is Valiant "different"?

[cjv]

A post I made on a previous thread about the lack of "hype" surrounding Valiant this iteration (as opposed to what we saw in the early 90s) got me thinking about how Valiant compares to other comic book companies.

In the 90s, Valiant struck me as "different" than other companies in terms of the comics they produced. While they certainly weren't the only good comics, the "feel" of the comics just seemed very different from what was being produced by the other major companies. They had incredibly tight continuity. They had character driven stories (not event driven, or art driven). They had things that actually happened and changed (characters died, time passed, etc.). The "world outside your window" seemed real (both in terms of how the character reacted, and how the stories were written). I remember the first two Valiant comics I read - Archer and Armstrong 0 and Shadowman 1 - and I remember thinking to myself "WOW!", and thinking that this wasn't like anything else I had read at the time.

This year around it doesn't have the same feel to me. Yes, the stories are really good for the most part. Yet, there is a tight contnuity. Yes, things are moving along, and you get the feeling of a story being moved forward. But they don't seem to be as different from the other comics that are being published today (at least the ones that I read, and I admit, I don't read that many).

Is there something different in Valiant this time around, that separates them from the crowd? Or has the comic book changed and overall there is more quality and diversity in comics produced? Is Valiant "missing" that thing that made them stand out from the competition during first go around? If so, what is it, and will it hurt them? Do they need to be as different from the rest?

[lorddunlow]

I think it is that comics in general are of better quality. This is thanks, in part, to Valiant of the 90s, as well as DC's Vertigo line and Image with their ability to give creators a lot of freedom.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. I do think that VEI does stand out due to the quality of storytelling, but not as much as Valiant did in the 90s when, let's face it, most of the comics being release were pretty-looking garbage.

[BugsySig]

I think they are definitely more mature reads than the Big 2, but there is not that same delineation as in the 90s. VALIANT then wasn't just about the stories or characters--which were of much higher quality--it was a brand that had a house art style and coloring that made you recognize that every book was connected because they "looked" the same.

There was no question you were reading a VALIANT comic. Every scene in every issue was time stamped. The covers all represented something inside that issue. And the "voice" of the VALIANT universe, regardless of what book you were reading, felt the same.

Most, if not all, of that comes down to Jim Shooter. I don't think you can operate like that in today's world, but it is what made VALIANT stand out.

Today, if there is anything that makes VEI stand out, it is the overall quality of the line. Marvel and DC may have just as many quality titles, but those are a small percentage of their overall production. Those two mishandle so many properties, or produce so many *SQUEE* books, it leaves a lot to be desired.

[400yrs]

As others have said, no they aren't really "different" this time because comics are so much better today than in the nineties.

One way they could differentiate themselves is fan interaction which they definitely do through social media, but they don't even have a letter column (probably due to a lack of letters). I find that a good percentage of the books I read that are fantastic have a letter column. I think it helps get readers of the comic more involved (even just by being able to read the letters to get the insight from the creators). Superior spiderman, hawk eye, saga Twd, invincible, chew and others all have letter columns. It gets people passionate about the storylines.

You think having Fred van Lente answer letters about general redacted wouldn't be hilarious and get readers more passionate and more involved?

That's one spot where I feel they've missed an opportunity.

[ckb]

I think we are in an era where everyone but the big two has historically failed to make a superhero universe, but the non-hero graphic storytelling has taken off, spawning TV and movie and general pop culture interest. The market followed that success.

My opinion about what is holding VEI back from greater success is the expectation by the marketplace that they will fail.

VEI is definitely different. Read Harbinger then read X-Men.

IMHO.

[wrunow]

I think it's the art that makes you feel that way pretty much. VALIANT was in the 90's pretty much the "anti-Image" house that put storytelling and writing above all else. The big name artists that were at VALIANT at the time BWS, Layton, etc, mostly worked in a mentoring mode for the young talent that was learning at the time like David Lapham. Even by the standards of the early 90's, in most cases VALIANT was a readers book. Of course there were exceptions like the BWS covers, but the block panel layout was all Shooter wanted at that time.

Dinesh and company have told their new stories with not only great writing, but up to date modern style artwork. Are there some things and storylines I don't care for? Sure, but I am really happy for the most part and find the creativity and quality of storytelling being put out by VEI to be exceptional.

[vaevictis]

Also take into account that WE are different too. Ever have a cartoon you use to watch as a kid that you thought was awesome, but then you watch it again as an adult and it seemed less exciting? While I still enjoy the VH1 books, they don't all read the same to me anymore.

[krylox]

After roughly 18 months of publishing I'd say: No, it's not. And it's what I was trying to say with this thread.

When I got back into comics roughly half year ago and found out about the reboot I was pretty psyched about it. I bought everything they released up until then and was very happy that they stayed close to the original concepts. Now, six months later, I have the feeling it feels more and more like super-professionally made fan-fiction. It's the same feeling that I get from most of the stuff Marvel&DC is publishing. Ancient characters and stories get a new spin, but that's it. They stay very close to the core concept but can't really transcend it into something new and exciting.

I think you guys are right, that the books are mostly quite well done and every series for itself has a (at least) decent quality. Harbinger may even be one of the best superhero series on the stands. But they don't add up to something bigger than that.

I think what they're really missing is a creative architect for the universe. The only really interesting new universes launched since the old Marvel days are probably the original Valiant by Shooter and Moore's America's Best Comics. Both benefited from very strong storytellers who, in their world- and mythbuilding, showed a distinct style, a distinct touch, a very creative vision.

I can't see that vision in the VEI and won't continue buying books, just because I have fond feelings for some characters I read about when I was younger. That's why, right now, I'm only pulling Harbinger and Archer&Armstrong, waiting for Gage&Dysart to take over Bloodshot and otherwise got rather skeptical of the announced releases.

In VEI's defense, one has to admit that it's probably just a impossible thing to do: the reboot which stays true to the original concept and makes radical and innovative changes at the same time.

[GGSAE]

I don't think it's fair to say any company is different. The entertainment medium has evolved between now and then; the games on a current 4 yr old smartphone are more sophisticated than 90s home consoles/pc games. We're talking about an age, where mediocre comic books were competing with board games and home movies. I've gone back and read some VH1, using my expectations of today's entertainment utility, I wasn't overly impressed. Keeping them on a pull-list would be a coin flip.

[kjjohanson]

Also take into account that WE are different too. Ever have a cartoon you use to watch as a kid that you thought was awesome, but then you watch it again as an adult and it seemed less exciting?

Still awesome:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOwhrCkMiKA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Phoenix8008]

As others have said, I think VEI is 'different' still, but not by as wide a margin as Valiant was in the 90's. Having just re-read all 12 parts of the Harbinger Wars crossover, I can't tell you how much I was wishing for little time-stamp boxes to help organize the issues into a more perfect reading order. (I did this with my old Magnus/Rai/Psi-lords books. They're all mixed together in chronological order so that all the 4001 books read as one giant story. ITS AWESOME!)

[Carson]

These four points ring true for me:

We are all older, more cynical and less easily impressed

They are missing an opportunity to connect through a letters page and/or a letter from the chief (like shooter's old valiant column)

The quality of comics as a whole has risen, the the gap between Valiant and the rest has narrowed.

They are better book for book than the big two.

[kjjohanson]

They are missing an opportunity to connect through a letters page and/or a letter from the chief (like shooter's old valiant column)

I imagine the problem with this right now is that they're still small, and it takes time for a person to read through letters to find ones suitable for publication, and also to respond to them. Perhaps when they get to that point where they have enough books out that the workload exceeds the capacity for the current staff and they need to hire additional people, we'll see a letters page appear.

[Aram]

They are better book for book than the big two.

This.


I was just talking about this with my wife yesterday. How there just aren't that many "good" comics out today. I said; It's pretty much all fluff for the most part and nothing stays good except TWD saga and Valiant. Granted I don't read much else out there, so I'm sure there are other great titles that stay good, but these stand out to me now and are the ones I know.

I say Valiant is different. I say this because everything I've seen so far labels them as "Solid" line wide. No other company has that from what I've seen so far. There are things I straight hate in the new books, however as a whole every title so far seems to redeems itself as I move on. Some parts the story may lack a little, some parts the art may lack a little, but through everything the down times seem short and it has been brought around every time in my opinion, at least so far.

[lorddunlow]

They are better book for book than the big two.

This.


I was just talking about this with my wife yesterday. How there just aren't that many "good" comics out today. I said; It's pretty much all fluff for the most part and nothing stays good except TWD saga and Valiant. Granted I don't read much else out there, so I'm sure there are other great titles that stay good, but these stand out to me now and are the ones I know.

I say Valiant is different. I say this because everything I've seen so far labels them as "Solid" line wide. No other company has that from what I've seen so far. There are things I straight hate in the new books, however as a whole every title so far seems to redeems itself as I move on. Some parts the story may lack a little, some parts the art may lack a little, but through everything the down times seem short and it has been brought around every time in my opinion, at least so far.

I would say that there are actually a lot of really great books out there now. My pull list has 12-14 books on it right now, and there is not a single book that I don't absolutely love and get excited for every week it releases. However, there is even more garbage. I would say the ratio of great books to garbage is very very low. But there is no shortage of great.

[Phoenix8008]

I'd say that Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers were good books, I just had to stop getting them this month due to more important Valiant titles coming out soon. Hickman is one of the exceptions to the rules though. He has like a 3 year plan of where he is taking the story as opposed to many books which just seem to be made up as they go from arc to arc.

[mateo107]

I think the original Valiant had some great market advantages when they first launched. Marvel had just suffered a huge brain drain of artists jumping ship to Image and Shooter going to Valiant. up until then, there had never been a serious 3rd party contender, Marvel and DC only had to worry about losing their talent to each other. Valiant and Image were ahead of the game and Marvel and DC were catching up, without big-name writers and artists (except on the X-books), and with lesser quality paper and printing.

when VEI launched, the opposite was true. Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld were both back at DC, and the big two had most of the talent again. nowadays, every publisher uses glossy paper, full bleed margins, and digital coloring, so it's harder to make a new brand stand out. the original Valiant was so successful that everybody tried to be like them. while the Big 2 weren't underperforming this time, though, it was still an opportune moment to re-launch a comic book line. the market has never been better since the 90's, and it seems like every character ever published (Vampirella, Evil Ernie, Dark Shadows, Transformers, Mars Attacks???) is back in print now.

[kjjohanson]

I think the original Valiant had some great market advantages when they first launched. Marvel had just suffered a huge brain drain of artists jumping ship to Image and Shooter going to Valiant. up until then, there had never been a serious 3rd party contender, Marvel and DC only had to worry about losing their talent to each other. Valiant and Image were ahead of the game and Marvel and DC were catching up, without big-name writers and artists (except on the X-books), and with lesser quality paper and printing.

when VEI launched, the opposite was true. Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld were both back at DC, and the big two had most of the talent again. nowadays, every publisher uses glossy paper, full bleed margins, and digital coloring, so it's harder to make a new brand stand out. the original Valiant was so successful that everybody tried to be like them. while the Big 2 weren't underperforming this time, though, it was still an opportune moment to re-launch a comic book line. the market has never been better since the 90's, and it seems like every character ever published (Vampirella, Evil Ernie, Dark Shadows, Transformers, Mars Attacks???) is back in print now.

I do wonder how much of this is the result of the 20-year nostalgia cycle.

[cjv]

It could also very well be what I was reading then (schlock) versus now, so perhaps Valiant simply stood out in my mind more then because I wasn't reading other good books.

[Peter]

I remember really enjoying the Valiant titles during the early 90's, and at that time I was getting marvel, early Dark Horse, and Vertigo and some various independents. I agree Valiant struck a chord with me for it's storytelling and cohesiveness. I think I lost the urge to pick up the titles as I wasn't enjoying the later stories. I later enjoyed a few of the Crossgen titles, to me it had a Valiant feel about it, but all the while reading from the big two.

The latest release of Valiant titles has well and truly drawn me back in again, and even though for a while the only titles I read were X-O, and A & A (I am now reading all but Q & W) The feel of something special is still there, the storytelling is up there with the best, I have read quite a few Dynamite titles, and though I have enjoyed many of them, they seem a bit light, the Marvel characters actually feel to me as sort of bogged down in trying so hard to escape their past that they are beginning to feel unrecognisable, and what they have done to Hellblazer and Jonah Hex makes me cringe. Dark horse have me still with some of their titles, namely Conan and some Star Wars, but the books I really look forward to are the ones I love to read as soon as I get home, and at the moment these are Saga, TWD, Wild Blue Yonder and all Valiant.

It seems strange to me that all the Valiant titles are the ones I really look forward to, ask me in a year if this is still true and I may have a different answer, but these characters are well written and the art, well that is very good too, but we can see that across all comic book companies, as well I guess there are many very good story driven titles out there ( a lot I don't get to read), but just not from one company.

At this moment though, for mine, the anticipation of the stories that are coming out of Valiant, across it's current titles and soon to be released titles, is very exciting. Maybe there is a sense of deja vu, maybe it's just the basic principle, good stories and good artwork, but in any case I feel as if Valiant is different and this probably sounds real corny but it also feels as if there is a real vested interest in their characters, maybe I am just smitten.

Anyhow I'm going to enjoy the ride, yeah I reckon Valiant is different, and it wont be long before many more will feel this way

[buff-beardo]

Yes, I think the new Valiant is different but I think it has to be so. The original Valiant run was amongst the best of times for me. The early 90's, what a good time! "Young, dumb, and full....". I was in high school, grunge was breaking, and comics were peaking. Anything seemed possible. It was a once in a lifetime experience. That's how it was for me anyhow. lol.

[doodlebird]

I was there for the birth of Valiant, and it was so fun. I had read the big two since I could read (early 70's), and it was okay- some good and a lot of cheese. When Valiant came it was very cool, it was being there for the birth of Marvel, but done even better (hey they had already got to see Stan and Jack do it well) ! I had enjoyed when Indy companies like Pacific, Epic, and the lot came, out with very limited success. So this was great to see it done by Valiant so well and receive such support. Sure other companies where popping out as well (notably Image) and the business was booming, but Valiant was awesomely done. It was done much like Shooter tried (and failed) with Marvel's New Universe. Shooter and the crew had learned and had more vision and supportive talent this time.
Anyway it was swallowed by the greed and bust of the times (and maybe a bit too much infighting with Shooter and crew). So it limped along, still putting out some good stories, but no longer the universe it was. Shooter and Starlin may have been able to fix it with Unity 2000, but again money screwed it from happening.
So now we have the -ugh word- reboot of the Valiant universe (sans the Gold Key characters), and it is great. It may not be as fun (great, just not as much fun) yet, but we are still walking the fine line between having the feel of the original universe and making it a new one. So for me as long as it keeps being so well written and drawn that i will support and enjoy it all.
I feel given the support this can be the best comic company again, it has proven much worth and points well tothe future so far. I hope their funds are enough to grow it, more community involvement like mentioned here and done back in the old Valiant days should definitely be pursued. Long Live Valiant !

[leonmallett]

I think it's the art that makes you feel that way pretty much. VALIANT was in the 90's pretty much the "anti-Image" house that put storytelling and writing above all else. The big name artists that were at VALIANT at the time BWS, Layton, etc, mostly worked in a mentoring mode for the young talent that was learning at the time like David Lapham. Even by the standards of the early 90's, in most cases VALIANT was a readers book. Of course there were exceptions like the BWS covers, but the block panel layout was all Shooter wanted at that time.

Dinesh and company have told their new stories with not only great writing, but up to date modern style artwork. Are there some things and storylines I don't care for? Sure, but I am really happy for the most part and find the creativity and quality of storytelling being put out by VEI to be exceptional.

Not much to add except "Agreed.".

[wrunow]

I think it's the art that makes you feel that way pretty much. VALIANT was in the 90's pretty much the "anti-Image" house that put storytelling and writing above all else. The big name artists that were at VALIANT at the time BWS, Layton, etc, mostly worked in a mentoring mode for the young talent that was learning at the time like David Lapham. Even by the standards of the early 90's, in most cases VALIANT was a readers book. Of course there were exceptions like the BWS covers, but the block panel layout was all Shooter wanted at that time.

Dinesh and company have told their new stories with not only great writing, but up to date modern style artwork. Are there some things and storylines I don't care for? Sure, but I am really happy for the most part and find the creativity and quality of storytelling being put out by VEI to be exceptional.

Not much to add except "Agreed.".

I'm glad you've been converted from a "doubter" to a "believer";)

[Baramos]

With the rise of Vertigo titles, Image, etc. I think comic books have matured to the point that while Valiant is still unique, it's no longer necessarily a "go-to" for that sort of realism. On the other hand, when talking about an interconnected universe ala DC and Marvel, no other company has that sort of interconnected universe thing going AND the same level of "maturity" in its storytelling (i.e. willingness to kill characters, deal with real-world themes and problems and issues, etc.)

On the other hand, Valiant still has roots in a certain level of "escapism" with superheroes, whereas with Vertigo, Image, etc. you see mostly comics dealing with things completely outside the superhereo genre.