Harbinger #20 Discussion

[BugsySig]

Awesome issue (despite the lack of Renegades). @x was pretty awesome and the story is really good between how @x meets up with the Renegades and the (potential?) future of Harada.

So I suppose the several months Harada was in "Europe and the Middle East" refers to Unity? Thats the most logical explanation and fits Unity into the VU timeline between the events of Perfect Day and Resistance. But it also spoils any possibility of Unity succeeding in their new mission over in Unity #3.

[pixierosa]

Just a quick note to start. Such a good issue. I've been anxiously awaiting it, and this did not disappoint. I love the gamble that Ax took -- waiting for the Renegades to follow his crumb trail. I love how angry Harada is that the team was in L.A. the entire time.

The scenes with Stronghold and Ingrid... hearing about the aftermath. I think we are seeing the beginnings of what will eventually be a betrayal by Stronghold. He has doubts and is fighting those doubts. That can be used to sway him, if Harada's own behavior and hubris doesn't do the trick.

[coachjamie]

Definitely enjoyed the issue! Love the story and the artwork. I agree about Stronghold. Will most likely end with his death though. I picked up a bunch of back issues of Harbinger. Really enjoy the story.

[et061502]

I really liked this issue, it reminded me of some of the books from the old Valiant days. This has to be one of the latest books to really get me excited again to read Valiant.

[jmatt]

Great setup issue. So Harada's gonna take over the world? Big things ahead.

I wonder where he's gonna set up shop? I haven't read Unity 3 yet, so...

[Donovan]

Is it just me, or would Eugene Levy play @x in the movie adaptation?!?!

[bygranddesign]

LOVED this issue

I think this was my favorite issue of the week

Typical strong writing from Dysart as he ventures into an area where he is at his best - filling in those shades of gray in Harada's character and giving us all those nuggets of nuance that makes me both LOVE and HATE the man.

Great introduction to AX .. I loved the original character... this character is MUCH different but I hope he still ends up capturing the spirit of the original which was a total evil dick.

I missed the Renegades ... they mostly had a cameo appearance but Dysart brought them into the story at the end in an interesting way which tied everything together and got you hungry to see more.

A great opening issue to the arc ... can't wait to see where this is going... Perhaps to a huge confrontation between Peter and Harada a la the original in issue #25? (One of my FAVORITE issues of VH1)

[lorddunlow]

Thoroughly enjoyed this issue. Feels like we're getting back to pre-HW story quality. Looking forward to what happens with @x.

[Keith]

Amazing issue! Love the new Ax, and just could not believe the "game changing" aspects of the opening sequence! Can't wait to see how it all shakes out, though i must confess, I am a wee bit nervous about it. I'd love to see something so completely Earth shaking like Toyo Harada coming into power, but will they pull such a dramatic swerve?

Or will they Age of Ultron it... Shadowman and Zephyr travel back in time to prevent Harada from being born and the whole thing never takes place, but somehow weakens Time and Bloodshot gets chucked into the Ultimate Valiant Universe.

[Captain Craig]

This was a great read. I felt if nothing else it pulled back the curtain to the rest of the world that Harada is this twisted megalomaniac with visions of power as twisted as any evil dictator whose tried to have a perfect race or perfect society....in their image. Harada's image. Be like finding out Bill Gates, Donald Trump or Steve Jobs was evil(insert joke here I guess) but I hope I made the point. The citizenry of VEI know now that Harada is not to be trusted.

At what point now should Peter and the Renegades STOP wearing the Harbinger foundation logo. It was mentioned in the book to the point that the logo is associated with Harada, who is not to be trusted. I'd ditch those old uniforms(I understand the licensing issues of the real world btw). The Renegades need some type of publicity that shows them co-opting the symbol for good imo. They can't do that cause they've essentially be on the run and fighting Harada secretly, Las Vegas aside(which was covered up). Plus they are likely still wanted by authorities themselves....whole bank heist and all. Doubt the APB has gone away on that.

Great issue all around for sure!

[lorddunlow]

Or will they Age of Ultron it... Shadowman and Zephyr travel back in time to prevent Harada from being born and the whole thing never takes place, but somehow weakens Time and Bloodshot gets chucked into the Ultimate Valiant Universe.

[jmatt]

One quibble: the reference to the new shipping lanes opening up due to less pack ice.

There is record pack ice around both poles presently. If they're going to bother to pepper the books with "the world outside your window" it may as well, ya know, actually be factual stuff, not the fondest desires of the climate alarmists.

I'll leave it at that.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Very much enjoyed this issue. As great as Josh Dysart is, Clayton Henry is AMAZING. I'll read anything he draws. So effin' good!
More more more!

[Captain Craig]

One quibble: the reference to the new shipping lanes opening up due to less pack ice.

There is record pack ice around both poles presently. If they're going to bother to pepper the books with "the world outside your window" it may as well, ya know, actually be factual stuff, not the fondest desires of the climate alarmists.

I'll leave it at that.

Yeah, I picked up on that.

I love the characters at VALIANT but it's quite clear that VEI is liberal slanted group. The books have been peppered over the last three years with things to mock conservatives &/or republicans. Never mind the liberal philosophy as instituted in America is failing miserably right before our eyes and man made global warming alarmists are looking like the fools, not the other way around. Despite trying for the better part of the last decade to do so to anyone asking "what?" to their data.

[Donovan]

One quibble: the reference to the new shipping lanes opening up due to less pack ice.

There is record pack ice around both poles presently. If they're going to bother to pepper the books with "the world outside your window" it may as well, ya know, actually be factual stuff, not the fondest desires of the climate alarmists.

I'll leave it at that.

First of all, "the world outside your window" is VH1*. I don't believe that VEI has ever claimed that as a label for their stories.

Second, the opening caption -does- state that the first few pages take place in the future.

*Just googled "world outside..." and it turns out that it's from the New Universe? Didn't know that. Regardless, it was more Shooter's idea than VEI...

[AnthonyF]

Is it just me, or would Eugene Levy play @x in the movie adaptation?!?!

Ax has a great white man's fro!

I was looking forward to this issue too, Clayton's return! Wish he could become a regular.

The books actually seems to read better when renegades get a month or so off. Toyo is my favorite character, can never get enough Harada. Now we get to see him deal with repercussions of the last storyline.

I still say @x will turn out to be a psiot.

[jmatt]

Is it just me, or would Eugene Levy play @x in the movie adaptation?!?!

Perfect.

[Shadowman99]

...and man made global warming alarmists are looking like the fools, not the other way around. Despite trying for the better part of the last decade to do so to anyone asking "what?" to their data.

Whoa, what the Hell? Since when has there been definitive proof that climate change hasn't been induced by the actions of man?? This is one of the most serious issues that's currently affecting today's society, and I can't possibly accept this kind of statement that undermines the extremely urgent need for change in the actions of collective mankind in order to adapt to and mitigate the effects of climate change without seeing indisputable proof.

There's such a vast wealth of scientific data that identifies various forms of man-made pollution as heavily influential contributors to climate change that I can't even begin to imagine how your statement can possibly be an accurate reflection of society's general attitude toward the matter. Please, please tell me I've simply misunderstood what you've said here, because I sincerely hope that the alternative isn't applicable.


Anyway, thought this was a pretty good issue. Really dubious about the 'future' sequence in the book though, with Harada claiming dominance of the world. Ironically, that not only highlights his hypocrisy in denying Aric his forceful claim of a single country, but puts him on a whole new level above that by claiming his own sovereignty of the entire world. The reason that I'm dubious about this kind of massive change is that it will essentially result in distancing the VEI universe from our own reality, which begins to undermine the "VEI universe is set in our own reality" 'rule' that is currently a part of the way that VEI has crafted their universe.

That, and it could potentially be a huge challenge for the future creative teams at VEI, as it inevitably puts them much further down the road signposted 'creating an alternative modern-day reality in the same geographical plane of existence'. That is of course what they've already done with their universe, but to date none of the fantastical elements have been recognised by the universe's general public, and so it's plausible that these events could be happening in our reality, without our knowledge, as it is with the comics' average citizens. Bloodshot, pisots, immortals and the other facets have to date managed to operate without exposure to general collective recognition. Writing Harada as dictator of Earth and psiots acting in public consciousness considerably increases the distance between 'plausible' and 'fantasy' in comparison to where the mark is currently with the comics. Still, they're crafting a 4001 Earth timeline as we speak, which is of course a slightly different task, but it shows that it's clearly not beyond them. But making it resemble our (readers') actual reality whilst having an omnipotent planetary dictator and psiots living out in the open... Most likely harder to achieve convincingly I would think.

[Captain Craig]

There is no definitive proof, there are theories about man-made global warming.
You have paid enough attention to know that the data they present has been skewed, data elminated in other reports and nothing but computer models used where nothing but speculation is used as the "data" to arrive at the models conclusions? Right? Right? There are leaked emails from a few years ago that showed this. Google more, I'll get you started at Forbes not exactly the heart of the "right wing conservative" politico.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrar ... l-warming/,
The "vast wealth of scientfic data" to which you speak has largely been fabricated, omitted or altered to get the reaction you presently have.

You are aware that the earth has warmed and cooled ALL ON ITS OWN for millennia(historical record). Sun spots, solar flares, tilting of earths axis, orbital wobble etc, these are factors present through the millennia. Man's modern Industrial Age for a pin prick of time less than 200 years is not a problem. Not a single man made emission to be found, right? RIGHT? Volcanoes, Asteroids, Solar Flares etc are things that can and have drastically affected our worlds climate. Sorry, but aerosol hairspray and oil wells aren't THE issue.

Now, if your huffy at this point, deep breath.

I'm not saying man shouldn't be good stewards and every reasonable precaution taken as we use resources. I'm saying the idea that the action should be taxes and global governing bodies that grab money from "Western" countries to distribute to "Third World" countries as "payment" for the alleged harming IS NOT the right thing to do.

The single panel in the issue saying Arctic sea lanes have opened up due to global warming is VEI spreading liberal propaganda.
You know the ship that got stuck in the Arctic for 2-3weeks over the December/New Years span that made such news? You know what was NOT reported 98% of the time? That they were on a fact finding mission to prove the "alleged" thiner ice sheets. Surprise, surprise when they got stuck and it's thicker than ever.

Global warming = a real thing
Man-Made Global Warming(see climate change) = politically motivated regulation&taxation trap

Do more research. And I don't mean watch more John Stewart.

[bygranddesign]

...and man made global warming alarmists are looking like the fools, not the other way around. Despite trying for the better part of the last decade to do so to anyone asking "what?" to their data.

Whoa, what the Hell? Since when has there been definitive proof that climate change hasn't been induced by the actions of man?? This is one of the most serious issues that's currently affecting today's society, and I can't possibly accept this kind of statement that undermines the extremely urgent need for change in the actions of collective mankind in order to adapt to and mitigate the effects of climate change without seeing indisputable proof.

There's such a vast wealth of scientific data that identifies various forms of man-made pollution as heavily influential contributors to climate change that I can't even begin to imagine how your statement can possibly be an accurate reflection of society's general attitude toward the matter. Please, please tell me I've simply misunderstood what you've said here, because I sincerely hope that the alternative isn't applicable.

+1 to this

Anyway, thought this was a pretty good issue. Really dubious about the 'future' sequence in the book though, with Harada claiming dominance of the world. Ironically, that not only highlights his hypocrisy in denying Aric his forceful claim of a single country, but puts him on a whole new level above that by claiming his own sovereignty of the entire world. The reason that I'm dubious about this kind of massive change is that it will essentially result in distancing the VEI universe from our own reality, which begins to undermine the "VEI universe is set in our own reality" 'rule' that is currently a part of the way that VEI has crafted their universe.

Harada believes in his moral superiority. He doesn't feel he is being hypocritical - He feels his ultimate intention of creating a Utopian, peaceful world without Wars separates him from someone like Aric.

That, and it could potentially be a huge challenge for the future creative teams at VEI, as it inevitably puts them much further down the road signposted 'creating an alternative modern-day reality in the same geographical plane of existence'. That is of course what they've already done with their universe, but to date none of the fantastical elements have been recognised by the universe's general public, and so it's plausible that these events could be happening in our reality, without our knowledge, as it is with the comics' average citizens. Bloodshot, pisots, immortals and the other facets have to date managed to operate without exposure to general collective recognition. Writing Harada as dictator of Earth and psiots acting in public consciousness considerably increases the distance between 'plausible' and 'fantasy' in comparison to where the mark is currently with the comics. Still, they're crafting a 4001 Earth timeline as we speak, which is of course a slightly different task, but it shows that it's clearly not beyond them. But making it resemble our (readers') actual reality whilst having an omnipotent planetary dictator and psiots living out in the open... Most likely harder to achieve convincingly I would think.

I would rather not have VEI be that close to our reality - at least not at this point anymore. This is a reality with immortals and monsters and PSIOTS and aliens and super powered alien space suits. Any reality that has those things should have some major differences from ours. I want VEI to be a realistic take on a superhuman universe. Yeah, it might make it tough for writers/creators who might want to reference POP culture or our politics ..etc but they will need adjust and incorporate a universe that should feel very different. You can still have pop references but it needs to be through the lens of a different reality - for example maybe Bob Dylan writes an epic new album with an updated version of "The Times They Are A-Changin'" featuring Alien space debris, Head exploding Psiots and Voodoo Hero saving New Orleans from Deadside monsters..

[bygranddesign]

Global warming = a real thing
Man-Made Global Warming(see climate change) = politically motivated regulation&taxation trap

Do more research.

Seems like you are getting caught up in the conspiracy theories, propaganda and sensationalism of the subject

Lets read highlights from our friendly neighborhood Wikipedia (yeah I know liberal propaganda but they reference actual Scientific research!)

Scientific understanding of the cause of global warming has been increasing. In its fourth assessment (AR4 2007) of the relevant scientific literature, the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reported that scientists were more than 90% certain that most of global warming was being caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases produced by human activities.[8][9][10] In 2010 that finding was recognized by the national science academies of all major industrialized nations.[11][A] Affirming these findings in 2013, IPCC says that the largest driver of global warming is carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from fossil fuel combustion, cement production, and land use changes such as deforestation.[12] Its 2013 report states

Human influence has been detected in warming of the atmosphere and the ocean, in changes in the global water cycle, in reductions in snow and ice, in global mean sea level rise, and in changes in some climate extremes. This evidence for human influence has grown since AR4. It is extremely likely (95-100%) that human influence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.
—IPCC AR5 WG1 Summary for Policymakers[13]

Human activity since the Industrial Revolution has increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, leading to increased radiative forcing from CO2, methane, tropospheric ozone, CFCs and nitrous oxide. According to work published in 2007, the concentrations of CO2 and methane have increased by 36% and 148% respectively since 1750.[75] These levels are much higher than at any time during the last 800,000 years, the period for which reliable data has been extracted from ice cores.[76][77][78][79] Less direct geological evidence indicates that CO2 values higher than this were last seen about 20 million years ago.[80] Fossil fuel burning has produced about three-quarters of the increase in CO2 from human activity over the past 20 years. The rest of this increase is caused mostly by changes in land-use, particularly deforestation.[81] Estimates of global CO2 emissions in 2011 from fossil fuel combustion, including cement production and gas flaring, was 34.8 billion tonnes (9.5 ± 0.5 PgC), an increase of 54% above emissions in 1990. Coal burning was responsible for 43% of the total emissions, oil 34%, gas 18%, cement 4.9% and gas flaring 0.7%[82] In May 2013, it was reported that readings for CO2 taken at the world's primary benchmark site in Mauna Loa surpassed 400 ppm. According to professor Brian Hoskins, this is likely the first time CO2 levels have been this high for about 4.5 million years.[83][84]

Most scientists agree that humans are contributing to observed climate change.[86][210] A meta study of academic papers concerning global warming, published between 1991 and 2011 and accessible from Web of Knowledge, found that among those whose abstracts expressed a position on the cause of global warming, 97.2% supported the consensus view that it is man made.[211] In an October 2011 paper published in the International Journal of Public Opinion Research, researchers from George Mason University analyzed the results of a survey of 489 American scientists working in academia, government, and industry. Of those surveyed, 97% agreed that that global temperatures have risen over the past century and 84% agreed that "human-induced greenhouse warming" is now occurring, only 5% disagreeing that human activity is a significant cause of global warming.[212][213] National science academies have called on world leaders for policies to cut global emissions.[214]
In the scientific literature, there is a strong consensus that global surface temperatures have increased in recent decades and that the trend is caused mainly by human-induced emissions of greenhouse gases. No scientific body of national or international standing disagrees with this view.[215][216]

so to summarize

The Greenhouse effect is real and contributes to climate change and the overall warming of the planet
Pollution helps to significantly increase the Greenhouse effect
Man is the main source of said pollution
Most scientist agree with this assessment with little dissent

[Captain Craig]

Did you bother to even open the Forbes article? It heavily mentions the IPCC and how their data, no doubt the data you're pulling from Wikipedia, has been been skewed, altered or fabricated. Just curious, did you even read the first of the three pages in the Forbes article? It mentions how one of the leading "research" institutes(The Heartland Institute & Pacific Institute) that the IPCC relies on regularly falsifies data.

The discrediting flush of emails and data dumps begins by mentioning the Pacific Institute's director, a Peter Gleick.

Gleick has publicly confessed that he contacted The Heartland Institute fraudulently pretending to be a member of the Board of Directors. Emails released by The Heartland Institute show that he created an email address similar to that of a board member and used it to convince a staff member to send him confidential board materials. Gleick then forwarded the documents to 15 global warming alarmist advocacy organizations and sympathetic journalists, who immediately posted them online and blogged and wrote about them.

Their expectation apparently was that the documents would be as embarrassing and damaging to the global warming skeptics as were the emails revealed in the “Climategate” scandal to the alarmist side. The Climategate revelations showed scientific leaders of the UN’s IPCC and global warming alarmist movement plotting to falsify climate data and exclude those raising doubts about their theories from scientific publications, while coordinating their message with supposedly objective mainstream journalists.

Homework: Google Climategate

The story at Heartland now, after turnover, is outrage and that this was a one off isolated matter and they want the real science.

So, lets look at the science when it's not piecemealed and cherry picked out of context shall we?

The bottom line is that the temperature records are not consistent with the theory that human “greenhouse” gas emissions are the primary cause of global warming. Those records do not show temperatures rising in conjunction with such ever rising emissions as the globe increasingly industrializes. Instead, the temperature record shows an up and down pattern that follows the pattern of natural influences on global temperatures, such as cyclical sunspots and solar flares, and cycles of ocean churning from warmer to colder temperatures and back, such as the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO).

PRIMARY CAUSE is exactly what the man made global warming(climate alarmists) are wanting to perpetuate though. And that world government taxation, regulation and redistribution of resources and wealth must be done.

Moreover, the incorruptible and objective satellite temperature records show only modest warming starting in the late 1970s, which stopped roughly 10 years ago, with more recent declines. That is consistent with temperature proxy records found in nature, such as tree rings and ice cores. But that diverges significantly from the corruptible and subjectively compiled land based records, the repeated manipulation of which has prompted several prominent climate scientists to call for an investigation. Perhaps Gleick’s skills in falsification can be found more broadly among his colleagues.

Say what? So some of these scientists would dare to break from the pack and call for an inquiry?

What about this BBC piece today? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25771510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scientists are saying that the Sun is in a phase of "solar lull" - meaning that it has fallen asleep - and it is baffling them.

History suggests that periods of unusual "solar lull" coincide with bitterly cold winters.

Rebecca Morelle reports for BBC Newsnight on the effect this inactivity could have on our current climate, and what the implications might be for global warming.

Baffled?
History?
What?
The sun is going into a less intense phase and the cause/effect is very likely to mean harsher and colder winters?
Whodathunkit? The sun, that big heater in the sky could affect warming patterns. WOW! AMAZING!!


I don't wish to create walls of quote texts so I won't.

AGAIN, I'm not saying humankind SHOULDN'T be stewards of the environment and take EVERY SINGLE precaution when accessing the resources of the globe. I'm saying that if you STILL believe that man-made global warming(a made up problem) is the SAME as actual Global Warming/Cooling( processes that happen due to long standing natural and/or cosmic factors) then you need to re-examine things and get logical vs emotional on the matter.

[SJS4]

[bygranddesign]

AGAIN, I'm not saying humankind SHOULDN'T be stewards of the environment and take EVERY SINGLE precaution when accessing the resources of the globe. I'm saying that if you STILL believe that man-made global warming(a made up problem) is the SAME as actual Global Warming/Cooling( processes that happen due to long standing natural and/or cosmic factors) then you need to re-examine things and get logical vs emotional on the matter.

I think you are getting too emotional about this subject.

You are looking for things to support your conspiracy viewpoint.

I think there are legitimate argument about the degree and urgency of the problem and the best policy responses

But if you are saying man is not a contributing factor to global warming and no policy response including to curb CO2 emissions is needed - than I think we will just agree to disagree.

[Tannerman]

Meanwhile, in Harbinger #20...