Shadowman #10 discussion

[jmatt]

The brethren are just as interesting as any of the other villain sects scattered throughout the universe

Shadowman needs an industrial cabal like Dr. Strange needs to fight Archer-Daniels-Midland. They are totally incongruent in tone.

And I have to admit, I thought The Null in AA was kinda idiotic, the Brethren just moreso. It's a stretch to imagine a cult that want to end the world (and themselves) entirely... but we have TWO groups that want that?

Rich, powerful people want to enjoy the world, maybe control it. But they don't sit around wishing the were minions in Hell.

"All of my corporations and mansions and yachts and beautiful women and great times... bah! Who needs it? I want a world where everyone is dead and there's no sunshine and I spend every day listening to the tortured shrieks of the damned!"

[bygranddesign]

The brethren are just as interesting as any of the other villain sects scattered throughout the universe

Shadowman needs an industrial cabal like Dr. Strange needs to fight Archer-Daniels-Midland. They are totally incongruent in tone.

And I have to admit, I thought The Null in AA was kinda idiotic, the Brethren just moreso. It's a stretch to imagine a cult that want to end the world (and themselves) entirely... but we have TWO groups that want that?

Rich, powerful people want to enjoy the world, maybe control it. But they don't sit around wishing the were minions in Hell.

"All of my corporations and mansions and yachts and beautiful women and great times... bah! Who needs it? I want a world where everyone is dead and there's no sunshine and I spend every day listening to the tortured shrieks of the damned!"

I think this was discussed in the issue 9 thread and even JJ chimed in ...

The way I see it is that this sect WORSHIPS Master Darque like he is a God and by bringing him to Earth they will solidify their powers even more. I think they achieved their great wealth in the first place by aligning themselves with Master Darque and Black Magic. They didn't know what Master Darque's true intentions were when and If he comes back to Earth.

[Carson]

Yeah, I remember that explanation of the bretheren's motives as well.

[jmatt]

I think this was discussed in the issue 9 thread and even JJ chimed in ...

The way I see it is that this sect WORSHIPS Master Darque like he is a God and by bringing him to Earth they will solidify their powers even more.

Yeah, I remember the thread. But it still doesn't seem like a good fit for the tone of the book, imo.

[JustinJordan]

The brethren are just as interesting as any of the other villain sects scattered throughout the universe

Shadowman needs an industrial cabal like Dr. Strange needs to fight Archer-Daniels-Midland. They are totally incongruent in tone.

And I have to admit, I thought The Null in AA was kinda idiotic, the Brethren just moreso. It's a stretch to imagine a cult that want to end the world (and themselves) entirely... but we have TWO groups that want that?

Rich, powerful people want to enjoy the world, maybe control it. But they don't sit around wishing the were minions in Hell.

"All of my corporations and mansions and yachts and beautiful women and great times... bah! Who needs it? I want a world where everyone is dead and there's no sunshine and I spend every day listening to the tortured shrieks of the damned!"

I think this was discussed in the issue 9 thread and even JJ chimed in ...

The way I see it is that this sect WORSHIPS Master Darque like he is a God and by bringing him to Earth they will solidify their powers even more. I think they achieved their great wealth in the first place by aligning themselves with Master Darque and Black Magic. They didn't know what Master Darque's true intentions were when and If he comes back to Earth.

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

[lorddunlow]

Glad to see you're still hanging around Justin! When do you start writing Darque Passages for VEI?

[bygranddesign]

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

yep. I remember. It was one of my favorite scenes. i didn't remember whether it was explicitly said that they achieved their power and wealth by aligning themselves with Darque but i definitely felt like it was a safe assumption.

[JustinJordan]

Glad to see you're still hanging around Justin! When do you start writing Darque Passages for VEI?

Tell Valiant. I really enjoy writing the Darques.

[grendeljd]

The brethren are just as interesting as any of the other villain sects scattered throughout the universe

Shadowman needs an industrial cabal like Dr. Strange needs to fight Archer-Daniels-Midland. They are totally incongruent in tone.

And I have to admit, I thought The Null in AA was kinda idiotic, the Brethren just moreso. It's a stretch to imagine a cult that want to end the world (and themselves) entirely... but we have TWO groups that want that?

Rich, powerful people want to enjoy the world, maybe control it. But they don't sit around wishing the were minions in Hell.

"All of my corporations and mansions and yachts and beautiful women and great times... bah! Who needs it? I want a world where everyone is dead and there's no sunshine and I spend every day listening to the tortured shrieks of the damned!"

I think this was discussed in the issue 9 thread and even JJ chimed in ...

The way I see it is that this sect WORSHIPS Master Darque like he is a God and by bringing him to Earth they will solidify their powers even more. I think they achieved their great wealth in the first place by aligning themselves with Master Darque and Black Magic. They didn't know what Master Darque's true intentions were when and If he comes back to Earth.

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

love jmatt's mini rant about the Brethren, and he makes a valid point about the shallow desires of people in the real world. But I tend to think of it in terms of this being a supernatural/horror slanted story, and in that 'reality' there would be people looking to get that kind of power.

I don't think they would be seeking hell on earth literally - these people, who are powerful men & women by normal standards in our society, would be arrogant enough to assume they will just get whatever they want. I recall posting comments early on, in around the first story arc, about how ridiculous some of them seemed - as if they thought they had firm control over powers they actually did not understand. That coincides with JJ's comments above - they were all too arrogant to see that they were being deceived & used. I feel like I 'got' the intent of the brethren from the start, but maybe they did need a little more time to flesh that out.

I've always been a fan of Clive Barker, and one thing he often explores in his darker, more perverse 'evil' characters (they're never that 1 dimensional) is the urge to want more than what all the earthly pleasures can offer. They often exhaust their desires & curiosities to the point of seeking out a darker path into supernatural territory in an endless quest for more at any cost. This kind of angle, to me, is what the Brethren are all about.

[grendeljd]

I would also like to chime in here and say I also commend you for speaking up early in this thread and owning up to what you thought were writing mistakes, Justin. That really, really does take a ton of balls & I have huge respect for you for doing that.

In my opinion after reading that, you wrote too well - the character was exactly what you intended, uncommunicative & hard to relate to! I agree with your assessment that maybe an internal monologue of some kind would have helped readers relate to him better though, while still maintaining those characteristics you were aiming for in his relationships with the other characters.

Personally I enjoyed the story from the start, I feel like I understood Jack for the most part (particularly in the first story arc). I don't know the backstory behind all the creative team changes around you (and I don't expect to ever know), but there did seem to be more unfortunate inconsistencies as the second storyline got underway. For me, very little of that pointed to a flaw in your skills, especially with the high watermarks you set by #0 & #10. It did feel a little awkward to have Dr Mirage vanish from the story, but otherwise I enjoyed the second arc from a writing standpoint (addition of an internal monologue not-withstanding) I think the scramble to get fill-in artists was what really hurt, it had a big impact on the emotional delivery of the tale.

Ultimately I'm glad you left on a very high note, and hope you do more work for VEI in the future!

[BugsySig]

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

yep. I remember. It was one of my favorite scenes. i didn't remember whether it was explicitly said that they achieved their power and wealth by aligning themselves with Darque but i definitely felt like it was a safe assumption.

I remember, and always thought it was pretty clear...Just sayin

[bygranddesign]

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

yep. I remember. It was one of my favorite scenes. i didn't remember whether it was explicitly said that they achieved their power and wealth by aligning themselves with Darque but i definitely felt like it was a safe assumption.

I remember, and always thought it was pretty clear...Just sayin

Tell it to JMatt ... I'm not the one questioning the brethrens motives!

[BugsySig]

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

yep. I remember. It was one of my favorite scenes. i didn't remember whether it was explicitly said that they achieved their power and wealth by aligning themselves with Darque but i definitely felt like it was a safe assumption.

I remember, and always thought it was pretty clear...Just sayin

It was more of a suck up to Justin than anything
Tell it to JMatt ... I'm not the one questioning the brethrens motives!

[bygranddesign]

It was more of a suck up to Justin than anything

[BugsySig]

It was more of a suck up to Justin than anything

I've *SQUEE* off way too many creators in the past few months. I want to try and stay on at least one's good side

[bygranddesign]

Glad to see you're still hanging around Justin! When do you start writing Darque Passages for VEI?

Tell Valiant. I really enjoy writing the Darques.

I think it makes a lot of sense to have a Darque Passages series or mini-series. It's no coincidence that issue 0 and issue 10 are up there as two of the best issues that Valiant has put out and they center around the Darques. People love these sibling characters. And the fact that you would be open to write it is awesome news. I'll write a letter to Valiant ... I think these stories are what fans want to see. We want to know what happens to Marius and Sandria after issue 10 ended.

[bygranddesign]

It was more of a suck up to Justin than anything

I've *SQUEE* off way too many creators in the past few months. I want to try and stay on at least one's good side

I thought that was lorddunlow that *SQUEE* off creators ...

[BugsySig]

It was more of a suck up to Justin than anything

I've *SQUEE* off way too many creators in the past few months. I want to try and stay on at least one's good side

I thought that was lorddunlow that *SQUEE* off creators ...

I brought Kurt Busiek here...nuf said.

[lorddunlow]

It was more of a suck up to Justin than anything

I've *SQUEE* off way too many creators in the past few months. I want to try and stay on at least one's good side

I thought that was lorddunlow that *SQUEE* off creators ...

Hey! I always kiss their butts when they post. Even that hack Dysart!

(as a side, my autocorrect tried to make me type "buttstock" instead of butts)

[jmatt]

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

Ouch! I got spanked by the author! Mommy!

Sorry, JJ, I didn't get the inference. I'm just trying to picture a smart industrialist like Elon Musk aligning himself with the Dark Lord of the Underworld and thinking it would have a happy ending. In looking back at #4, I see what you're saying about the Brethren wanting more life.

I suppose the line that skewed my understanding of their vision is: "The gateway between worlds will open. All that the Master promises will be."

Okay, so you're a smart, successful person in cahoots with the Dark Lord of Deadside. He's promising to open the floodgates of Hell upon Earth. Ya gotta have some notion of what that would mean for mankind, right? It sounds to me like they do.

I mean, it's not gonna be rainbows and unicorns that come pouring out of it. What comes through that gate is something he promised them. It is something they desired and he granted.

Thus, my comment. I think it is not entirely without merit.

And I'm not trying to be argumentative about it; you're the creator, it's not possible for me to be right about what you had in mind. I'm just describing for you how readers might interpret the dialogue.

[Carson]

It's gotta be hard to be a Valiant creator! Valiant comics are historically, and presently, more intelligent (in general) than a lot of the other books I try to read.

This has its consequences. Valiant readers are mostly intelligent and articulate (based on the ones I've met on here and in person at cons), and they have extremely high standards.

Obviously, Shadowman was trying to fit too much action in too soon (with not enough time for character development) and the first couple arcs suffered. JJ knew this (IMO it wasn't his decision to include everything that was included) and he was making adjustments. We all loved #0 and #10, so I'm glad to see JJ jump off on a high note.

I truly hope we see him again on another Valiant book - because as a creator, I know he's capable and I know he cares.

Valiant, I know you're listening! Darque Passages? Dr. Mirage? Something else?

[JustinJordan]

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

Ouch! I got spanked by the author! Mommy!

Sorry, JJ, I didn't get the inference. I'm just trying to picture a smart industrialist like Elon Musk aligning himself with the Dark Lord of the Underworld and thinking it would have a happy ending. In looking back at #4, I see what you're saying about the Brethren wanting more life.

I suppose the line that skewed my understanding of their vision is: "The gateway between worlds will open. All that the Master promises will be."

Okay, so you're a smart, successful person in cahoots with the Dark Lord of Deadside. He's promising to open the floodgates of Hell upon Earth. Ya gotta have some notion of what that would mean for mankind, right? It sounds to me like they do.

I mean, it's not gonna be rainbows and unicorns that come pouring out of it. What comes through that gate is something he promised them. It is something they desired and he granted.

Thus, my comment. I think it is not entirely without merit.

And I'm not trying to be argumentative about it; you're the creator, it's not possible for me to be right about what you had in mind. I'm just describing for you how readers might interpret the dialogue.

All good. There's always a gap between creator intent and reader interpretation.

In this case, the gateway between worlds isn't (to the Brethren) Darque unleashing hell on Earth. That's specifically a reference to Darque returning from Lyceum, rather than him opening the Earth to Deadside. The promises would be the knowledge and power they think they are going to get from him when that happens.

The Brethren basically existed to keep the Abettors from eating up all of Darque's time. He has no loyalty to them, and tells them whatever he feels like to keep them doing what he needs them to do. Once he got to Lyceum and made it back, he no longer needed them, and they'd have gotten killed or coverted like everyone else.

There's some of this in the book - the scene where Deveraux is pretty much a complete dick to the security guy when he escapes Samedi - that's actually a micro version of how Darque viewed the Brethren. Useful, expendable, told only what he wants them to know.

But again, to come back to things that could have been done better, that Darque doesn't care about the Brethren beyond their utility and has lied to them is stuff that should have been salted through the book over a longer stretch of time, and would have played out during Darque's endgame.

The Darque/Brethren stuff in particular was orginally intended to play out over about 25 to 30 issues (or to be clear, it'd be a subplot that came up - the arcs themselves wouldn't have been about the Brethren and Darque until nearer the end point) but it didn't work out that way.

[JustinJordan]

The brethren are just as interesting as any of the other villain sects scattered throughout the universe

Shadowman needs an industrial cabal like Dr. Strange needs to fight Archer-Daniels-Midland. They are totally incongruent in tone.

And I have to admit, I thought The Null in AA was kinda idiotic, the Brethren just moreso. It's a stretch to imagine a cult that want to end the world (and themselves) entirely... but we have TWO groups that want that?

Rich, powerful people want to enjoy the world, maybe control it. But they don't sit around wishing the were minions in Hell.

"All of my corporations and mansions and yachts and beautiful women and great times... bah! Who needs it? I want a world where everyone is dead and there's no sunshine and I spend every day listening to the tortured shrieks of the damned!"

I think this was discussed in the issue 9 thread and even JJ chimed in ...

The way I see it is that this sect WORSHIPS Master Darque like he is a God and by bringing him to Earth they will solidify their powers even more. I think they achieved their great wealth in the first place by aligning themselves with Master Darque and Black Magic. They didn't know what Master Darque's true intentions were when and If he comes back to Earth.

It's explicitly IN the book, too, when the leaders are talking in issue four. They want more power and more life.

That they were being lied to by Darque needs to be inferred. If the plot of the book had played out over a longer period, this would have been explicit too - as soon as they figured out what Darque was really doing they would have turned on each other and him.

love jmatt's mini rant about the Brethren, and he makes a valid point about the shallow desires of people in the real world. But I tend to think of it in terms of this being a supernatural/horror slanted story, and in that 'reality' there would be people looking to get that kind of power.

I don't think they would be seeking hell on earth literally - these people, who are powerful men & women by normal standards in our society, would be arrogant enough to assume they will just get whatever they want. I recall posting comments early on, in around the first story arc, about how ridiculous some of them seemed - as if they thought they had firm control over powers they actually did not understand. That coincides with JJ's comments above - they were all too arrogant to see that they were being deceived & used. I feel like I 'got' the intent of the brethren from the start, but maybe they did need a little more time to flesh that out.

I've always been a fan of Clive Barker, and one thing he often explores in his darker, more perverse 'evil' characters (they're never that 1 dimensional) is the urge to want more than what all the earthly pleasures can offer. They often exhaust their desires & curiosities to the point of seeking out a darker path into supernatural territory in an endless quest for more at any cost. This kind of angle, to me, is what the Brethren are all about.

The other problem for the writer is deciding how far down the rabbit hole you need to go. So, for instance, there's stuff like being arrogant enough to believe what Darque was feeding them, feeling invincible (and Samedi demonstated very clearly they were not), and the simple fact that people who weren't inclined to drink the Kool Aid wouldn't become high ranking Brethren to begin with.

All of which could merit a lot of writing about but, fundamentally, the book isn't about them. So you have to decide how much of that to go into. Which is one of the harder bits of this job when you're world building. I know, for instance, how the Brethren's organization is structured, and where Deveraux fits in, and how he got where he is, but how much of that needs to be on the page is ambiguous.

(And I'm not telling you now because El Milligan should have a clean of a slate as possible, should he decide to use them again.)

In the specific case of the Brethren, I think more of that was probably necessary.

[JustinJordan]

I would also like to chime in here and say I also commend you for speaking up early in this thread and owning up to what you thought were writing mistakes, Justin. That really, really does take a ton of balls & I have huge respect for you for doing that.

In my opinion after reading that, you wrote too well - the character was exactly what you intended, uncommunicative & hard to relate to! I agree with your assessment that maybe an internal monologue of some kind would have helped readers relate to him better though, while still maintaining those characteristics you were aiming for in his relationships with the other characters.

Personally I enjoyed the story from the start, I feel like I understood Jack for the most part (particularly in the first story arc). I don't know the backstory behind all the creative team changes around you (and I don't expect to ever know), but there did seem to be more unfortunate inconsistencies as the second storyline got underway. For me, very little of that pointed to a flaw in your skills, especially with the high watermarks you set by #0 & #10. It did feel a little awkward to have Dr Mirage vanish from the story, but otherwise I enjoyed the second arc from a writing standpoint (addition of an internal monologue not-withstanding) I think the scramble to get fill-in artists was what really hurt, it had a big impact on the emotional delivery of the tale.

Ultimately I'm glad you left on a very high note, and hope you do more work for VEI in the future!

Thanks!

Yeah, I ultimately think the problem isn't that what I tried to do with Jack was poorly executed - it was poorly conceived. It's something you could make work in a novel or maybe even in a comic with a character everyone knows intimately already, but it was the wrong approach for this.

Ah well. Live and learn.

[blujay]

Glad to see you're still hanging around Justin! When do you start writing Darque Passages for VEI?

This x100000000000