The chain has something like 7 or 8 Valiant customers. To satisfy them all, the owner would need to order 200 Book of Death #1's. Okay, so they can be obtained at 80% off, and they are returnable. 80% off is great, but "returnable" means nothing in the South African context -- and may mean nothing to Australia, or New Zealand, or Singapore, or other markets outside the USA. The cost of shipping comics from Diamond USA to international markets is extremely high but, fortunately, shipping in bulk tends to be cheaper than the shipping of smaller consignments, which means that the shipping costs are not as heavy for the comic buyer as they would be if he or she ordered from Mile High or other dealers directly. (For example: Mycomicshop.com charges 50% of your total order for shipping, so if you order $100 worth of items, you have to pay $50 on top of that -- plus customs charges at this end.)

That said, if the comic shop owner here wishes to return, say, 150 Book of Death #1's that have not sold to Diamond, it will cost him about as much as the retail price of those comics (if not more) to do so-- a small consignment costs a lot -- so it isn't viable for him to do so. You may argue that at 80% off he shouldn't even have to, because the 150 copies were cheap enough to obtain in the first place. But there will have been relatively heavy shipping costs and customs charges on them as well.

Furthermore, this is happening at a time when the owner has absolutely no idea what to order from DC and, especially, Marvel at a time when they are bringing out their "new" universes. No-one knows what will sell there and what won't, and the owner will probably have to order all the titles, just in case, as there is likely to be a lot of interest from casual buyers when the newspapers inevitably get hold of the story of the "new" universes. This means upfront financial constraints and quite a degree of risk. Diamond requires payment before shipment. It happened when the "New 52" launched -- certain titles sold well, if only for a few months, while others did not move at all and cannot be given away today.

So VEI's attempt to obtain more comic shop penetration is likely to be more of an annoyance to the owner than anything else. Yes, he'll do his best to make me happy, because he's done so in the past, and he'll try to do his best for the other Valiant customers (all 7 or 8 of us), but it comes at a bad time, and, movie announcement notwithstanding, I doubt there'll be any sort of demand for Valiant from other customers because of this -- not when there are Marvel's Star Wars titles, and Spider-Gwen, and Ms. Marvel, and X-Men and so on that they like and prefer -- and, of course, the fact that many old customers have given up paper for digital. (Digital Valiant might cost the same as the floppy in the USA, but here digital is relatively cheaper because there are no shipping costs or customs charges, plus one can read a title on the same day that it appears in the USA and not have to wait a week or more.)

Paul Nolan obviously lives in the UK, so I understand where he's coming from. At least there's Diamond UK there to ship returnables to. Here in South Africa there isn't. It has to be the USA. I don't know about Australia or New Zealand or other countries. But if this "Legends" business is annoying to many of you in the States, it's downright upsetting to those of us serious readers and collectors elsewhere.

So when Greg and others suggest that I should be part of the team and go the extra mile for VEI on this, and that I won't be missed if I don't and leave, I get a little "SQUEE"ed off. I've gone more than that mile for Valiant, and I've done so since the early 90s. Which is why I find this latest thing something of a betrayal by VEI of those who are the most loyal to it.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt that some clarification was required. We're not all of us in the same boat, and it's not easy outside of the States to be a Valiant fan -- which is why I remarked on the other thread that maybe Dinesh should remember what it was like for him in Hong Kong back in the day...

[Joshua]

Ed could probably get these book for whoever wants them.

[paradise]

I understand Ed from Paradise, although I don't necessarily agree. I have been personal friends for over 20 years with the owner of the small comic shop chain I get my comics from here in South Africa, and I am not unaware of how things work. The chain has something like 7 or 8 Valiant customers. To satisfy them all, the owner would need to order 200 Book of Death #1's. Okay, so they can be obtained at 80% off, and they are returnable. 80% off is great, but "returnable" means nothing in the South African context ...

Eric, if you are friends with the shop owner, and love Valiant, offer the shop owner to pay the $20 for the books, get your copy of Book of Death, and your copy of Book of Legends, then spend a Saturday at the store, giving away extra copies to others who don't read Valiant. Or the store owner can do that, considering he paid just 80 cents each. Either way, it's a WIN WIN.

Or you can quit and not enjoy the books you really like, and I am sorry, but the truth is, people quit all the time. People lose jobs, family members, get diseases and have medical bills. This happens all over, and I don't mean to minimize your patronage but....

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU! (sorry, I love saying that to my kids, they are such entitled brats because they grew up in a nice neighborhood and always got things without working hard, but it kind of applies here).

I guarantee you that no matter what type of sad store story you or anyone tells me, I can find a way to make this work to the store's benefit. Because I actually TRY to make things work instead of complaining about how they don't.

[ilzuccone]

Ok i'll check if my LCS understands this deal and make sure i get a copy…



ED? seems like a win win. you should order some of these books for me.
I love having paradise as my lcs. makes it real easy being a valiant fan… and i am a valiant fan because of ed (and andy)

[paradise]

Ed could probably get these book for whoever wants them.

I doubt one will be able to just order one from me for $X and pay for it. That puts all the work on me, and I do enough, trust me

But, yes, I am working out the details (with VEI) to have something to offer members of this site that will include this book in the package. But it will include other books as part of the deal, that is the only way it helps VEI and me (cause it is my employees and I that have to do a lot of work to get it done).

[tchalla8]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU! (sorry, I love saying that to my kids, they are such entitled brats because they grew up in a nice neighborhood and always got things without working hard, but it kind of applies here).

Who is about again?

[lorddunlow]

Ed could probably get these book for whoever wants them.

I doubt one will be able to just order one from me for $X and pay for it. That puts all the work on me, and I do enough, trust me

But, yes, I am working out the details (with VEI) to have something to offer members of this site that will include this book in the package. But it will include other books as part of the deal, that is the only way it helps VEI and me (cause it is my employees and I that have to do a lot of work to get it done).

THIS!!

You nailed the issue right here. It is work on the part of the LCS to make VEI more visible. It may be a win-win once the work is done, but there is still work involved. Most people when given the choice to tick a few people off to do zero work or make those few happy by putting extra effort in, will opt to gamble with ticking the few off.

I've tried promoting VEI at my store. He has as well (but not that much). I've tried promoting lots of books. People like what they like in my area. I can't make them read and subscribe. (One of my favorite monthlies was canceled because of low readership. I couldn't convince anyone to check it out.) Because of that, I can't have easy access to this? That's crap.

I should just be able to order a story for $x if I want it. IF I and my LCS have to work for it in a way that benefits VEI, then that rubs me a little raw. Even if it's only a little work and is mutually beneficial.

[geocarr]

I should just be able to order a story for $x if I want it. IF I and my LCS have to work for it in a way that benefits VEI, then that rubs me a little raw. Even if it's only a little work and is mutually beneficial.

Life not fair? Feeling a little entitled? I say enjoy that mutually beneficial raw rub. Make lemonade out of lemons. Turn that frown upside down. Dance in the rain.
Okay, that last one was a bit of a stretch.

[cray_ws]

Almost like we the customer have to go the extra mile just to earn the right to spend our money on Valiant product. Takes extra leg work on our part on top of giving them our money...just so we can access to a story we'd like to read.

I love promoting Valiant, but I do think there's a culture of that that goes on here. Valiant is a professional comic book / intellectual property company, massively backed by investors. They're not some Kickstarter that your cousin is running. Do we really need to be spamming comments sections, spamming Amazon reviews, and doing all the things that some folks do to promote the company, when they have people on payroll to do that? Not knocking anyone who does that at all, but does stuff like that really help? Is it in any way our responsibility. I don't see anyone going out of their way to promote Firefox or Pepsi.

But on that same note, counting on fans to do PR work seems to be working for Valiant, so I gotta agree with Ed that this seems pretty brilliant. Definitely never seen it done before. Hope it works!!

and people here think I am nuts about Valiant actually hiring a real public relations agency instead of putting it on fans to create some grassroots campaign that ultimately gets ignored by shop owners who are clearly biased idiots. I am telling you 90% of comic book shop dealers have no business or marketing degree. Just a bunch of fanboys willing to order a bunch books from Preview's catalog. I am sorry you might think your comic shop guy is really nice and knows his stuff....but he don't know jack about running a company let alone trying to grow beyond the hellhole it started.

[paradise]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU! (sorry, I love saying that to my kids, they are such entitled brats because they grew up in a nice neighborhood and always got things without working hard, but it kind of applies here).

Who is about again?

I just think there are two types of people in the world, those who complain about how they can't get things done, or how others are ahead of them, and those who try their whole life to get ahead and do better and not to be in that position. I choose to be the latter. I never think I am entitled to anything, and understand that sometimes the outcome to me is not as important as the outcome to the person making the decision. I look at the situation and try to make it work for me, instead of worrying about how it's bad for me. Difference of approaches.



This will sound like bragging, but I really hope you see it for what I am trying to say. I came to this country at 18 years old, with my parents. They had NOTHING, my dad drove a taxi, and my mom cleaned old people after they had accidents in bed. I knew some English, but not well. Four weeks after we got here I got my first job, and since then I never had less than ONE job, most of the time 2 or 3. I have bagged groceries, sold Newspapers door to door, but I always moved up. At 20, I started my first business, building computer systems and teaching people how to use them. At 24, I opened my first store. At 39, I stepped out of both of my stores (except for what I do for you guys online and marketing) to start a new business, in a completely unrelated field (Ambulance transportation). I can afford my life because I work like a mother effer to make it happen. My wife does not sit at home raising children, we have been together since high school and she'd never NOT had a job. She moved up every time and now heads HR department at a huge company with 500 employees, and gets paid big money for that. Neither one of us ever got a hand out, we built everything from scratch. That's the beauty of capitalism. You have to push it HARD to achieve something.

I could have sat there and complained about how my bad english was preventing me from getting a good job, or the fact that I was an immigrant and did not have a good school diploma prevented me from going to a good college and limited my opportunities. I chose to find another way. Because it was not about me.

That's why I always tell my kids when they tell me their problems, It's not about you. You need to understand that the world will turn whether you are part of it or not. VEI will make their decisions because they need to get ahead as a brand and build their share. You can talk about how you will quit, but that will a) not get you closer to that book, and b) won't matter to anyone but you. So choose not to complain, choose to figure out a way to get that book within the current parameters. It will make you feel better.

Sorry if I ran long or hit a nerve, I am having a crappy day today and it's vent time

[tchalla8]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU! (sorry, I love saying that to my kids, they are such entitled brats because they grew up in a nice neighborhood and always got things without working hard, but it kind of applies here).

Who is about again?

I just think there are two types of people in the world, those who complain about how they can't get things done, or how others are ahead of them, and those who try their whole life to get ahead and do better and not to be in that position. I choose to be the latter. I never think I am entitled to anything, and understand that sometimes the outcome to me is not as important as the outcome to the person making the decision. I look at the situation and try to make it work for me, instead of worrying about how it's bad for me. Difference of approaches.



This will sound like bragging, but I really hope you see it for what I am trying to say. I came to this country at 18 years old, with my parents. They had NOTHING, my dad drove a taxi, and my mom cleaned old people after they had accidents in bed. I knew some English, but not well. Four weeks after we got here I got my first job, and since then I never had less than ONE job, most of the time 2 or 3. I have bagged groceries, sold Newspapers door to door, but I always moved up. At 20, I started my first business, building computer systems and teaching people how to use them. At 24, I opened my first store. At 39, I stepped out of both of my stores (except for what I do for you guys online and marketing) to start a new business, in a completely unrelated field (Ambulance transportation). I can afford my life because I work like a mother effer to make it happen. My wife does not sit at home raising children, we have been together since high school and she'd never NOT had a job. She moved up every time and now heads HR department at a huge company with 500 employees, and gets paid big money for that. Neither one of us ever got a hand out, we built everything from scratch. That's the beauty of capitalism. You have to push it HARD to achieve something.

I could have sat there and complained about how my bad english was preventing me from getting a good job, or the fact that I was an immigrant and did not have a good school diploma prevented me from going to a good college and limited my opportunities. I chose to find another way. Because it was not about me.

That's why I always tell my kids when they tell me their problems, It's not about you. You need to understand that the world will turn whether you are part of it or not. VEI will make their decisions because they need to get ahead as a brand and build their share. You can talk about how you will quit, but that will a) not get you closer to that book, and b) won't matter to anyone but you. So choose not to complain, choose to figure out a way to get that book within the current parameters. It will make you feel better.

Sorry if I ran long or hit a nerve, I am having a crappy day today and it's vent time

No worries. I know it took a lot of conversation with VEI for you to come around to this idea. Not all of us have had that opportunity, so we're naturally skeptical.

[ErikG]

Thanks for the advice, Ed -- and I'm not being sarcastic, believe me, because while I may not always agree with you, I like your attitude. Plus I like your website!

Anyway... As I tried to point out, life for comic collectors outside the States is not easy and never has been. Yes, I could do as you suggest, but US$20 here is the equivalent of 3-4 days' essential groceries, like food, thanks to the current exchange rate. But that's my problem. As I've said elsewhere, I'm a story completist. That is also my problem. I have always loved Valiant, and I still do, in spite of the current debacle, and maybe that too is another of my problems.

I'll get the "Legends" series eventually, one way or another, but why should I have to go to all the trouble this will entail? When I discovered Valiant in the 90s, I tracked my missing issues all over the world -- USA, UK, even Singapore -- and as I remember, a mint copy of Harbinger #1 set me back a fortune, but I didn't mind. I both hated and loved the hunt, so I do understand the guys here who like this kind of challenge. Except it's 25 years later and I find I no longer have the energy I used to have for the chase.

I've just seen your >RANT< post above and agree with everything you say in the "pre-rant". I too have never sat on my hands -- I began working at 16, managed to get two university degrees along the way, and ended up getting an excellent position in an international company, and was successful enough to retire before I turned 50. I now devote my time to doing those things my 16-hour working days back then did not give me time for.

I am not squealing because I feel hard done by. I am squealing because I believe this is not a good move on the part of VEI. As others here and elsewhere have pointed out, VEI seems to want their customers to pressure comic shops to order Valiant -- but I'm certain most of us having been doing this all along. Our reward in this case? An obviously essential issue that only a few of us will get to own. Believe what you want to, Ed, but it's up to retailers to push product, not consumers. And I'm squealing because I feel strangely let down by VEI. Even betrayed, although I shouldn't be, because VEI is a corporation and will do what it can to make a profit, and that, yes, is the nature of capitalism. And perhaps I'm squealing too because these are thoughts about VEI I don't want to entertain. But human nature is human nature: VEI seems to want us to market their product at our expense, and that is just plain arrogant and very short-sighted. I resent it. This from a publisher with less than 1% of the market? But at least they've gotten a reaction, and that might be what they wanted all along... Nevertheless, my loyalty to Valiant has been shaken by this, and I don't think I'll feel the same way I did about them again.

In case you're wondering if I'm exaggerating about the costs of getting comics from the States, just pretend you do international orders (I assume you don't) and get your local post office to work out how much it would cost to get nine monthly Valiant titles ($36) shipped airmail to South Africa. Or Fedexed, for that matter.

I'm sorry you had a crappy day, and I thank you for your attempts to explain and defuse. Much appreciated.

[nycjadie]

I can afford my life because I work like a mother effer to make it happen.

Me too, ever since I was 15. Poverty and homelessness was part of my family life early on, and it's a large part of why I work incredibly hard and read comics today. It was a great escape for me, and instead of thumbing through my old Overstreet guide wishing like I did as a kid, I buy those books and art now. In many cases, they are cheaper than when I was a kid;)

[SJS4]

I will say I understand what paradise is saying and I understand the strategy VEI is attempting...but I still think, overall this is a bad idea.

Unfortunately my LCS got burned last year (or late 2013ish?) after attempting to go heavy into Valiant with Unity. I feel bad for them because I talked up VEI so much and then it bombed. I don't have the heart to ask them to do it again. At this point they aren't even buying shelf copies anymore of Valiant comics, I doubt they would listen to me if I tried.

All that being said I am sure I'll get my copy of the series somehow. Ideally via paradise (big fan of their package deals) but surely through ebay or midtown at worst.

[lorddunlow]

Unfortunately my LCS got burned last year (or late 2013ish?) after attempting to go heavy into Valiant with Unity. I feel bad for them because I talked up VEI so much and then it bombed. I don't have the heart to ask them to do it again. At this point they aren't even buying shelf copies anymore of Valiant comics, I doubt they would listen to me if I tried.

This is my problem as well.

[Paul Nolan]

This is not about any person. This is about a company having to explain why they are putting obstacles in the way of their loyal fanbase.

If a company have to explain why they are doing something. Then more than likely, they are doing it very wrong.

[erwinrafael]

Now that I have resolved to reduce my VEI regular pull to 3, I definitely do not have any leverage anymore with my LCS so that I can get this FVL book. Sigh. And I would not fork out money to get this book because it would amount to one week salary. I could not morally justify with my family why I have to spend so much for one book.

[paradise]

Now that I have resolved to reduce my VEI regular pull to 3, I definitely do not have any leverage anymore with my LCS so that I can get this FVL book. Sigh. And I would not fork out money to get this book because it would amount to one week salary. I could not morally justify with my family why I have to spend so much for one book.

So you just "resolved" to become less of a Valiant fan, but "Sigh" they won't get this book for you for $4? Definition of entitlement attitude (IMHO, your opinion may vary).

[paradise]

I will say I understand what paradise is saying and I understand the strategy VEI is attempting...but I still think, overall this is a bad idea.

Unfortunately my LCS got burned last year (or late 2013ish?) after attempting to go heavy into Valiant with Unity. I feel bad for them because I talked up VEI so much and then it bombed. I don't have the heart to ask them to do it again. At this point they aren't even buying shelf copies anymore of Valiant comics, I doubt they would listen to me if I tried.

All that being said I am sure I'll get my copy of the series somehow. Ideally via paradise (big fan of their package deals) but surely through ebay or midtown at worst.

There are many options out there, not just ONE LFS. I offer one, so do many others, often at a much lower price (not always better service).

Did your LFS look at all those Unity #1s and try to give one for free to every customer? How much did they do after buying a bunch of copies to actually create an audience. I sell a lot of valiant books and gns in my stores, without me, the crazy vei fan being there. I know it's easily done with the right personnel. The upside of my stores doing it for 3 years is now becoming evident after the movie news and everything else. Makes my guys look like geniuses for backing the right horse. Ordering a bunch of books in a store which sells none is not going to do it. You gotta sell it.

[paradise]

This is not about any person. This is about a company having to explain why they are putting obstacles in the way of their loyal fanbase.

If a company have to explain why they are doing something. Then more than likely, they are doing it very wrong.

Wrong, in YOUR opinion. They don't have to explain anything to you or me or anyone else. Sorry, but that's just a bad attitude. Assuming you know better than the people who are in business doing this.

[paradise]

In case you're wondering if I'm exaggerating about the costs of getting comics from the States, just pretend you do international orders (I assume you don't) and get your local post office to work out how much it would cost to get nine monthly Valiant titles ($36) shipped airmail to South Africa. Or Fedexed, for that matter.

The "I assume you don't" part proves my point. You assume that they owe you something, you assume that asking fans to try and get support is a random move, even though it's a strategy that has always worked for old and new valiant, and for every publisher of ANYTHING in this day and age of Social Media.

Just so that you don't need to assume, I do worldwide mail-order and have customers on this site alone from Sweden to Australia, and a lot of places in between. So I am pretty qualified to make my statements.

[Donovan]

The only crime for me is that I'm going out of my way to buy a book I want by an artist I don't like!

Great "rants", Ed. You run one hell of a shop. If my LCS doesn't come through on this for whatever reason, I'll be giving you more business for this book! (TO CANADA, nonetheless!)

[SJS4]

I will say I understand what paradise is saying and I understand the strategy VEI is attempting...but I still think, overall this is a bad idea.

Unfortunately my LCS got burned last year (or late 2013ish?) after attempting to go heavy into Valiant with Unity. I feel bad for them because I talked up VEI so much and then it bombed. I don't have the heart to ask them to do it again. At this point they aren't even buying shelf copies anymore of Valiant comics, I doubt they would listen to me if I tried.

All that being said I am sure I'll get my copy of the series somehow. Ideally via paradise (big fan of their package deals) but surely through ebay or midtown at worst.

There are many options out there, not just ONE LFS. I offer one, so do many others, often at a much lower price (not always better service).

Did your LFS look at all those Unity #1s and try to give one for free to every customer? How much did they do after buying a bunch of copies to actually create an audience. I sell a lot of valiant books and gns in my stores, without me, the crazy vei fan being there. I know it's easily done with the right personnel. The upside of my stores doing it for 3 years is now becoming evident after the movie news and everything else. Makes my guys look like geniuses for backing the right horse. Ordering a bunch of books in a store which sells none is not going to do it. You gotta sell it.

No idea how hard they pushed, i am only there for about 10 minutes once every 2-3 weeks.

And i did say i am not too worried about getting the series (hopefully from you ). If my LCS does take another shot with BotD i will happily buy an extra copy from them as well. Even though they don't seem to buy shelf copies they do know i am "all in" on valiant so they do order copies for my sub every month. Hopefully it keeps them aware of tge brand.

[Michael_Ayer]

Ed, Paradise... I love it. Yes. Agreed. Thank you.