Shadowman #10 discussion

[Chiclo]

Sorry all about the post above - didn't realize Dan was signed in on my computer...

That is why I use a different browser than my wife.

[hunter_peterson]

Wow, JJ is the king of awesome for coming on here and so candidly saying how he feels he could have done things differently. That *SQUEE* takes balls like the devil's and tough as dragon callouses. Which would not be sexy, but are definitely admirable.

I totally agree with his assessment and am actually going to reread the whole run with that characterisation in mind. I think that if I'd been on board with that take from the beginning that I would have LOVED this series instead of just quite liked it, but wished it was more consistent. Definitely hope he gets more Valiant work.

Just one question, if Mister Jordan is willing to answer... could you tell us a little bit more about Doctor Mirage, or is that not allowed? She seemed really cool and I remember you guys talking about how her powers were Eastern/Oriental magic as opposed to Hoodoo/African/American magic. Plus she just kind of disappeared from the book... would love to know what was up with that.

PS: I love the Luther Strode series and CAN NOT WAIT for The Legacy! I also really like New Guardians too, and enjoyed Superboy, but got driven off by the constant Superman crossovers (which I think would work better if the Super Family characters just showed up in the "host" title). Keep up the great work, dude!

[JustinJordan]

Just one question, if Mister Jordan is willing to answer... could you tell us a little bit more about Doctor Mirage, or is that not allowed? She seemed really cool and I remember you guys talking about how her powers were Eastern/Oriental magic as opposed to Hoodoo/African/American magic. Plus she just kind of disappeared from the book... would love to know what was up with that.

PS: I love the Luther Strode series and CAN NOT WAIT for The Legacy! I also really like New Guardians too, and enjoyed Superboy, but got driven off by the constant Superman crossovers (which I think would work better if the Super Family characters just showed up in the "host" title). Keep up the great work, dude!

Thanks!

In regards to Mirage, there's a limited amount I'm willing to say, just because someone of the stuff might get used later on or be similar to stuff that Milligan wants to do*, and I don't want to ruin someone's fun. Always a balancing act here in that regard - even with posting, I don't want people to feel like I'm instrusive or that they can't say what they want.

*I don't have any idea what he might do, so don't read into it - he may never use Mirage or he might use her a bunch or Valiant might want her somewhere else - I'm not privy to plans.

In this arc, as it evolved, we were running out of space to tell the story we wanted to tell, and so basically, either Samedi or Mirage needed to bug out. Either one made sense narratively - Samedi is selfish and this wasn't Mirage's fight - but Samedi was able to resolve more plot stuff, so it was him that stayed.

I quite liked Mirage, and would have liked to do more with her as the series went, had I stayed on.

[bygranddesign]

Hi Justin, not sure if you saw this question i posted ... but should we assume that Julien the next shadowman after Marius is the eventual son of Sandria and Marius? Or should we not assume that ? ... And that will be something that might be answered at some other point in time...

thanks

[JustinJordan]

Hi Justin, not sure if you saw this question i posted ... but should we assume that Julien the next shadowman after Marius is the eventual son of Sandria and Marius? Or should we not assume that ? ... And that will be something that might be answered at some other point in time...

thanks

That's one of the questions I can't answer. Well, won't answer. I have an answer for the question, based on what I was thinking when I wrote, but I think that revealing it is one of those things that would ruin the fun a bit for future issues. I think that's probably true regardless of Milligan* decides to do - if does what I'd have done, it'll feel like a spoiler. If does something differently, people might compare it.


*Man, I can't come up with a way of addressing the guy that feels right. I don't know him, so Peter is too informal. Mr. Milligan is too formal, and just Milligan feels cold. Le sigh.

[tchalla8]

Hi Justin, not sure if you saw this question i posted ... but should we assume that Julien the next shadowman after Marius is the eventual son of Sandria and Marius? Or should we not assume that ? ... And that will be something that might be answered at some other point in time...

thanks

That's one of the questions I can't answer. Well, won't answer. I have an answer for the question, based on what I was thinking when I wrote, but I think that revealing it is one of those things that would ruin the fun a bit for future issues. I think that's probably true regardless of Milligan* decides to do - if does what I'd have done, it'll feel like a spoiler. If does something differently, people might compare it.

Totally makes sense to me why you'd want to withhold that. Thanks again for talking to the fans. You're all class.

[bygranddesign]

Hi Justin, not sure if you saw this question i posted ... but should we assume that Julien the next shadowman after Marius is the eventual son of Sandria and Marius? Or should we not assume that ? ... And that will be something that might be answered at some other point in time...

thanks

That's one of the questions I can't answer. Well, won't answer. I have an answer for the question, based on what I was thinking when I wrote, but I think that revealing it is one of those things that would ruin the fun a bit for future issues. I think that's probably true regardless of Milligan* decides to do - if does what I'd have done, it'll feel like a spoiler. If does something differently, people might compare it.


*Man, I can't come up with a way of addressing the guy that feels right. I don't know him, so Peter is too informal. Mr. Milligan is too formal, and just Milligan feels cold. Le sigh.

Cool. Thanks. It actually answers my question for the most part.
It sounds like an open plot point that is ripe for more storytelling possibilities.

And I think Milligan is just fine

[JustinJordan]

Hi Justin, not sure if you saw this question i posted ... but should we assume that Julien the next shadowman after Marius is the eventual son of Sandria and Marius? Or should we not assume that ? ... And that will be something that might be answered at some other point in time...

thanks

That's one of the questions I can't answer. Well, won't answer. I have an answer for the question, based on what I was thinking when I wrote, but I think that revealing it is one of those things that would ruin the fun a bit for future issues. I think that's probably true regardless of Milligan* decides to do - if does what I'd have done, it'll feel like a spoiler. If does something differently, people might compare it.


*Man, I can't come up with a way of addressing the guy that feels right. I don't know him, so Peter is too informal. Mr. Milligan is too formal, and just Milligan feels cold. Le sigh.

Cool. Thanks. It actually answers my question for the most part.
It sounds like an open plot point that is ripe for more storytelling possibilities.

And I think Milligan is just fine

I will say that I wrote the last page to be deliberately ambiguous (I have an answer in my head, but the page is what matters) so the next guy could have room to play.

[JustinJordan]

Hi Justin, not sure if you saw this question i posted ... but should we assume that Julien the next shadowman after Marius is the eventual son of Sandria and Marius? Or should we not assume that ? ... And that will be something that might be answered at some other point in time...

thanks

That's one of the questions I can't answer. Well, won't answer. I have an answer for the question, based on what I was thinking when I wrote, but I think that revealing it is one of those things that would ruin the fun a bit for future issues. I think that's probably true regardless of Milligan* decides to do - if does what I'd have done, it'll feel like a spoiler. If does something differently, people might compare it.

Totally makes sense to me why you'd want to withhold that. Thanks again for talking to the fans. You're all class.

Thanks, and no problem. Y'all are cool to chat with.

[KXXX]

*Man, I can't come up with a way of addressing the guy that feels right. I don't know him, so Peter is too informal. Mr. Milligan is too formal, and just Milligan feels cold. Le sigh.

Will 'El MIlligan' work, perhaps?

Love the Darque stuff, brother. This was a very good read.

[Carson]

Hell of an issue. Justin, I'm sorry to hear of your departure. When we spoke in Charlotte and discussed the speed bumps in the first couple arcs you really seemed to have it worked out and you were headed in the right direction. #0 and #10 are fantastic reads. They are easily 2 of my top 10 VEI books.

You are certainly leaving the series on a high note. El Milligan is lucky to have the Darques fleshed out, and he has the freedom to help Jack break out of his shell in ways he sees fit.

I agree a Jack monologue would've helped flesh out the introverted character. That said, I enjoyed Dox and Alyssa, and I'll miss them (Dox especially). He might be the first dwarf protagonist I've had the pleasure to meet. Alyssa was hot and sassy, and I enjoyed that too.

Thanks for being such a cool, approachable, and engaged creator. It's obvious you really care about your work.

I'll look for your future work, and hope to see your name on more Valiant books!

[Captain Craig]

I can't really add anything to what's been said about issue #10 already. Yes, it and #0 are by far the best single 2 issues of the book.
I may be in the minority of those who didn't want Dox to die. I was feeling that since Jack had yet to fully connect the elusive "father figure" would be a good placeholder for telling us more about the Loa, the Boniface legacy etc.

Props to Justin for coming in an talking with us. While I was like others and had a hard time connecting with Jack I kept with it out of loyalty to the character. I did feel you did a better job after the story moved past the opening arc. While an internal monologue might've helped I feel that some type of training/learning sequences as early as issue #2 could've helped. Sprinkle in another in arc two. I do feel that whatever obstacles, some you've stated, you had in the start are out of the way now at issue #10. Maybe your contract was up, maybe you have another offer but I do hope to see you on another VALIANT title at some point.

Oh, and unless I missed it, it seems the thought here by everyone was that the child was still alive? With Marius at the birth saying, "Come on, darling, cry for me please.", and no panels showing the Waaaahh of a living breathing crying child I took it to mean the child had been still born. Sandria took what life essence the child possessed and created the Loa.

Shadowman may have taken off slowly Justin for which you blame yourself but just know that we the readers also feel as if you righted the ship and left Jack & Co. in great shape for whatever lies ahead.

[hunter_peterson]

Just one question, if Mister Jordan is willing to answer... could you tell us a little bit more about Doctor Mirage, or is that not allowed? She seemed really cool and I remember you guys talking about how her powers were Eastern/Oriental magic as opposed to Hoodoo/African/American magic. Plus she just kind of disappeared from the book... would love to know what was up with that.

PS: I love the Luther Strode series and CAN NOT WAIT for The Legacy! I also really like New Guardians too, and enjoyed Superboy, but got driven off by the constant Superman crossovers (which I think would work better if the Super Family characters just showed up in the "host" title). Keep up the great work, dude!

Thanks!

In regards to Mirage, there's a limited amount I'm willing to say, just because someone of the stuff might get used later on or be similar to stuff that Milligan wants to do*, and I don't want to ruin someone's fun. Always a balancing act here in that regard - even with posting, I don't want people to feel like I'm instrusive or that they can't say what they want.

*I don't have any idea what he might do, so don't read into it - he may never use Mirage or he might use her a bunch or Valiant might want her somewhere else - I'm not privy to plans.

In this arc, as it evolved, we were running out of space to tell the story we wanted to tell, and so basically, either Samedi or Mirage needed to bug out. Either one made sense narratively - Samedi is selfish and this wasn't Mirage's fight - but Samedi was able to resolve more plot stuff, so it was him that stayed.

I quite liked Mirage, and would have liked to do more with her as the series went, had I stayed on.

You're quite welcome!

And that is logic. I can see that making sense. Samedi was pretty cool anyway. I kind of saw him as an updated Doctor Eclipse. Wish more of Saturday was there in the final product, but still cool.

[pixierosa]

Oh, and unless I missed it, it seems the thought here by everyone was that the child was still alive? With Marius at the birth saying, "Come on, darling, cry for me please.", and no panels showing the Waaaahh of a living breathing crying child I took it to mean the child had been still born. Sandria took what life essence the child possessed and created the Loa.

I was a little fuzzy on that, too, but in the #0 book, neither Darque twin cried as babies either. We never see the child's face, and in a way, that is significant. We don't know what Marius was looking at. Eyes open/closed? Beautiful child or something made monstrous by dark magics? When Sandria says she knew her child would not survive, I then took it to mean that the baby was alive but either would not physically survive due to the magics of Sandria's "rebirth" or simply because her brother would kill the baby. So she transformed the baby. Horrible and honorable in a way. When she said her love will love on, she meant she and Marius' love - their child, in the form of this loa. And of course, it also gave her love Marius the ability to survive and battle back against Darque.

Wowzer.

[Savant]

I agree a Jack monologue would've helped flesh out the introverted character. That said, I enjoyed Dox and Alyssa, and I'll miss them (Dox especially). He might be the first dwarf protagonist I've had the pleasure to meet. Alyssa was hot and sassy, and I enjoyed that too.

I didn't read the previous couple issues, is Alyssa out of the storyline?

[hunter_peterson]

I agree a Jack monologue would've helped flesh out the introverted character. That said, I enjoyed Dox and Alyssa, and I'll miss them (Dox especially). He might be the first dwarf protagonist I've had the pleasure to meet. Alyssa was hot and sassy, and I enjoyed that too.

I didn't read the previous couple issues, is Alyssa out of the storyline?

El Milliagan has said she'll be in his run, or at least the first arc. Sounds like we'll get to meet some of her bosses as well... maybe Nettie? I think she was shown in the art. He mentions her as one of the things that are already established for him to play with. Should be cool. I'd like to learn more about her backstory. And where she got the magical glasses that can't fall off, of course.

[jmatt]

Oh, and unless I missed it, it seems the thought here by everyone was that the child was still alive? With Marius at the birth saying, "Come on, darling, cry for me please.", and no panels showing the Waaaahh of a living breathing crying child I took it to mean the child had been still born. Sandria took what life essence the child possessed and created the Loa.

That's how I read it.

[ShadowTuga]

I wrote this somewhere else, don't call me lazy

After the not-quite-as-good last 3 issues (I'll blame much of that on the multiple artists, but not all), I was finally rewarded with a Shadowman book that was truly enganging from beginning to end.

SHADOMAN #10 is a GREAT comic book!
So, what does this skinny nerd think? SHADOWMAN #10 is, tied at 1st place with issue "0", by FAR, as the best issues of the series.

Those 2 books are SO MUCH better than the rest of the run, and that's a shame, because when Jordan set his mind to it and it's not working with 4 different art styles, his deliveries can be tremendously good. Let me rephrase that, both issues 0 and 10 have several artists but none feel intrusive or distracting, unlike issues 7,8 or 9.

No offense to Justin Jordan, but these 2 issues seemed like they were done by a different writer. My guess is that JJ just knew what to do here, and stuck with it (I think the "Darque/Deadside" arc suffered from some last minute changes both to the story and art, but that's my uneducated guess. That and the "hey, here's my mammaries, BahByee!" moment by Doc Mirage.)

Or, you know... when it come to superheroes, his strong is writing Villains and their f''ed up plans and whatnot. Which is great!!!

So after we met Sondria, we now got to discover what happened to her after the end of 0. I'll not go into the plot itself (go and read the book!), but let me tell you that we finally get to know HOW Shadowman was born. He's the son of Marius (Jack's ancestor) and Sondria, whom she fuses with Dad in order to defeat Nico (I'll rather call him Nicky) Darque.

I'm also disappointed because this is the last time we see JJ writing a SHADOWMAN book, because clearly he was going somewhere with the twins.
Also, I like some of his characters a lot, like JAUNTY, SAMEDI and new DR. MIRAGE, but others, well, not so much. Alyssa was cool for 3 issues, then became slightly annoying, but shes a kid, I guess I can dig it. As for Dox... I didn't cared about his more than obvious death... because I didn't knew the character.

But hey, that's past. Done!

My best of luck to Justin on his future endeavours, hope to see a vEI book by you soon.

4.95/5 A nearly perfect comic

[lorddunlow]

Finally read this week's books. Let me start by reiterating how very bummed I am that Justin Jordan is leaving this book. I know that a lot of people were underwhelmed by many of the Shadowman issues, and I agree that I didn't enjoy Shadowman as much as the other VEI books early on, but after #0 and 10 (I liked 9 really well also), I so want to see where he was going with this book. I hope it was a mutual thing and not him getting booted because of our whining or sales or anything. It seems like the book was just slow to get rolling.

I just got into where Invincible gets good (you know the book that's well past 100 issues now), and the first 10 issues of that book are nowhere near as good as Shadowman so far. I'm very nervous about the new writer, especially now. I'm super excited about the artist, but I really think Shadowman was in good hands with JJ.

To Justin Jordan: man, this sucks. I loved your interactions here, and I loved your spin on the whole Shadowman mythology. I have yet to seek out any of your other stuff, but I'm sure I will. I enjoy your Twitter, and will continue to follow your rants (I loved the "who buys this *SQUEE*" article - I totally agree with you on that). Don't be a stranger. I second the sentiment that I hope you get some more work with VEI.

Now to the actual issue: Whoa. Full on Joey Lawrence on Blossom whoa. This origin story is awesome. So freaking awesome. I never in a million years could have guessed that Shadowman was created by Master Darque's sister by transforming her stillborn child into the loa that then bonds with her lover in order to protect and save them both from her brother! Mind sufficiently and totally blown. Bravo, Justin, on the best origin of VEI so far (and Harada's and Bloodshot's origins were pretty awesome in my opinion). The issue, start to finish, was a masterpiece of storytelling. Shadowman #0 and #10 are the two best issues (in that order) that VEI has put out. I think that should count for something, regardless of any problems any of the other issues had. Archer and Armstrong #12 is a close third with Bloodshot 0 and Harbinger 0 rounding out the top five issues to date.

Whoa. 9/10 (art was not perfect - story was)

[Peter]

Finally read this week's books. Let me start by reiterating how very bummed I am that Justin Jordan is leaving this book. I know that a lot of people were underwhelmed by many of the Shadowman issues, and I agree that I didn't enjoy Shadowman as much as the other VEI books early on, but after #0 and 10 (I liked 9 really well also), I so want to see where he was going with this book. I hope it was a mutual thing and not him getting booted because of our whining or sales or anything. It seems like the book was just slow to get rolling.

I just got into where Invincible gets good (you know the book that's well past 100 issues now), and the first 10 issues of that book are nowhere near as good as Shadowman so far. I'm very nervous about the new writer, especially now. I'm super excited about the artist, but I really think Shadowman was in good hands with JJ.

To Justin Jordan: man, this sucks. I loved your interactions here, and I loved your spin on the whole Shadowman mythology. I have yet to seek out any of your other stuff, but I'm sure I will. I enjoy your Twitter, and will continue to follow your rants (I loved the "who buys this *SQUEE*" article - I totally agree with you on that). Don't be a stranger. I second the sentiment that I hope you get some more work with VEI.

Now to the actual issue: Whoa. Full on Joey Lawrence on Blossom whoa. This origin story is awesome. So freaking awesome. I never in a million years could have guessed that Shadowman was created by Master Darque's sister by transforming her stillborn child into the loa that then bonds with her lover in order to protect and save them both from her brother! Mind sufficiently and totally blown. Bravo, Justin, on the best origin of VEI so far (and Harada's and Bloodshot's origins were pretty awesome in my opinion). The issue, start to finish, was a masterpiece of storytelling. Shadowman #0 and #10 are the two best issues (in that order) that VEI has put out. I think that should count for something, regardless of any problems any of the other issues had. Archer and Armstrong #12 is a close third with Bloodshot 0 and Harbinger 0 rounding out the top five issues to date.

Whoa. 9/10 (art was not perfect - story was)

Very well written Lorddunlow, I couldn't agree more with what you have written about Shadowman.

I don't get to read the new week's comics until Saturday night, so I purposely avoid the discussion thread until after I read each title.
This issue was a wonderful tale of love, the two sides of Love. Darque's controlling obsessive love towards Sondria compared to Sondria's love to other people and then to Marius. One love is self obsessed whilst the other is the total opposite, giving and yet prepared to sacrifice for others.

I feel most of this story has been reviewed extremely well in earlier posts, but I would like to say I enjoyed this story immensely, and I too definitely experienced the wow factor as well, when I have had a small taste of Shadowman's origins.

Thank you so much Justin, not only for these beautiful stories but also for your insights on these stories here, good luck in your future.

[bygranddesign]

Now to the actual issue: Whoa. Full on Joey Lawrence on Blossom whoa. This origin story is awesome. So freaking awesome. I never in a million years could have guessed that Shadowman was created by Master Darque's sister by transforming her stillborn child into the loa that then bonds with her lover in order to protect and save them both from her brother! Mind sufficiently and totally blown. Bravo, Justin, on the best origin of VEI so far (and Harada's and Bloodshot's origins were pretty awesome in my opinion). The issue, start to finish, was a masterpiece of storytelling. Shadowman #0 and #10 are the two best issues (in that order) that VEI has put out. I think that should count for something, regardless of any problems any of the other issues had. Archer and Armstrong #12 is a close third with Bloodshot 0 and Harbinger 0 rounding out the top five issues to date.

Whoa. 9/10 (art was not perfect - story was)

Great post lorddunlow.

I think you hit on whats so frustrating

Shadowman #0 and #10 are arguably the top 2 best issues VEI has put out ... yet Shadowman on the whole has probably been the most inconsistent VEI title.

Justin really shines when it comes to the overarching ideas, themes and mythology of Shadowman along with probably the best origin story of the re-imagined main characters ... so hopefully those great ideas and themes carry over to the new team.

I'm hopeful that the new team can bring more consistency month to month both artistically and story-wise ... but it's going to be very very very difficult to top the high level of storytelling that #0 and #10 brought.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Justin, much respect for coming on here and talking to the fans. I have been a harsh critic of Shadowman, but just reading what you've said about the title, and the process of writing it has made me truly respect you and what you've done. Thank you for devoting your time and creative energies to us, the fans. Hope to see you back here at Valiant soon, and knocking it out of the park, like #0, and #10. Thank you!

[jmatt]

I hope it was a mutual thing and not him getting booted because of our whining or sales or anything.

Which is why I was advocating that people just let the "Underwhelmed by Shadowman" thread just die. It was unfair to JJ to continue to review the book under that banner, even if you had qualms with it.

I never read a single post of that thread after I posted that admonition but it seemed to just continue on, even after the book got better.

Actions have consequences.

[Andrea Cuneo]

Hallo everybody!
I'm Andrea Cuneo, the penciler of the last 7 pages of this book.
First I have to apologize for my poor english but it's not mt mother language because I live and work in Italy and those pages were my first ever pencils for the american comicdom.
I've read your posts and replys and I'm really glad to see that you liked our work so much and that maybe you would like to see more about the first Shadowman.
I simply came here to have an honest review from you about my draws because I want to improve myself to give you the best work possible.
Thank you guys and here is a little gift for all the first Shadowman fans!

[Peter]

Hello Andrea and welcome.

Thank you so very much for your pencils, they are stunning and really set the mood for the last part of the issue.

I am quite sure their are many others on this forum who can give you a much more professional critique of your work than I could, but I am sure there will be many very favourable comments.