Harbinger Question (due to my faulty memory)

OmenSpirits.com · Post by **OmenSpirits.com** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:15 pm

Did they ever say how Harbingers were born? How they got their powers?

(I've tottally forgotten if they'd said during the series):atomic:

Thanks.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:23 pm

Harbingers are usually born a little different. Maybe they're just a little stronger than your average guy (like Torque) or are abnormally good hackers (like Ax) but nothing superhuman.

But if their mind is touched by an Omega Harbinger like Sting or Harada their psychic power is activated and then they get their superpowers (flight, superstrength, the ability to control computers, etc). The abilities are supposed to be completely psychic in nature, nothing that would require a physical mutation (though that rule is broken eventually).

BTW, the two Omega Harbingers had their full powers just appear naturally in childhood and have the full range of psychic abilities like Jean Grey.

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:29 pm

I forget where it was (Secrets of Valiant Universe?), but I read somewhere that Omega Harbingers were supposed to have access to all Harbinger abilities. Of course based on the books themselves that didn't seem to be the case. At least, they didn't use anything close to all of them, just the psionic ones.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:41 pm

jcdenton wrote:I forget where it was (Secrets of Valiant Universe?), but I read somewhere that Omega Harbingers were supposed to have access to all Harbinger abilities. Of course based on the books themselves that didn't seem to be the case. At least, they didn't use anything close to all of them, just the psionic ones.

Visitor (an older Sting from the future) and Heydrich (once he simulated the Omega power) could use powers that we didn't see Harada and Sting use. Maybe it has something to with the level of mastery of the power.

jmpet · Post by **jmpet** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:59 pm

Deleted

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:18 pm

jmpet wrote:Jim Shooter modeled "The Harbingers" after "The X-Men" in verso. The X-Men were rich, the Harbingers were poor. The X-Men lived in a mansion, Harbingers were homeless. And in X-Men the bad guy usually crawls out of the slime, with Harbinger the bad guy had all the wealth, power and resources. So where do Harbingers come from? The same place mutants do.

That's the best on topic post I've seen on this board is quite some time, and that includes my own. Thanks Joe.

OmenSpirits.com · Post by **OmenSpirits.com** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:32 pm

jmpet wrote:Jim Shooter modeled "The Harbingers" after "The X-Men" in verso. The X-Men were rich, the Harbingers were poor. The X-Men lived in a mansion, Harbingers were homeless. And in X-Men the bad guy usually crawls out of the slime, with Harbinger the bad guy had all the wealth, power and resources. So where do Harbingers come from? The same place mutants do.

But which did you enjoy reading about? Which had better charaters, dimensionally speaking.

Chuck · Post by **Chuck** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:45 pm

I recall Harada had couple's matched to produce Harbinger offsprings, such as Faith (Zepplin).

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:53 pm

Too me almost everything that made the book great became unraveled and fell apart after issue 25. It was a real slap in the face to all those involved with making Harbinger great in the first place.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:45 am

Chuck wrote:I recall Harada had couple's matched to produce Harbinger offsprings, such as Faith (Zepplin).

Blast it!

I was trying to ignore that (and everything else that happened starting with Harbinger 23 and on).

I'm also trying to forget that the Lost Land is made out of necromatic energy and that Master Darque lead a group of zombies in song in an issue of Archer & Armstrong

. I wish I had a "flashy thingy" from Men in Black so I could make myself forget most of the post-Shooter Valiant comics

.

davidb · Post by **davidb** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:01 pm

Todd Luck wrote:
Chuck wrote:I recall Harada had couple's matched to produce Harbinger offsprings, such as Faith (Zepplin).
I'm also trying to forget that the Lost Land is made out of necromatic energy and that Master Darque lead a group of zombies in song in an issue of Archer & Armstrong

Thanks for reminding me of that. </sarcasm> Definitely the low point of Darque's career as a villain.

jmpet · Post by **jmpet** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:40 pm

Deleted

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:25 am

Another small thing that set Harbingers apart from mutants, meta-humans, ect was that their children would inherit the same power that the parents had (assuming that power got activated). I used to always be mystified at how random "mutations" where from most other companies.

Strannik · Post by **Strannik** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:57 pm

According to the early issues of the Solar, Harbingers emerged after Phil Seleski recreated his universe from scratch. Although he mostly managed to put it back together the way it was, there were a few diffrences, one of which was that suddenly, certain human beings had psionic abilities. This might have been retconned post-Unity.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:37 pm

Strannik wrote:According to the early issues of the Solar, Harbingers emerged after Phil Seleski recreated his universe from scratch. Although he mostly managed to put it back together the way it was, there were a few diffrences, one of which was that suddenly, certain human beings had psionic abilities. This might have been retconned post-Unity.

Yeah, that's basically it. Solar subconsciously effected reality creating all sorts of fantastic things through out history (Gilad, Geomancer, Harbingers, ect). This was one of the reasons Mothergod used as justification for whiping the whole thing out in Unity. It was never contradicted as far as I know. It was actually used as the basis for Unity 2000.

prismra · Post by **prismra** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:13 pm

Todd Luck wrote:
Strannik wrote:According to the early issues of the Solar, Harbingers emerged after Phil Seleski recreated his universe from scratch. Although he mostly managed to put it back together the way it was, there were a few diffrences, one of which was that suddenly, certain human beings had psionic abilities. This might have been retconned post-Unity.
Yeah, that's basically it. Solar subconsciously effected reality creating all sorts of fantastic things through out history (Gilad, Geomancer, Harbingers, ect). This was one of the reasons Mothergod used as justification for whiping the whole thing out in Unity. It was never contradicted as far as I know. It was actually used as the basis for Unity 2000.

Whoh dudes, what issue of Solar did this happen in? I thought he fell through his own wormhole to the past before the accident at the fusion reactor; not that he rebuilt the universe.... Help a brotha out.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:14 pm

prismra wrote:
Todd Luck wrote:
Strannik wrote:According to the early issues of the Solar, Harbingers emerged after Phil Seleski recreated his universe from scratch. Although he mostly managed to put it back together the way it was, there were a few diffrences, one of which was that suddenly, certain human beings had psionic abilities. This might have been retconned post-Unity.
Yeah, that's basically it. Solar subconsciously effected reality creating all sorts of fantastic things through out history (Gilad, Geomancer, Harbingers, ect). This was one of the reasons Mothergod used as justification for whiping the whole thing out in Unity. It was never contradicted as far as I know. It was actually used as the basis for Unity 2000.
Whoh dudes, what issue of Solar did this happen in? I thought he fell through his own wormhole to the past before the accident at the fusion reactor; not that he rebuilt the universe.... Help a brotha out.

Their were references to it in Unity, the big one was when Geoff mentioned it while talking to Mother God in Eternal Warrior 2. That was one of the ways Phil "screwed up" reality in Erica's opinion. It was mentioned again in Unity 2000 #2 and was pretty much the whole basis of the miniseries.

prismra · Post by **prismra** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:08 am

hold on....

<gets Unity TPB>

Geoff: "Yeah, he accidentally changed some stuff. If it weren't for him there probably wouldn't be guys like Gilad or Geomancers or you!"

Ok.

This confused the HELL out of me the last time I read Unity 'cause I don't ever remember what other issues this was mentioned in. When did solar talk about this? Anyone know what issue?

I mean, it makes sense now that you guys said all this (and it's frickin awesome I might add [thanks, Jim Shooter]) but I don't remember reading that anywhere. I thought he just went back in time. But he re-created the universe?

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:23 pm

prismra wrote:hold on....

<gets Unity TPB>

Geoff: "Yeah, he accidentally changed some stuff. If it weren't for him there probably wouldn't be guys like Gilad or Geomancers or you!"

Ok.

This confused the HELL out of me the last time I read Unity 'cause I don't ever remember what other issues this was mentioned in. When did solar talk about this? Anyone know what issue?

I mean, it makes sense now that you guys said all this (and it's frickin awesome I might add [thanks, Jim Shooter]) but I don't remember reading that anywhere. I thought he just went back in time. But he re-created the universe?

No, he altered it. Solar's origin is based on quantum psychics (which Shooter based Defiant Comics on). Basically, if there is some sort of disturbance on a quantum level, whatever you think (even on a subconscious leve) could become real.

That's why they refer to his reactor as a "dream machine" that he unwittingly created. It made a quantum disturbance that let Phil's mind effect reality. It granted him his subconscious wish, to become his favorite hero (Solar). Phil's mind may have effected reality throughout the multiverse then or it may have happened when he created the black hole. I'ld have to have access to my comics and see the exact dialog to know. Erica's machine in Unity worked on a similar principle. It would create a disturbance so big it would let her wish all reality away.

Sometimes Solar's arrival in Solar #1 is refered to as time travel, sometime it's refered to as him arriving in another reality similar to his own. Unity 2000 talks about this stuff a lot.

prismra · Post by **prismra** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:42 am

Oh well. This is a great excuse for me to read my Solar run again!

Manowar Class · Post by **Manowar Class** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:35 am

Good point! Re-Reading really helps!

I ran a short thread about reading Solar the "right" way with A&O and the regular run and how they rlated to one another with how A&O ended going right into Unity #0. Someone mentioned reading the A&O inserts as you read the regular Solar run and that helped me out.

Some of the continuity can get you in these time travel stories!

Have Fun

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:53 pm

On a somewhat related note, did you notice how the character of Dobson changed significantly between A&O and Solar (VH1)?

In A&O Seleski obviously thought very little of Dobson, hell he practically told him to his face that he was a loser and blamed him in large part for the Edgewater meltdown. The guy had his faults sure, but it was pretty obvious that Phil's assessment was highly biased and that Dobson wasn't nearly as bad as Phil made him out to be.

Fast forward to the VH1 version of Dobson, and suddenly he's every bit of the pathetic, sniveling loser that Phil thought he was in A&O.

At first I though it was just inconsistent writing on Shooter's part but if you think about it, it makes sense. If Seleski recreated the world but with subtle changes from his subconscious mind, the "recreated" versions of certain people might also be different, perhaps to conform to his own mental image of how they were.

Manowar Class · Post by **Manowar Class** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:04 pm

I caught that, but not immediately. Probably about the 3rd or 4th time I read A&O. That is a nice point.

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:05 pm

jcdenton wrote:On a somewhat related note, did you notice how the character of Dobson changed significantly between A&O and Solar (VH1)?

In A&O Seleski obviously thought very little of Dobson, hell he practically told him to his face that he was a loser and blamed him in large part for the Edgewater meltdown. The guy had his faults sure, but it was pretty obvious that Phil's assessment was highly biased and that Dobson wasn't nearly as bad as Phil made him out to be.

Fast forward to the VH1 version of Dobson, and suddenly he's every bit of the pathetic, sniveling loser that Phil thought he was in A&O.

At first I though it was just inconsistent writing on Shooter's part but if you think about it, it makes sense. If Seleski recreated the world but with subtle changes from his subconscious mind, the "recreated" versions of certain people might also be different, perhaps to conform to his own mental image of how they were.

An interesting thought but you also have to remember that the VH1 Dobson was a Dobson who hadn't had to deal with Phil as a god. Phil's seemingly tragic accident at the reactor and subsequent revelation that he's a god dramatically changed both Dobson and Erica's characters in A & O. You'ld drink less too if you not only found out there's a god but that he's also working in the same office as you

.

jcdenton · Post by **jcdenton** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:38 pm

An interesting thought but you also have to remember that the VH1 Dobson was a Dobson who hadn't had to deal with Phil as a god. Phil's seemingly tragic accident at the reactor and subsequent revelation that he's a god dramatically changed both Dobson and Erica's characters in A & O. You'ld drink less too if you not only found out there's a god but that's also working in the same office as you

Heh... that's a good point, and there may be some truth to that. But to me what really set apart A&O Dobson vs VH1 Dobson was his great comebacks and memorable one-liners. A character trait that was completely absent in VH1 Dobson.

"...and our cup runneth over."

"Hard to believe you took the hippocratic oath."

"GOOD scotch, Phil."

"Then I'm surprised you two didn't hit if off, Erica."

There's even a line that might hint at the reason for Dobson's change in personality: "Don't let your opinion of me shade your judgement".

I don't recall any similar quotes from Dobson's VH1 days even after the accident, and if he did have any that were as memorable, it only follows that I would have remembered them.