Archer & Armstrong #20 Discussion

[pixierosa]

I think you guys are right about the Mary Marie thing, though I end up wondering abut the wibbly wobbly timey wimey part of her existing both current and future self. And what's her purpose? Why go to the hotel? Unless she was forced, but if so, then was she forced back from the future or did she voluntarily come back then end up in the Lizard King's clutches. His group is/was a part of the sect, just like MM's.

If she is the mother, by now she should be aware she is pregnant. How long was the separation between A&A? It was months, wasn't it? She should be showing...

That was Sid Vicious on the left hand side, JMatt.

Anyway, I really enjoyed the book. Good fun.

[dornwolf]

Think we have Will Smith and his son... lower left corner of the panel where A&A first enter the Fametorium.

I think you're right. Nice catch.

Isn't everybody that's in there supposed to be 'dead'? Will Smith and son aren't dead last I heard.

They aren't but there careers are.

[kjjohanson]

I think you guys are right about the Mary Marie thing, though I end up wondering abut the wibbly wobbly timey wimey part of her existing both current and future self. And what's her purpose? Why go to the hotel? Unless she was forced, but if so, then was she forced back from the future or did she voluntarily come back then end up in the Lizard King's clutches. His group is/was a part of the sect, just like MM's.

If she is the mother, by now she should be aware she is pregnant. How long was the separation between A&A? It was months, wasn't it? She should be showing...

I imagine that, being able to time travel, she would have ended up there some time back and will be much older when the reveal comes, assuming all is as it is being speculated here.

[kjjohanson]

I've got to look back at the beginning of #1 and the first 0 issue; was Nergal mentioned in either of those or was this the first mention in this issue?

[greg]

If she is the mother, by now she should be aware she is pregnant. How long was the separation between A&A? It was months, wasn't it? She should be showing...

Mary-Maria understands how to use time-arcs. She could be any age... because she could have spent any amount of time in another time/place.

So, there might be an elderly Mary-Maria in the hotel.

For all we know, Mary could have chosen to have her baby somewhere around 2,000 years ago in a manger in Bethlehem.

[bygranddesign]

If she is the mother, by now she should be aware she is pregnant. How long was the separation between A&A? It was months, wasn't it? She should be showing...

Mary-Maria understands how to use time-arcs. She could be any age... because she could have spent any amount of time in another time/place.

So, there might be an elderly Mary-Maria in the hotel.

For all we know, Mary could have chosen to have her baby somewhere around 2,000 years ago in a manger in Bethlehem.

+1 I'm betting on her being elderly and Archer not immediately recognizing right away that its Mary-Maria

This idea just hit me like a brick to the head.

One of the things that I don't like about the Mary-Maria and Armstrong being Archer's parents idea is that Archer looks nothing like Armstrong .. BUT there IS an Anni-Padda brother that does have some resemblance to Archer.

What if Mary-Maria in her Time Arc adventures met up with another time traveler?

What if Archer is actually the son of Mary-Maria and Ivar

This would make for a great lead in to and premise for an Ivar series

[BugsySig]

If it does turn out that MM is Archer's mother, it could be left up in the air who the father is. Many would speculate it is Aram because of what happened in the Faraway, but that's not a guarantee.

If Archer is infinite, as Kay saw him, is it possible he's his own father? A little Futurama-style time paradox?

[bygranddesign]

Just skimming through issue #12 and #15 (such great reads) - But there is definitely a feeling that Archer is related somehow. Obviously Ivar knows detailed info about Archer's life (and is shocked and upset about the idea that Faith might be taken) - You could chalk it up as Ivar knowing these details because Archer is such an important person in the future .. but I get the feeling its something more personal like that is his daughter-in-law they just took.

In the Beer crawl through time .. Ivar laughs at Archer's angsty attitude and says that him and Armstrong couldn't be more alike "if you were Brothers". I think this is FVL planting seeds of a family relationship. I think Armstrong acts like an Uncle ... Ivar is standoff-ish but protective ..like a Father would be. Ivar talks about the Prometheans being after him. Ivar knowing every future possibility might feel it is better not to tell Archer that he is his father for fear that the Prometheans or other enemies might also find out - and harm his son or use his son to get to him.

If the Collective Consciousness (akashic record) is more than something mystical - perhaps technological. Perhaps it was Ivar who with his heightened intelligence and the ability to travel to the end of time that created this collective consciousness and made it so Archer, his son, was the only one with the ability to download from it as a way of protecting him.

Another reason I'd rather it not be Armstrong and Mary-Maria as the parents is that he was conceived through a one night stand - that Armstrong regrets and feels terrible about - there is a sense of irony to that but also a sense of trashiness. I think it would be more suitable if Archer is the result of some real love affair between Ivar and Mary-Maria.

[pixierosa]

If it does turn out that MM is Archer's mother, it could be left up in the air who the father is. Many would speculate it is Aram because of what happened in the Faraway, but that's not a guarantee.

If Archer is infinite, as Kay saw him, is it possible he's his own father? A little Futurama-style time paradox?

Midichlorians?

[kjjohanson]

One of the things that I don't like about the Mary-Maria and Armstrong being Archer's parents idea is that Archer looks nothing like Armstrong .. BUT there IS an Anni-Padda brother that does have some resemblance to Archer.

Never mind resemblance to each other; I kinda think that since the brothers are Sumerian, they would be darker. Granted that Gilad and Aram both have dark hair, but there both pretty white, and Ivar looks more Northern European than Middle Eastern.

[kjjohanson]

One of the issues I have is that VEI is lacking in female characters, and while Mary Maria appeared to be a bright spot in that regard, if all plays out as appears to be the indication here, that means she was basically just a tool to tell one of the male character's story.

[Baramos]

Lot of comic book references in that first part, too (Thor, TMNT, Silver Surfer, etc.). Pop culture overload.

Jim Morrison as the villain is truly bizarre. Also the whole Hotel California thing...

Anyway, it seems like since they can never leave, they might as well....



...take it easy

[jmatt]

I've got to look back at the beginning of #1 and the first 0 issue; was Nergal mentioned in either of those or was this the first mention in this issue?

Nergal was a glint in the eye of as not yet hired Greg Pak when those books rolled out.

[Baramos]

I don't think Nergal was ever mentioned even once until Eternal Warrior #1.

Anyway, in writing a review for this, I'm trying to put together a cheat sheet. I've taken stuff from this topic and combined it with my own knowledge but I'm still stuck on a few.

Here's what I got so far:

Page 1 (top to bottom): Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley, Kurt Cobain, James Dean, The Notorious B.I.G., and Jim Morrison.

Page 2. Some of these are comic book and cartoon characters, as they are outside Grumman’s Chinese Theater with many costumed characters.
(Left to Right): Thor, X-O Manowar, [Unsure] (Guy looks like he's in a burger costume, has a suit and tie?), [Unsure] (Bald fat man, red shirt), Silver Surfer, [Unsure] (black haired bearded man in trenchcoat. Actually, looks like a non-fat Armstrong, maybe?, Aang (Avatar: The Last Airbender), John Wayne (as Rooster Cogburn), Bruce Lee, Family Guy family, Marilyn Monroe, Leonardo/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. The car A&A are in is then approached by Elvis.

Page 3. Tupac Shakur and Christopher Wallace aka Biggie Smalls/The Notorious B.I.G.

Page 4. Not sure whether to count this one. “Percy Vale” is a parody of Justin Bieber. The character on the page is not an actual celebrity, though.

Page 5. Will and Jaden Smith.

Page 9. Jim Morrison.

Page 18. Kurt Cobain.

Page 19: 2Pac and Biggie again.

Page 21: Hoo boy. Ahem.

Wow.

Okay.

(Left to Right)

[Unsure] (guy at the VERY LEFT, half cut-off. Has black clothes, knees in pants are missing), Ritchie Valens, Bruce and Brandon Lee (they are the men hugging as if they haven’t seen each other for a long time. Awww…). Ronnie Van Zant and Steve Gaines (Lynyrd Skynyrd), Buddy Holly, Janice Joplin, Jeff Hanneman (Slayer), John Lennon, Freddie Mercury, Andre the Giant, Jimi Hendrix, Michael Jackson, Amy Winehouse.

[jmatt]

[Unsure] (guy at the VERY LEFT, half cut-off. Has black clothes, knees in pants are missing), Ritchie Valens, Bruce and Brandon Lee (they are the men hugging as if they haven’t seen each other for a long time. Awww…). Ronnie Van Zant and Steve Gaines (Lynyrd Skynyrd), Buddy Holly, Janice Joplin, Jeff Hanneman (Slayer), John Lennon, Freddie Mercury, Andre the Giant, Jimi Hendrix, Michael Jackson, Amy Winehouse.

Guy on the left is Sid Vicious.

[apainter]

Not sure why the cover has Morrison dressed like a Navy Admiral. You would think more like a (lizard) king.

Perhaps it's another nod to the father/son theme? Morrison's father was Rear Admiral George Morrison.

Nergal was a glint in the eye of as not yet hired Greg Pak when those books rolled out.

True that Nergal hadn't been introduced to the Valiant U, but as a point of not-so-relevant trivia, Nergal (and the Anni-Padda's deity, Shamash) were actual gods in Mesopotamian lore.

About the MM/Archer relationship: if she is his mother, that also makes MM's ruse to get into Area 51 read like a bit of foreshadowing.

Art

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

What if she's not his mom....? Boy, we'd all feel silly.
But I agree with a previous post, anyone intentionally NOT reading this title, I don't understand. It's truly amazing.

[jmatt]

Perhaps it's another nod to the father/son theme? Morrison's father was Rear Admiral George Morrison.

I knew he grew up on military bases; didn't know his father was an admiral. But that's kind of a weird nod, if so.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

You know what, I was just thinking about Archer #0. He was just a regular kid, and was told that there was an accident with his parents. Shortly after the search is called off for him. Do you think those are the actions of super heroes? Or trained assassins, or immortals? Hmmmmm..... could we be on the wrong trail all along?

[pixierosa]

You know what, I was just thinking about Archer #0. He was just a regular kid, and was told that there was an accident with his parents. Shortly after the search is called off for him. Do you think those are the actions of super heroes? Or trained assassins, or immortals? Hmmmmm..... could we be on the wrong trail all along?

I've been wondering about that myself. I suppose he could have been raised by someone else on behalf of Mary Maria, who knew he would eventually end up in the Archer family with her, so there wasn't an extended search/media blitz for him when he disappeared.

[lorddunlow]

Boy, I love this book. Also glad to read this topic - I missed a lot of the celebrity references.

[BugsySig]

You know what, I was just thinking about Archer #0. He was just a regular kid, and was told that there was an accident with his parents. Shortly after the search is called off for him. Do you think those are the actions of super heroes? Or trained assassins, or immortals? Hmmmmm..... could we be on the wrong trail all along?

I've been wondering about that myself. I suppose he could have been raised by someone else on behalf of Mary Maria, who knew he would eventually end up in the Archer family with her, so there wasn't an extended search/media blitz for him when he disappeared.

Or Mary-Mary knew this herself and allowed his destiny to be fulfilled.

[ilzuccone]

Here's something nobody has thought of... Dolly the sheep is his mother and the goat is his father! Making archer Q and U's brother. I smell cross over!

[kjjohanson]

You know what, I was just thinking about Archer #0. He was just a regular kid, and was told that there was an accident with his parents. Shortly after the search is called off for him. Do you think those are the actions of super heroes? Or trained assassins, or immortals? Hmmmmm..... could we be on the wrong trail all along?

I've been wondering about that myself. I suppose he could have been raised by someone else on behalf of Mary Maria, who knew he would eventually end up in the Archer family with her, so there wasn't an extended search/media blitz for him when he disappeared.

But… but… that one cover shows him on the milk carton! You mean that's inaccurate?

[BugsySig]

You know what, I was just thinking about Archer #0. He was just a regular kid, and was told that there was an accident with his parents. Shortly after the search is called off for him. Do you think those are the actions of super heroes? Or trained assassins, or immortals? Hmmmmm..... could we be on the wrong trail all along?

I've been wondering about that myself. I suppose he could have been raised by someone else on behalf of Mary Maria, who knew he would eventually end up in the Archer family with her, so there wasn't an extended search/media blitz for him when he disappeared.

But… but… that one cover shows him on the milk carton! You mean that's inaccurate?

And it shows him as an infant, even though he's an adolescent when PRS takes him...