Harbinger #16 Discussion

[MoonChild]

Great Issue! It should be clear now that Perfect Day is a total fantasy, as far as i'm concerned: Torque Lives! But yea, could be dead anyway but we'll see...So many questions this issue leaves (A Good thing) while at the same time the reveal at the end was just kick-*SQUEE* writing skills. Loved it.

[AnthonyF]

Plus, after catching up on the trades and now this, I'm really starting to hate Ingrid.

I love to hate her, She seems so sickly sweet, makes is a great villain! Glad to see her return.

[kjjohanson]

"I'm not going to live in your misogynistic man-child id-driven fantasy world, Torque."

[KXXX]

Oh man, was this a good issue. Does anyone wish that we could have three Harbinger titles (regular, 1969, and Annals of Torquehalla)?

Dude I would write the *SQUEE* out of a Torquehalla book for free. There's now no excuse not to have this.

[lorddunlow]

Oh man, was this a good issue. Does anyone wish that we could have three Harbinger titles (regular, 1969, and Annals of Torquehalla)?

Dude I would write the *SQUEE* out of a Torquehalla book for free. There's no no excuse not to have this.

So I have a pitch.

Annals of Torquehalla is the crossover of Torque into the Deadside, but his psyche is so strong that he carves out his own niche and becomes godlike there.

It works in that it gives us a Torque book, gives the Shadowman corner of the universe a little more character, and (most importantly) keeps Torque dead and therefore I win my bet with jmatt.

[kjjohanson]

Annals of Torquehalla is the crossover of Torque into the Deadside, but his psyche is so strong that he carves out his own niche and becomes godlike there.

It works in that it gives us a Torque book, gives the Shadowman corner of the universe a little more character, and (most importantly) keeps Torque dead and therefore I win my bet with jmatt.

This is where I reiterate that nowhere in the discussion of your original bet did you stipulate which Valiant Universe. He's still dead in VH1.

[lorddunlow]

I will say this criticism about this awesome issue:

Regardless of my bet with jmatt, I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book. For such a great writer to stoop to this would really sully my opinion of this book a little. I will still read it because it's awesome, but it just takes it down a notch.

I would be okay with a coma. That effectively takes Torque out of commission and changes the status quo of the book. It would also be interesting to see him wake up one day without his powers.

I hope he stays dead. Not because of my bet with jmatt, but because I think it will be best for the story. I really was giving props to Dysart for the way he killed him. This arc could be an awesome send off story for Torque, or it can be a throwaway convenient storyline that shocked us for effect with his "death" but then turned around and said, "juuuuust playin'" (this is my son's favorite line).

[BugsySig]

I will say this criticism about this awesome issue:

Regardless of my bet with jmatt, I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book. For such a great writer to stoop to this would really sully my opinion of this book a little. I will still read it because it's awesome, but it just takes it down a notch.

I would be okay with a coma. That effectively takes Torque out of commission and changes the status quo of the book. It would also be interesting to see him wake up one day without his powers.

I hope he stays dead. Not because of my bet with jmatt, but because I think it will be best for the story. I really was giving props to Dysart for the way he killed him. This arc could be an awesome send off story for Torque, or it can be a throwaway convenient storyline that shocked us for effect with his "death" but then turned around and said, "juuuuust playin'" (this is my son's favorite line).

While it may be cliche, if it turns out he is alive, its just another way Dysart has *SQUEE* with our heads. No matter what we say we all kind of expected Torque to die at some point. Dysart has used that against us. And who knows? Maybe he has planted sufficient enough doubt to do it again and reveal Torque really is dead.

[bygranddesign]

I will say this criticism about this awesome issue:

Regardless of my bet with jmatt, I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book. For such a great writer to stoop to this would really sully my opinion of this book a little. I will still read it because it's awesome, but it just takes it down a notch.

I would be okay with a coma. That effectively takes Torque out of commission and changes the status quo of the book. It would also be interesting to see him wake up one day without his powers.

I hope he stays dead. Not because of my bet with jmatt, but because I think it will be best for the story. I really was giving props to Dysart for the way he killed him. This arc could be an awesome send off story for Torque, or it can be a throwaway convenient storyline that shocked us for effect with his "death" but then turned around and said, "juuuuust playin'" (this is my son's favorite line).

I want to see how this arc plays out but I definitely see your viewpoint. If Dysart ever plans on killing off torque in the future; how would he ever top this "fake out death"?

Not only the great final scene of issue 15

But i'm actually more bothered by the scene in the middle of this issue... where Kris and torque have this emotional, poignant moment where she apologizes for killing him and Torque seems to be accepting of his death. I felt like that was a great scene to send off this character .... But noooooo ... that seems like it was just more Dysart playing with our emotions..(?)

I still LOVE this issue

And the fact that he can make me go through the emotional rollercoaster says a lot about how skilled he is as a writer

but damn you Dysart ... its not right!

[Captain Craig]

Don't take the train=Don't think of pink elephants

Of course she took the train!!!

I'll say I was 95% certain that I knew Torque was not dead. However, in all the dreamworld machinations I was duped into not seeing that this, like BS&HC, is a direct flow of events from HW.

Well played again VALIANT!!

[jmatt]

...but I'm afraid I may owe jmatt a Harby Gold.

I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book.

Dude, you're missing it: Pete is Sealion. He's trying to find a way for them to break out of the mind control. So he tweaks Kris' mind into doing something radical, something that will take them somewhere else, someplace other than "Perfect Day" land. So she whacks Torque and they all go to Torquehala, where Kris and Faith start realizing what's going on.

That's not gratuitous. It's a plot device. The fact that he wove it in when we were expecting Torque might die isn't a cop-out, it's brilliant!

[hunter_peterson]

...but I'm afraid I may owe jmatt a Harby Gold.

I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book.

Dude, you're missing it: Pete is Sealion. He's trying to find a way for them to break out of the mind control. So he tweaks Kris' mind into doing something radical, something that will take them somewhere else, someplace other than "Perfect Day" land. So she whacks Torque and they all go to Torquehala, where Kris and Faith start realizing what's going on.

That's not gratuitous. It's a plot device. The fact that he wove it in when we were expecting Torque might die isn't a cop-out, it's brilliant!

Not super important, but I got the feeling that LA was Charlene's Perfect Day fantasy. I hope we get to see Kris and Faith's, too. Of course, it's equally likely it was a complete construct.

[String]

I will say this criticism about this awesome issue:

Regardless of my bet with jmatt, I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book. For such a great writer to stoop to this would really sully my opinion of this book a little. I will still read it because it's awesome, but it just takes it down a notch.

I would be okay with a coma. That effectively takes Torque out of commission and changes the status quo of the book. It would also be interesting to see him wake up one day without his powers.

I hope he stays dead. Not because of my bet with jmatt, but because I think it will be best for the story. I really was giving props to Dysart for the way he killed him. This arc could be an awesome send off story for Torque, or it can be a throwaway convenient storyline that shocked us for effect with his "death" but then turned around and said, "juuuuust playin'" (this is my son's favorite line).

I want to see how this arc plays out but I definitely see your viewpoint. If Dysart ever plans on killing off torque in the future; how would he ever top this "fake out death"?

Not only the great final scene of issue 15

But i'm actually more bothered by the scene in the middle of this issue... where Kris and torque have this emotional, poignant moment where she apologizes for killing him and Torque seems to be accepting of his death. I felt like that was a great scene to send off this character .... But noooooo ... that seems like it was just more Dysart playing with our emotions..(?)

I still LOVE this issue

And the fact that he can make me go through the emotional rollercoaster says a lot about how skilled he is as a writer

but damn you Dysart ... its not right!

Even if Torque makes it out of this fantasy alive, I would think there would have to be some real-life repercussion to Kris' actions. Not only did she summon the courage to 'kill' him, she actually looked as if she was enjoying it. It's gotta affect the overall dynamic of the group.

Plus, what about Charlene's kiss with Kris? If this is all within their minds, then is that something Charlene has wanted to do? And that Kris (apparently) would be okay with it? There's a lot of character insights in this fantasy sequence, another great facet that Dysart is spreading throughout this arc.

[MoonChild]

Both great perspectives but I have to go with jmatt on this. Good we all agree this arc is top notch.

...but I'm afraid I may owe jmatt a Harby Gold.

I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book.

Dude, you're missing it: Pete is Sealion. He's trying to find a way for them to break out of the mind control. So he tweaks Kris' mind into doing something radical, something that will take them somewhere else, someplace other than "Perfect Day" land. So she whacks Torque and they all go to Torquehala, where Kris and Faith start realizing what's going on.

That's not gratuitous. It's a plot device. The fact that he wove it in when we were expecting Torque might die isn't a cop-out, it's brilliant!

[lorddunlow]

...but I'm afraid I may owe jmatt a Harby Gold.

I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book.

Dude, you're missing it: Pete is Sealion. He's trying to find a way for them to break out of the mind control. So he tweaks Kris' mind into doing something radical, something that will take them somewhere else, someplace other than "Perfect Day" land. So she whacks Torque and they all go to Torquehala, where Kris and Faith start realizing what's going on.

That's not gratuitous. It's a plot device. The fact that he wove it in when we were expecting Torque might die isn't a cop-out, it's brilliant!

You may be right, but I'm not a fan of the fake-out death of #15 if this is what is happening.

[bribri]

...but I'm afraid I may owe jmatt a Harby Gold.

I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book.

Dude, you're missing it: Pete is Sealion. He's trying to find a way for them to break out of the mind control. So he tweaks Kris' mind into doing something radical, something that will take them somewhere else, someplace other than "Perfect Day" land. So she whacks Torque and they all go to Torquehala, where Kris and Faith start realizing what's going on.

That's not gratuitous. It's a plot device. The fact that he wove it in when we were expecting Torque might die isn't a cop-out, it's brilliant!

You may be right, but I'm not a fan of the fake-out death of #15 if this is what is happening.

Yeah, but he didn't even die in #15. He "died" at the beginning of #16.

[greg]

It is cliche to kill a character and have it end up being a dream, but I think it's fine if it happens IMMEDIATELY.
It's also cliche to have something bad happen and have the hero save the day, but I don't think anyone's asking for that to stop.

If they had "killed" Torque, confirmed he was dead, had a funeral, moved on... and then "it was a dream"... then we'd have a problem here.

Having something happen for a few pages before we find out what's going on... not a problem.

IMHO
(in my Holland opinion)

[Elveen]

IMHO
(in my Holland opinion)

I see what you did there. You should make those little rubber bracelets with "IMHO" on them.

I'd for sure where an "IMEGO" bracelet when I did shows. In fact.... I demand you make them.

[Blood of Heroes]

IMHO
(in my Holland opinion)

I see what you did there. You should make those little rubber bracelets with "IMHO" on them.

I'd for sure where an "IMEGO" bracelet when I did shows. In fact.... I demand you make them.

You need a bracelet that reads GIT.

[jmatt]

It is cliche to kill a character and have it end up being a dream, but I think it's fine if it happens IMMEDIATELY.

If they had "killed" Torque, confirmed he was dead, had a funeral, moved on... and then "it was a dream"... then we'd have a problem here.

Having something happen for a few pages before we find out what's going on... not a problem.

And what a great cliffhanger. So great, you had readers wagering on the outcome. Dysart is just awesome.

[Heath]

I will say this criticism about this awesome issue:

Regardless of my bet with jmatt, I really feel that if Torque comes out of this alive and well, then I will have lost some respect for Dysart. The dream sequence is the biggest comic book cliche death that exists. It is just a cop out when you want to kill a character for effect, but don't want lasting repercussions in the book. For such a great writer to stoop to this would really sully my opinion of this book a little. I will still read it because it's awesome, but it just takes it down a notch.

I would be okay with a coma. That effectively takes Torque out of commission and changes the status quo of the book. It would also be interesting to see him wake up one day without his powers.

I hope he stays dead. Not because of my bet with jmatt, but because I think it will be best for the story. I really was giving props to Dysart for the way he killed him. This arc could be an awesome send off story for Torque, or it can be a throwaway convenient storyline that shocked us for effect with his "death" but then turned around and said, "juuuuust playin'" (this is my son's favorite line).

I completely agree with lorddunlow here. I didn't expect Torque to still be alive because I thought Valiant was above such cheap tricks. However, I did really enjoy this issue and I'm anxious for the next and to see how this all plays out. Of course, my favorite part was the shout out to my New Orleans Saints!

[Peter]

Wow this was fun, I mean it was obvious that they were in some sort of illusion by just being in Torquehala and it was fun going along for the ride, but the last few pages really surprised me.

I wonder though if Kris and Faith's awakenings are totally to do with Peter, yes Kris I can totally understand with the connection to the sea (Peter) calling her, but for me Faith (and this girl is my favourite of the book) it seems just realises that Peter isn't really who he appears to be by his character, and just goes along with it for her own little guilty pleasures, until she decides finally that the game is up and becomes self aware. It's probably not even important, but I really enjoyed how Faith discovers the truth.

I really enjoyed this and I think this arc will really step up from now.

These kids can't get a break, well I guess they have had a holiday of sorts, in an "American Dad" sort of way. Sort of expecting Stan Smith to be standing there at the end.

Was I the only one who after finishing this issue, went straight back to look at the issues that occurred at the end of the Harbinger Wars?

[bribri]

Wow this was fun, I mean it was obvious that they were in some sort of illusion by just being in Torquehala and it was fun going along for the ride, but the last few pages really surprised me.

I wonder though if Kris and Faith's awakenings are totally to do with Peter, yes Kris I can totally understand with the connection to the sea (Peter) calling her, but for me Faith (and this girl is my favourite of the book) it seems just realises that Peter isn't really who he appears to be by his character, and just goes along with it for her own little guilty pleasures, until she decides finally that the game is up and becomes self aware. It's probably not even important, but I really enjoyed how Faith discovers the truth.

I really enjoyed this and I think this arc will really step up from now.

These kids can't get a break, well I guess they have had a holiday of sorts, in an "American Dad" sort of way. Sort of expecting Stan Smith to be standing there at the end.

Was I the only one who after finishing this issue, went straight back to look at the issues that occurred at the end of the Harbinger Wars?

It makes sense that Peter would be able to get through to Faith (if that is what's happening). There was a scene in Harbinger Wars when Peter made the team wear headsets to stay in contact. He mentioned that his connection with Faith was very strong. I think it's more likely he would be connecting with Faith and not Kris. I think Kris is discovering the reality on her own because of her intelligence and independence. If Pete were reaching out to both, I would think they'd have similar reactions. But Kris is hell bent on getting to the sea, and Faith realizes something is not right because of the fake Peter (further supporting her connection with the real one).

[KXXX]

I have to add a few things to this, just thoughts in my Holland opinion...

First, someone mentions Pete is Sea Lion. Animalia is coming soon, judging by the covers. Any chance she could be Sea Lion?
We also see the Bleeding Monk in upcoming covers, could she be acting on his behalf?

Second, forget the Matrix crap: Torque is alive. We see four different capsules and I don't believe we have any doubt that it's one each for the Renegades minus Pete. What's interesting is the idea of different scenarios for the different renegades. I think LA was Kris and not Flamingo as she was the one awake enough to be reached by whoever Sea Lion is.

[NapoleonBlownapart]

Hahaha, the MTV Cribs parody was perfect.