The Valiant #4 Discussion

[Tim]

Blegh.

Waste of a interesting character who had potential.

Waste of a "first meeting" scenario with oh, the whole Valiant Universe.

Waste of Paolo Rivera.

Waste of time.

The whole series.

More Venditti, Dysart and Van Lente and less Kindt and Lemire, please.

[BugsySig]

Blegh.

Waste of a interesting character who had potential.

Waste of a "first meeting" scenario with oh, the whole Valiant Universe.

Waste of Paolo Rivera.

Waste of time.

The whole series.

More Venditti, Dysart and Van Lente and less Kindt and Lemire, please.

To be fair the only thing we've read at VEI thus far from Lemire was his co-writing of The Valiant. I'm still very intrigued by what he has planned for Bloodshot reborn, and the fact that he has a years plus worth of scripts already written leads me to believe the character will at least finally have some consistency.

Kindt, however, is wearing me a little thin. So far so good on Divinity and most of Unity has been fine but nothing spectacular. But Rai is all over the place and has a lot of potential for "hot mess" status in the near future if he doesn't pull it all together. Ninjak remains to be seen but I quite enjoyed issue one and his portrayal in Unity thus far.

[Dallow Spicer1]

In the main I've enjoyed Kindt's writing so I'm happy for him to continue. I'd say the editorial team need to do a better job in some aspects though and perhaps they could have avoided some of the aspects we haven't been so keen on. Maybe it was editorial direction to Kindt/Lemite to 'use all of the VEI characters in order to expose potential new readers to them'? I can imagine this being the case, not sure we'll ever know unless one of the Valiant podcasts are feeling brave enough to ask Warren or one of the other editors.

I'm definitely interested in what Lemire can bring to the table with Bloodshot Reborn, I have high hopes for this series.

[jmatt]

Rai is all over the place and has a lot of potential for "hot mess" status in the near future if he doesn't pull it all together.

It's a great book but as we've said before, and I think this an apt analogy, too many spinning plates.

[FormerReader]

[blujay]

On the subject of Kind-T, I like him as a writer, I think he tells good stories and puts out consistently entertaining material, but does anybody else find it a little strange that he's writing literally almost every book in the line? Especially when Josh Dysart, the only writer (as far as I know) with an exclusivity contract, is only writing one book.

I understand guys like FVL and V-Ditti are busy with work for other companies and I'm not saying that I'd like to see less Kind-T (especially in relation to Ninjak books cuz he's killing it with the character) just that I'm surprised one writer has around 3 - 5 books in the line while guys like Dysart, Gage, Milligan, Pak or any other friends of VEI write one series at a time/intermittently.

[BugsySig]

On the subject of Kind-T, I like him as a writer, I think he tells good stories and puts out consistently entertaining material, but does anybody else find it a little strange that he's writing literally almost every book in the line? Especially when Josh Dysart, the only writer (as far as I know) with an exclusivity contract, is only writing one book.

I understand guys like FVL and V-Ditti are busy with work for other companies and I'm not saying that I'd like to see less Kind-T (especially in relation to Ninjak books cuz he's killing it with the character) just that I'm surprised one writer has around 3 - 5 books in the line while guys like Dysart, Gage, Milligan, Pak or any other friends of VEI write one series at a time/intermittently.

I agree on both points

[kjjohanson]

I read the whole mini this weekend, and I agree with a lot of the criticism here. Problems that I'm seeing:

• No sense of what motivates the Immortal Enemy (that is, why he/it is hunting down Geomancers, and whether it's of importance which Geomancers are being targeted
• Largely wasted team-up. If the idea was to introduce new readers to Valiant's characters, it fell far short on giving anything more that a brief visual on most of them. (Archer doesn't have anything of interest to offer by reading the Akashic records?)
• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character
• No explanation of what the Eternal Warrior was doing with the Boon
• No explanation of what Kay did to the nanites

Valiant needs to do a better job of providing more story in each issue. This mini didn't feel like an event. There didn't seem to be much offered up in the interaction between Kay and Bloodshot that one couldn't learn by reading the earlier books.

[blujay]

• No sense of what motivates the Immortal Enemy (that is, why he/it is hunting down Geomancers, and whether it's of importance which Geomancers are being targeted
• Largely wasted team-up. If the idea was to introduce new readers to Valiant's characters, it fell far short on giving anything more that a brief visual on most of them. (Archer doesn't have anything of interest to offer by reading the Akashic records?)
• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character
• No explanation of what the Eternal Warrior was doing with the Boon
• No explanation of what Kay did to the nanites

1. Well, I figured IE is a sort of "beyond your comprehension" type baddie. Obviously he's some sort of counterbalance/force of death which will probably become more clear next time we see him.
2. I think the team up was just to show how serious a threat IE is. For instance if you didn't have Aric and Gin-Gr there, we'd all be saying "Why didn't Neville order Aric and Gin-Gr to drop in and waste his *SQUEE*?" It's really to demonstrate the inevitability of the IE, and that no amount of brute strength will be enough to stop it (as demonstrated by The Valiant #1).
3. I can see your point here, ironically this is the second character killed to develop Bloodshot lol
4 & 5. That's what we in the biz call a "teaser", you're just gonna have to be patient. I would be VERY surprised if Bloodshot Reborn and the next EW series didn't address these issues.

[kjjohanson]

• No sense of what motivates the Immortal Enemy (that is, why he/it is hunting down Geomancers, and whether it's of importance which Geomancers are being targeted
• Largely wasted team-up. If the idea was to introduce new readers to Valiant's characters, it fell far short on giving anything more that a brief visual on most of them. (Archer doesn't have anything of interest to offer by reading the Akashic records?)
• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character
• No explanation of what the Eternal Warrior was doing with the Boon
• No explanation of what Kay did to the nanites

1. Well, I figured IE is a sort of "beyond your comprehension" type baddie. Obviously he's some sort of counterbalance/force of death which will probably become more clear next time we see him.
2. I think the team up was just to show how serious a threat IE is. For instance if you didn't have Aric and Gin-Gr there, we'd all be saying "Why didn't Neville order Aric and Gin-Gr to drop in and waste his *SQUEE*?" It's really to demonstrate the inevitability of the IE, and that no amount of brute strength will be enough to stop it (as demonstrated by The Valiant #1).
3. I can see your point here, ironically this is the second character killed to develop Bloodshot lol
4 & 5. That's what we in the biz call a "teaser", you're just gonna have to be patient. I would be VERY surprised if Bloodshot Reborn and the next EW series didn't address these issues.

Sorry, but as for the last point (and the first as well), that's what I call an incomplete story. The resolution should still work as a complete story, even if there are further ramifications that play out later. What you're telling me is that I shelled out $16 for a mini which isn't actually a complete mini, but will only work as a story…maybe…if I pick up books to be published later.

[ilzuccone]

I'm not sure why Bloodshot had light skin, wasn't it established that he was actually black?

It was established that a Bloodshot was black, not necessarily the current one.

a few drawings of vei bloodshot were for sure of a black dude. others white... others.. middle eastern or something

[ilzuccone]

On the subject of Kind-T, I like him as a writer, I think he tells good stories and puts out consistently entertaining material, but does anybody else find it a little strange that he's writing literally almost every book in the line? Especially when Josh Dysart, the only writer (as far as I know) with an exclusivity contract, is only writing one book.

I understand guys like FVL and V-Ditti are busy with work for other companies and I'm not saying that I'd like to see less Kind-T (especially in relation to Ninjak books cuz he's killing it with the character) just that I'm surprised one writer has around 3 - 5 books in the line while guys like Dysart, Gage, Milligan, Pak or any other friends of VEI write one series at a time/intermittently.

I agree on both points

dysart might have an exclusive with valiant but these writers don't always focus on one medium. he could be doing other work and only has time for one comic. in fact a lot of other jobs pay better than comics

[blujay]

On the subject of Kind-T, I like him as a writer, I think he tells good stories and puts out consistently entertaining material, but does anybody else find it a little strange that he's writing literally almost every book in the line? Especially when Josh Dysart, the only writer (as far as I know) with an exclusivity contract, is only writing one book.

I understand guys like FVL and V-Ditti are busy with work for other companies and I'm not saying that I'd like to see less Kind-T (especially in relation to Ninjak books cuz he's killing it with the character) just that I'm surprised one writer has around 3 - 5 books in the line while guys like Dysart, Gage, Milligan, Pak or any other friends of VEI write one series at a time/intermittently.

I agree on both points

dysart might have an exclusive with valiant but these writers don't always focus on one medium. he could be doing other work and only has time for one comic. in fact a lot of other jobs pay better than comics

Good point & very true.

But I'm assuming VEI made the exclusivity contract worth signing, so maybe he's got something coming in the future...I think I'll tweet Josh about it later

[bygranddesign]

I'm not sure why Bloodshot had light skin, wasn't it established that he was actually black?

It was established that a Bloodshot was black, not necessarily the current one.

a few drawings of vei bloodshot were for sure of a black dude. others white... others.. middle eastern or something

This COULD be more lack of consistency / stability

As soon as Bloodshot #0 came out and established that the host body of Bloodshot came from a black soldier (in the 90's) ... all of a sudden the PRESENT day Bloodshot starting taking on black characteristics in his features from many of the artists that started drawing him.

Rivera sort of drew him as black as well ... but then Kay indicated that this was his true face. Which is some white dude. I would assume that this Ray fellow is the current host body.

I guess it could be assumed that the Black soldier's host body died at some point ... and they transferred the nanite blood to a new host body. Every time a host body gets killed off they transfer the blood to another dying person/soldier .. and they become the new bloodshot.

Ray might be the 4th? 5th? 10th? 100th? different host body. Each host body now has the memories/souls of all the previous host bodies

what makes it even more confusing is that we know that there are IMPLANTED memories as well. Memories that are COMPLETELY fabricated/FALSE in the mix as well (thats established in the early run of Bloodshot).

So Bloodshot has the souls of dead host bodies + hundred of FALSE memories ... no wonder the guy is F*** UP

The different looks/facial features of Bloodshot could be explained away by
1) Artist interpretation
2) Bloodshot can change appearance ... so perhaps he makes little changes in his appearances of whichever soul/or false memory decides to suit his fancy

[ilzuccone]

I'm not sure why Bloodshot had light skin, wasn't it established that he was actually black?

It was established that a Bloodshot was black, not necessarily the current one.

a few drawings of vei bloodshot were for sure of a black dude. others white... others.. middle eastern or something

This COULD be more lack of consistency / stability

As soon as Bloodshot #0 came out and established that the host body of Bloodshot came from a black soldier (in the 90's) ... all of a sudden the PRESENT day Bloodshot starting taking on black characteristics in his features from many of the artists that started drawing him.

Rivera sort of drew him as black as well ... but then Kay indicated that this was his true face. Which is some white dude. I would assume that this Ray fellow is the current host body.

I guess it could be assumed that the Black soldier's host body died at some point ... and they transferred the nanite blood to a new host body. Every time a host body gets killed off they transfer the blood to another dying person/soldier .. and they become the new bloodshot.

Ray might be the 4th? 5th? 10th? 100th? different host body. Each host body now has the memories/souls of all the previous host bodies

what makes it even more confusing is that we know that there are IMPLANTED memories as well. Memories that are COMPLETELY fabricated/FALSE in the mix as well (thats established in the early run of Bloodshot).

So Bloodshot has the souls of dead host bodies + hundred of FALSE memories ... no wonder the guy is F*** UP

The different looks/facial features of Bloodshot could be explained away by
1) Artist interpretation
2) Bloodshot can change appearance ... so perhaps he makes little changes in his appearances of whichever soul/or false memory decides to suit his fancy

ehh this is assuming a lot. i like where you are going though

[Sven the Returned]

His wife was white in his fantasies? Right? Not that means anything, but we can extrapolate statistics from hr number of IRL mixed relationships.

I don't really care as long Afro Bloodshot stays black.

[Brapbrap]

• No sense of what motivates the Immortal Enemy (that is, why he/it is hunting down Geomancers, and whether it's of importance which Geomancers are being targeted
• Largely wasted team-up. If the idea was to introduce new readers to Valiant's characters, it fell far short on giving anything more that a brief visual on most of them. (Archer doesn't have anything of interest to offer by reading the Akashic records?)
• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character
• No explanation of what the Eternal Warrior was doing with the Boon
• No explanation of what Kay did to the nanites

1. Well, I figured IE is a sort of "beyond your comprehension" type baddie. Obviously he's some sort of counterbalance/force of death which will probably become more clear next time we see him.
2. I think the team up was just to show how serious a threat IE is. For instance if you didn't have Aric and Gin-Gr there, we'd all be saying "Why didn't Neville order Aric and Gin-Gr to drop in and waste his *SQUEE*?" It's really to demonstrate the inevitability of the IE, and that no amount of brute strength will be enough to stop it (as demonstrated by The Valiant #1).
3. I can see your point here, ironically this is the second character killed to develop Bloodshot lol
4 & 5. That's what we in the biz call a "teaser", you're just gonna have to be patient. I would be VERY surprised if Bloodshot Reborn and the next EW series didn't address these issues.

Sorry, but as for the last point (and the first as well), that's what I call an incomplete story. The resolution should still work as a complete story, even if there are further ramifications that play out later. What you're telling me is that I shelled out $16 for a mini which isn't actually a complete mini, but will only work as a story…maybe…if I pick up books to be published later.

they don't need to tell us every little detail of what is happening, if kay stopped to explain exactly what she was doing to bloodshot's nanites then it would ruin the tension of the scene. if the future scene had started with a big text box explaining what the boon was doing in this scene it would ruin the scene. nobody likes out of place exposition

all we need to know is that bloodshot can now look like a normal man and gilad sent the geomancer back in time and used the boon to help accomplish this, these are resolutions to problems in the story and the fact that we didn't get an essay on how each thing worked exactly doesn't make this an incomplete story

[BugsySig]

I'm not sure why Bloodshot had light skin, wasn't it established that he was actually black?

It was established that a Bloodshot was black, not necessarily the current one.

a few drawings of vei bloodshot were for sure of a black dude. others white... others.. middle eastern or something

This COULD be more lack of consistency / stability

As soon as Bloodshot #0 came out and established that the host body of Bloodshot came from a black soldier (in the 90's) ... all of a sudden the PRESENT day Bloodshot starting taking on black characteristics in his features from many of the artists that started drawing him.

Rivera sort of drew him as black as well ... but then Kay indicated that this was his true face. Which is some white dude. I would assume that this Ray fellow is the current host body.

I guess it could be assumed that the Black soldier's host body died at some point ... and they transferred the nanite blood to a new host body. Every time a host body gets killed off they transfer the blood to another dying person/soldier .. and they become the new bloodshot.

Ray might be the 4th? 5th? 10th? 100th? different host body. Each host body now has the memories/souls of all the previous host bodies

what makes it even more confusing is that we know that there are IMPLANTED memories as well. Memories that are COMPLETELY fabricated/FALSE in the mix as well (thats established in the early run of Bloodshot).

So Bloodshot has the souls of dead host bodies + hundred of FALSE memories ... no wonder the guy is F*** UP

The different looks/facial features of Bloodshot could be explained away by
1) Artist interpretation
2) Bloodshot can change appearance ... so perhaps he makes little changes in his appearances of whichever soul/or false memory decides to suit his fancy

In issue 25 there was the story where a Bloodshot returns home to his wife. I believe this was the Ray Garrison Bloodshot.

[kjjohanson]

• No sense of what motivates the Immortal Enemy (that is, why he/it is hunting down Geomancers, and whether it's of importance which Geomancers are being targeted
• Largely wasted team-up. If the idea was to introduce new readers to Valiant's characters, it fell far short on giving anything more that a brief visual on most of them. (Archer doesn't have anything of interest to offer by reading the Akashic records?)
• The fridging of Kay. This makes three female characters (along with Pulse and Flamingo) in VEI so far that have been sacrificed to further the story of a male character
• No explanation of what the Eternal Warrior was doing with the Boon
• No explanation of what Kay did to the nanites

1. Well, I figured IE is a sort of "beyond your comprehension" type baddie. Obviously he's some sort of counterbalance/force of death which will probably become more clear next time we see him.
2. I think the team up was just to show how serious a threat IE is. For instance if you didn't have Aric and Gin-Gr there, we'd all be saying "Why didn't Neville order Aric and Gin-Gr to drop in and waste his *SQUEE*?" It's really to demonstrate the inevitability of the IE, and that no amount of brute strength will be enough to stop it (as demonstrated by The Valiant #1).
3. I can see your point here, ironically this is the second character killed to develop Bloodshot lol
4 & 5. That's what we in the biz call a "teaser", you're just gonna have to be patient. I would be VERY surprised if Bloodshot Reborn and the next EW series didn't address these issues.

Sorry, but as for the last point (and the first as well), that's what I call an incomplete story. The resolution should still work as a complete story, even if there are further ramifications that play out later. What you're telling me is that I shelled out $16 for a mini which isn't actually a complete mini, but will only work as a story…maybe…if I pick up books to be published later.

they don't need to tell us every little detail of what is happening, if kay stopped to explain exactly what she was doing to bloodshot's nanites then it would ruin the tension of the scene. if the future scene had started with a big text box explaining what the boon was doing in this scene it would ruin the scene. nobody likes out of place exposition

all we need to know is that bloodshot can now look like a normal man and gilad sent the geomancer back in time and used the boon to help accomplish this, these are resolutions to problems in the story and the fact that we didn't get an essay on how each thing worked exactly doesn't make this an incomplete story

Is it necessary for Kay to give a big exposition on what she is doing? No. But as a writer, it is your responsibility to find a way to convey to the reader what is going on. There are too many instances of things not being explained in this mini for the reader to take much substance away from it.

[hunter_peterson]

I'm not sure why Bloodshot had light skin, wasn't it established that he was actually black?

It was established that a Bloodshot was black, not necessarily the current one.

a few drawings of vei bloodshot were for sure of a black dude. others white... others.. middle eastern or something

This COULD be more lack of consistency / stability

As soon as Bloodshot #0 came out and established that the host body of Bloodshot came from a black soldier (in the 90's) ... all of a sudden the PRESENT day Bloodshot starting taking on black characteristics in his features from many of the artists that started drawing him.

Rivera sort of drew him as black as well ... but then Kay indicated that this was his true face. Which is some white dude. I would assume that this Ray fellow is the current host body.

I guess it could be assumed that the Black soldier's host body died at some point ... and they transferred the nanite blood to a new host body. Every time a host body gets killed off they transfer the blood to another dying person/soldier .. and they become the new bloodshot.

Ray might be the 4th? 5th? 10th? 100th? different host body. Each host body now has the memories/souls of all the previous host bodies

what makes it even more confusing is that we know that there are IMPLANTED memories as well. Memories that are COMPLETELY fabricated/FALSE in the mix as well (thats established in the early run of Bloodshot).

So Bloodshot has the souls of dead host bodies + hundred of FALSE memories ... no wonder the guy is F*** UP

The different looks/facial features of Bloodshot could be explained away by
1) Artist interpretation
2) Bloodshot can change appearance ... so perhaps he makes little changes in his appearances of whichever soul/or false memory decides to suit his fancy

In issue 25 there was the story where a Bloodshot returns home to his wife. I believe this was the Ray Garrison Bloodshot.

WAIT

WAIT

I JUST REALISED

Bloodshot is now officially a Mr Garrison. Pansexuality and sex changes in his future?

[ShadowTuga]

I read this book an hour ago. I am still thinking about it permanently.
Just a HUGE round of to everyone involved in the making. THIS WAS PHENOMENAL COMIC BOOK STUFF!!!!!
I too was a fan of Kay anf felt the character had way more potential than what we were given but I am already rooting for this new kid. And Bloodshot... Reborn. NOW IT MAKES SENSE!!!!!

So happy for Valiant that this is a success but also a GREAT story. 10/10.

[David_Cody]

The girl hidden in the box was reminiscent of River Tam at the end of the pilot episode of Firefly.

[wwise03]

I thought it was a fantastic book. I was very upset to see Kay go. She was actually becoming my favorite Valiant character. I'm afraid that is a mistake Valiant will not be able to correct.

[greg]

Did we ever determine who told young Kay the Princess, White Knight, and Mr. Flay story?

They had knowledge of the future... but if they had knowledge of the future, they would know that she dies anyway.

[Phoenix8008]

Did we ever determine who told young Kay the Princess, White Knight, and Mr. Flay story?

They had knowledge of the future... but if they had knowledge of the future, they would know that she dies anyway.

I thought it was just a story she heard and 'Mr. Flay' just took that form because it was ingrained in her psyche.