Shadowman: End Times #1 Discussion

sonicdan · Post by **sonicdan** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:36 pm

I enjoyed the flashbacks and the parallels between Jack and his father in their efforts to control the Loa.
Alyssa plays a major part as she meets Punk Mambo for the first time. She's in over her head but driven by her desire to help Jack.
The art by Valentine De Landro is not as textured as Roberto De La Torre's but is serviceable to the story. Colors by David Baron enhance the mood.
The book is atmospheric and creepy like a Shadowman comic should be. The issue ends with a major revelation about what we thought happened in the 1st issue of Shadowman.
It will be interesting to see what motivations are at play and what the bigger picture looks like. I'm looking forward to the next issue and for the promised return of Master Darque.
DAN

sonicdan · Post by **sonicdan** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:43 pm

Oh, I almost forgot:

DAN

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:21 pm

Do you rob banks for a living?

So jealous.

valiantkurt · Post by **valiantkurt** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:26 pm

I can't wait to get out of work and go get this issue. I'm really looking forward to the parallels between Jack and his father.

spiderland · Post by **spiderland** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:37 pm

I thought this was a pretty good issue with some slightly corny writing and not altogether that much different from the Shadowman ongoing it replaced despite claims of a new direction. Also Punk Mambo.

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:57 pm

spiderland wrote:I thought this was a pretty good issue with some slightly corny writing and not altogether that much different from the Shadowman ongoing it replaced despite claims of a new direction. Also Punk Mambo.

That is my fear. I think VEI wanted to keep the numbering and push #13 as the big jumping on point, but #11 and #12 were such a disaster, and #13 didn't bring in enough new readership. So they went with the Mini as a draw for new/lapsed readers. Ultimately with Milligan having taken over 4 issues earlier, what is it that really makes End Times special?

That being said, the issue was OK. The art was decent, but no where near as dynamic as RDLT or as clean as Zircher. The story was fine, but I'm not sure how it fits with what we saw of Josiah in Deadside way back in issue #3. I trust Milligan to reconcile this as he basically has for everything else thus far, something I give him high praise for doing, but I hope the explanation comes sooner rather than later so I can stop trying to figure it our as I'm reading.

Shade · Post by **Shade** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:18 pm

I'm a bit behind on Shadowman but I really liked this issue. Peter Milligan is tops at character work IMO.

I gave it a 9/10. Good week for Valiant with this and RAI.

pixierosa · Post by **pixierosa** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:37 pm

I liked it. I'm sure Milligan has it all worked out, and I have theories of my own as to how the ending came about, if it can be trusted to be true and not some perversion of truth told by the loa.

I prefer RDLT's detailed artwork, but I think this fits with the gritty and turbulent theme.

Those abettors. Eeesh. Not exactly a likable group. Dox must have been the light to their dark.

hunter_peterson · Post by **hunter_peterson** » Thu May 01, 2014 10:32 am

This was a good issue, but a bit too first-issue-y for a continuing reader. Milligan brings you up to speed on Shadowman's status quo and backstory very well (I felt weird about the intimacy of Alyssa and Jack's relationship, but then figured there must have been a time jump and was relatively okay with its sudden escalation), but there's a comprehensive recap page anyway, so it felt slow. Harbinger Wars had a similar problem but addressed it better with the PRS debriefing framing sequence, meaning the characters involved in the actual story all got to do stuff immediately instead of puttering about until we've caught up.

That said, I imagine that was a wise decision for a mini with a big number one on it intended for new readers, and I still enjoyed the issue a lot. It was cool to see Josiah is human too, given how he's been built up. And the Abettors are still sinister and that's great! This arc should be great soon.

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Thu May 01, 2014 4:56 pm

The Jack vs. The Loa was a central theme in the previous arc ... And I was hoping to see this title move into new territory with End Times with perhaps the Jack Vs. Loa being more of an underlying theme. But it seems like it will be central to this story which makes it feel a little like Deja Vu.

The Josiah return is an interesting wrinkle .. but I'm hoping this surprise fits into the continuity. Like Bugsy said, we saw what looked like his spirit in the deadside already in the first arc.

I loved the interactions between Jack and Alyssa and seeing their relationship progress. I think this was Milligan's most sharply written issue ... until the end.

The end was a disappointment - Jack finds out his father is supposedly alive and not the man he thought he was - and he takes it out on Alyssa?

Just when we are getting used to the idea of Jack and Alyssa as a couple - they fight at the end with Jack being his typical jerky self? This is how you want to make Jack more likable? Wouldn't it have been more moving and enjoyable if Jack could have taken comfort in Alyssa? Are we such lovers of conflict and macho manliness that we can't see Jack be vulnerable? This is a girl that has gone above and beyond to try and help him - clearly loves him yet we can't go in the direction of Jack and Alyssa finding comfort in each other and figuring this out together? Instead we get more relationship conflict with Jack once again acting unreasonable. And I understand the Loa could be influencing Jack's behavior .. but the dialogue was all his.. not the black Loa dialogue which would have at least been more interesting and explained his dickishness. And the getting angry in the middle of the street pose and cursing your father was a bit cheesy.

Having said that, overall it was a pretty solid read. The art wasn't great, I'm not a huge fan of the way Jack and Alyssa were drawn but it worked for the most part. David Baron's colors elevated the art and as usual was brilliant in creating the perfect mood for this issue.

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Thu May 01, 2014 9:46 pm

I'm not feeling this title. I am growing weary of trying to figure out if I like it. RDT is missed.

It's a #1 issue but starts off "Our story so far..." and picks up exactly as if it was the next issue. Okay, there was a page or two of set-up for new readers but I can see no reason that this book should be a first issue.

The book just always feels up in the air, like it can't establish a character foundation from which to proceed. There is no solid ground, everyone is in conflict with everyone else and it changes with every issue.

Jack's relationship with Alyssa. One issue she's selling him out to be killed, two issues later they're giggling puppyloves, and by the end of the issue Jack's walking out on her rakishly.

Jack and his Loa. "I'm in control", "No, I'm in control!" Wash, rinse, repeat.

Punk Mambo. Helping Jack, but spraying acid in Alyssa's face. Then helps Alyssa.

Alyssa and the Abettors. Jack and the Abettors. Friends? Enemies?

Josiah. Dead, not dead. Jack. Wants to live, wants to die.

I don't mind conflict, it's the basis of a good story. But nothing stays in place long enough for me to feel comfortable with the title's underlying foundation. It is just constantly juggling everything back into the air.

chriskay99 · Post by **chriskay99** » Thu May 01, 2014 10:45 pm

I liked the art in this issue, and thought it was pretty good overall. Like others said, not as gritty as RDLT but better than those fill in issues. I was confused by the panels where Jack stands in front of the 18-wheeler. I'm assuming he became intangible somehow and the truck passed through him, but it wasn't super clear in the artwork.

Newton · Post by **Newton** » Fri May 02, 2014 8:28 am

I am still a bit muddy on how Shadowman has been handled in VEI, but it is moving in the right direction for sure.

The last few issues have started fleshing out the mythology. I am still waiting for the mythology to be tied neatly with good characterization which is what the original did so well. In the original Shadowman, you really identified with Jack and felt like you were taking this journey with him into an incredibly strange place. Right now there are a lot of great elements being introduced, but it still needs brought together.

Looking forward to Shadowman hopefully becoming a favorite Valiant title for me again. It is near and dear to my heart because it was the first Valiant title I picked up and it blew my mind

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Fri May 02, 2014 9:18 pm

Okay, feeling less cranky today. I like what Milligan has done in the last few issues... but I still wish some things would settle down and find a groove.

Spylocke · Post by **Spylocke** » Sun May 04, 2014 2:04 pm

I hate to say it but I think it might be a good time to introduce another character to the Shadowman legacy. As much a fan as I was of the VH1 Jack Boniface this new one doesn't really grab me. A new Shadowman (or woman) would give a valid reason to start a new first issue without any continuity mess as well as giving us a sense of danger knowing that main characters can die.

Peter Milligan has brought some interesting ideas to the title but I'm starting to feel like it's too little too late. It's sad but I want to like Shadowman more than I actually like it.

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Sun May 04, 2014 2:46 pm

Spylocke wrote:I hate to say it but I think it might be a good time to introduce another character to the Shadowman legacy. As much a fan as I was of the VH1 Jack Boniface this new one doesn't really grab me. A new Shadowman (or woman) would give a valid reason to start a new first issue without any continuity mess as well as giving us a sense of danger knowing that main characters can die.

Peter Milligan has brought some interesting ideas to the title but I'm starting to feel like it's too little too late. It's sad but I want to like Shadowman more than I actually like it.

I hear ya.

I think there will be a lengthy hiatus after this mini - the fact that Shadowman has such a long legacy to uncover means this might be a good opportunity to start exploring that.

How about a 12 part limited series starting January 2015 called Shadowman: Legacy that's split into four 3-part arcs that starts where issue #10 ends (Marius and Sandria story continued) all the way to the year 4001. It would be an opportunity to explore the history (and future) of Shadowman extensively and it would be fun to have it go all the way to 4001. Perhaps have an underlying thread that goes through each one of the stories - but not Master Darque - some different threat/new immortal enemy that finally gets dealt with by 4001 Shadowman.

Hmm.. fan fiction idea #2,345,678,125

Phoenix8008 · Post by **Phoenix8008** » Sun May 04, 2014 4:09 pm

bygranddesign wrote:
Spylocke wrote:I hate to say it but I think it might be a good time to introduce another character to the Shadowman legacy. As much a fan as I was of the VH1 Jack Boniface this new one doesn't really grab me. A new Shadowman (or woman) would give a valid reason to start a new first issue without any continuity mess as well as giving us a sense of danger knowing that main characters can die.

Peter Milligan has brought some interesting ideas to the title but I'm starting to feel like it's too little too late. It's sad but I want to like Shadowman more than I actually like it.
I hear ya.

I think there will be a lengthy hiatus after this mini - the fact that Shadowman has such a long legacy to uncover means this might be a good opportunity to start exploring that.

How about a 12 part limited series starting January 2015 called Shadowman: Legacy that's split into four 3-part arcs that starts where issue #10 ends (Marius and Sandria story continued) all the way to the year 4001. It would be an opportunity to explore the history (and future) of Shadowman extensively and it would be fun to have it go all the way to 4001. Perhaps have an underlying thread that goes through each one of the stories - but not Master Darque - some different threat/new immortal enemy that finally gets dealt with by 4001 Shadowman. Hmm.. fan fiction idea #2,345,678,125

This would be pretty cool. At the least, I'm starting to agree that maybe Jack dying at the end of the End Times might be the best solution. Bring in another shadowman (or shadowoman?). One already controlled by the abettors? Or Josiah picks up the reins again? We'll see in a couple months I guess.

Spylocke · Post by **Spylocke** » Sun May 04, 2014 6:02 pm

I like that idea, bygranddesign. I'm keen on the idea of hero legacies outlasting the actual characters. A shadowman in 4001 could be really interesting mix of magic and science fiction. I could definitely see a resurgence in the practice of voodoo in 4001 given what I have read in Eternal Warrior since things seem to be so rough.
There could be some interesting flourishes on voodoo tradition like digital veves and nanotech zombie powder.

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Sun May 04, 2014 7:19 pm

Spylocke wrote:I like that idea, bygranddesign. I'm keen on the idea of hero legacies outlasting the actual characters. A shadowman in 4001 could be really interesting mix of magic and science fiction. I could definitely see a resurgence in the practice of voodoo in 4001 given what I have read in Eternal Warrior since things seem to be so rough.
There could be some interesting flourishes on voodoo tradition like digital veves and nanotech zombie powder.

Niice.. I like it!!!

A cocktail of old school voodoo mixed with blood infused nanite's with a hint of nuclear wasteland fallout - sounds tasty!

Where's Dino at? We got Shadowman planned out for 2015.

MrsChiclo ACTIONSCIENTIST · Mon May 05, 2014 11:28 am

Spylocke wrote:I like that idea, bygranddesign. I'm keen on the idea of hero legacies outlasting the actual characters. A shadowman in 4001 could be really interesting mix of magic and science fiction. I could definitely see a resurgence in the practice of voodoo in 4001 given what I have read in Eternal Warrior since things seem to be so rough.
There could be some interesting flourishes on voodoo tradition like digital veves and nanotech zombie powder.

It's probably just the Nergal cult, but I am wondering if the Cult of Death could be related to Shadowman. Their face paint really seemed Shadowman-esque to me.

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:18 pm

I need to go back and re-read from the beginning, because the Alyssa/Jack relationship seems really forced, and I don't recall there being any sort of hints at that at the beginning. I liked the idea that a major character in the series could be a woman who isn't a love interest.

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Mon May 05, 2014 9:17 pm

kjjohanson wrote:I need to go back and re-read from the beginning, because the Alyssa/Jack relationship seems really forced, and I don't recall there being any sort of hints at that at the beginning. I liked the idea that a major character in the series could be a woman who isn't a love interest.

Early on, back when they were fighting Darque or Twist in Deadside, at one point Jack is sorta defeated and Alyssa "revives" him with a kiss, ala The Matrix. So there's always been a love interest there... but it's just been helter-skelter. It's one of the things I wish they would settle on -- pick a direction for it and leave it be for awhile.

BugsySig · Post by **BugsySig** » Tue May 06, 2014 7:17 am

jmatt wrote:
kjjohanson wrote:I need to go back and re-read from the beginning, because the Alyssa/Jack relationship seems really forced, and I don't recall there being any sort of hints at that at the beginning. I liked the idea that a major character in the series could be a woman who isn't a love interest.
Early on, back when they were fighting Darque or Twist in Deadside, at one point Jack is sorta defeated and Alyssa "revives" him with a kiss, ala The Matrix. So there's always been a love interest there... but it's just been helter-skelter. It's one of the things I wish they would settle on -- pick a direction for it and leave it be for awhile.

I never saw it as forced. Alyssa obviously cared for Jack from the beginning when they went through the initial attacks by Twist and in the Deadside. Was there a bit of a sudden declaration of love? I can see that, but considering she thought Jack loving someone would help him control the Loa, and thereby save his life, it didn't seem unreasonable. Especially after issue #10 and the emphasis on Marius and Sandria's love, that plot point seem to make sense to take off from there.

agent_graves · Post by **agent_graves** » Tue May 06, 2014 11:19 am

jmatt wrote:I'm not feeling this title. I am growing weary of trying to figure out if I like it. RDT is missed.

It's a #1 issue but starts off "Our story so far..." and picks up exactly as if it was the next issue. Okay, there was a page or two of set-up for new readers but I can see no reason that this book should be a first issue.

The book just always feels up in the air, like it can't establish a character foundation from which to proceed. There is no solid ground, everyone is in conflict with everyone else and it changes with every issue.

Jack's relationship with Alyssa. One issue she's selling him out to be killed, two issues later they're giggling puppyloves, and by the end of the issue Jack's walking out on her rakishly.

Jack and his Loa. "I'm in control", "No, I'm in control!" Wash, rinse, repeat.

Punk Mambo. Helping Jack, but spraying acid in Alyssa's face. Then helps Alyssa.

Alyssa and the Abettors. Jack and the Abettors. Friends? Enemies?

Josiah. Dead, not dead. Jack. Wants to live, wants to die.

I don't mind conflict, it's the basis of a good story. But nothing stays in place long enough for me to feel comfortable with the title's underlying foundation. It is just constantly juggling everything back into the air.

QFT... My thoughts exactly...

ilzuccone · Post by **ilzuccone** » Tue May 06, 2014 11:40 am

kjjohanson wrote:I need to go back and re-read from the beginning, because the Alyssa/Jack relationship seems really forced, and I don't recall there being any sort of hints at that at the beginning. I liked the idea that a major character in the series could be a woman who isn't a love interest.

This all the way. Alyssa is an uninteresting character. she needs to be more than a lovesick girl. The punk mambo is more interesting than her.

all things considered i've enjoyed the last few issues of shadow man.

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