Harbinger #15 Discussion

[The Dirt Gang]

There's no law saying Torque and Kris have to be Magnus's parents. His parents could be anybody in the new Valiant so I don't think it's an official statement of disinterest in the Gold Key characters.

Yes, I realize that they can tweak things any way they want to. But if you did want to send a firm message that says "not interested" this is how you'd do it.

But why even send that message? Doesn't make sense. I'm sure they'd be interested if the deal was right. No need to burn a bridge. I think you're overthinking it and this is in absolute no way related to whether VEI is interested in the GK characters. This is all about the story and the characters, not about sending some message to Classic Media. They could do that with an email.

I think the message is "We aren't the old Valiant" and I think it is a brilliant way to say it. First Dysart makes you think they are going to hook up (a clear nod to VH1) and instead she bashes his face in. I don't think it's a message to Classic Media, I think it's just a message that they are going to do it their way regardless of what's come before.

[lorddunlow]

There's no law saying Torque and Kris have to be Magnus's parents. His parents could be anybody in the new Valiant so I don't think it's an official statement of disinterest in the Gold Key characters.

Yes, I realize that they can tweak things any way they want to. But if you did want to send a firm message that says "not interested" this is how you'd do it.

But why even send that message? Doesn't make sense. I'm sure they'd be interested if the deal was right. No need to burn a bridge. I think you're overthinking it and this is in absolute no way related to whether VEI is interested in the GK characters. This is all about the story and the characters, not about sending some message to Classic Media. They could do that with an email.

I think the message is "We aren't the old Valiant" and I think it is a brilliant way to say it. First Dysart makes you think they are going to hook up (a clear nod to VH1) and instead she bashes his face in. I don't think it's a message to Classic Media, I think it's just a message that they are going to do it their way regardless of what's come before.

+1 Dysart was clearly sending that message.

[Phoenix8008]

There's no law saying Torque and Kris have to be Magnus's parents. His parents could be anybody in the new Valiant so I don't think it's an official statement of disinterest in the Gold Key characters.

Yes, I realize that they can tweak things any way they want to. But if you did want to send a firm message that says "not interested" this is how you'd do it.

But why even send that message? Doesn't make sense. I'm sure they'd be interested if the deal was right. No need to burn a bridge. I think you're overthinking it and this is in absolute no way related to whether VEI is interested in the GK characters. This is all about the story and the characters, not about sending some message to Classic Media. They could do that with an email.

I think the message is "We aren't the old Valiant" and I think it is a brilliant way to say it. First Dysart makes you think they are going to hook up (a clear nod to VH1) and instead she bashes his face in. I don't think it's a message to Classic Media, I think it's just a message that they are going to do it their way regardless of what's come before.

+1 Dysart was clearly sending that message.

I'm cool with that message being sent, as long as Torque isn't actually dead. I REALLY want to see more character development out of him! I wouldn't say he's my favorite character in Harbinger, but he's the biggest unknown with the most potential for exploring the depths of his situation. Although the same could be said for all of the team in one way or another.

[lorddunlow]

I'm cool with that message being sent, as long as Torque isn't actually dead. I REALLY want to see more character development out of him! I wouldn't say he's my favorite character in Harbinger, but he's the biggest unknown with the most potential for exploring the depths of his situation. Although the same could be said for all of the team in one way or another.

Unfortunately, I think his potential is exactly why he is dead. Everyone was impressed by the new iteration of Torque. I actually made a lengthy post after Harbinger #8 stating that there was no way that Dysart would be killing Torque in the same way as VH1 - it would have to be another renegade that dies. He is just too interesting as a character. That is why Dysart is evil, and a genius. I believe this idea was in his pitch. I believe when VEI brass heard it, they knew this was their guy. What better way to differentiate VEI from VH1 than this move which pays tribute to VH1 but utterly blows the original events and concepts out of the water.

Torque is dead. Mourn for such an awesome character... and know that no one (no one) is safe in the VEI universe. Ninjak could die in Unity. Aric could die and another take his place in the armor. Anything goes. It is awesome.

Bravo, Dysart. Bravo, VEI.

[The Dirt Gang]

I'm cool with that message being sent, as long as Torque isn't actually dead. I REALLY want to see more character development out of him! I wouldn't say he's my favorite character in Harbinger, but he's the biggest unknown with the most potential for exploring the depths of his situation. Although the same could be said for all of the team in one way or another.

I hear what you're saying. I liked his character and think there is a lot to explore with him. However, I'm reminded of a letters column in the early days of Savage Dragon where a fan was complaining that Erik Larsen was killing off really cool characters. Larsen asked if the fan would rather him create crappy characters to kill. Larsen's point was he tries to create great characters and sometimes they have to die as well.

I don't like seeing Torque dead but I think it's necessary at this point. It's a cop out if he's still alive and I hope VEI only creates great characters and some of them will have to die.

[Heath]

lorddunlow, I believe you are hitting the nail on the head with great precision.

[jmatt]

I'm cool with that message being sent, as long as Torque isn't actually dead. I REALLY want to see more character development out of him! I wouldn't say he's my favorite character in Harbinger, but he's the biggest unknown with the most potential for exploring the depths of his situation. Although the same could be said for all of the team in one way or another.

Unfortunately, I think his potential is exactly why he is dead. Everyone was impressed by the new iteration of Torque. I actually made a lengthy post after Harbinger #8 stating that there was no way that Dysart would be killing Torque in the same way as VH1 - it would have to be another renegade that dies. He is just too interesting as a character. That is why Dysart is evil, and a genius. I believe this idea was in his pitch. I believe when VEI brass heard it, they knew this was their guy. What better way to differentiate VEI from VH1 than this move which pays tribute to VH1 but utterly blows the original events and concepts out of the water.

Torque is dead. Mourn for such an awesome character... and know that no one (no one) is safe in the VEI universe. Ninjak could die in Unity. Aric could die and another take his place in the armor. Anything goes. It is awesome.

Bravo, Dysart. Bravo, VEI.

I'll bet you a Harbinger #1 Gold that Torque isn't dead. Deal?

Edit: And to cover my bet, I just bought one on Ebay (since I don't already own one).

[lorddunlow]

I'm cool with that message being sent, as long as Torque isn't actually dead. I REALLY want to see more character development out of him! I wouldn't say he's my favorite character in Harbinger, but he's the biggest unknown with the most potential for exploring the depths of his situation. Although the same could be said for all of the team in one way or another.

Unfortunately, I think his potential is exactly why he is dead. Everyone was impressed by the new iteration of Torque. I actually made a lengthy post after Harbinger #8 stating that there was no way that Dysart would be killing Torque in the same way as VH1 - it would have to be another renegade that dies. He is just too interesting as a character. That is why Dysart is evil, and a genius. I believe this idea was in his pitch. I believe when VEI brass heard it, they knew this was their guy. What better way to differentiate VEI from VH1 than this move which pays tribute to VH1 but utterly blows the original events and concepts out of the water.

Torque is dead. Mourn for such an awesome character... and know that no one (no one) is safe in the VEI universe. Ninjak could die in Unity. Aric could die and another take his place in the armor. Anything goes. It is awesome.

Bravo, Dysart. Bravo, VEI.

I'll bet you a Harbinger #1 Gold that Torque isn't dead. Deal?

Edit: And to cover my bet, I just bought one on Ebay (since I don't already own one).

I'll take that bet, but I don't have a copy. What can I offer in return?

[FormerReader]

I'll take that bet, but I don't have a copy. What can I offer in return?

Semi-nude TPB review.

[jmatt]

I'll take that bet, but I don't have a copy. What can I offer in return?

This would be the perfect excuse to buy one. I found mine on Ebay for $35.

[lorddunlow]

I'll take that bet, but I don't have a copy. What can I offer in return?

This would be the perfect excuse to buy one. I found mine on Ebay for $35.

I'm in. I'll let you know when I get a copy.

[Phoenix8008]

Not positive if somebody already brought this up or not. If not, then it's...

More fuel for the fire...

******Spoilers from the future (a.k.a. the November Solicitations for VEI)*********















Harbinger # 18 - variant cover by Andrew Robinson shows only Peter, Faith, and Flamingo with the Bleeding Monk floating above them but translucent as if not really real.

The description of the issue is as follows: "Scattered across their own mental landscapes, each one of the remaining Renegades must quest to unite with the others or be lost forever inside themselves. It will take courage, strength, imagination and an unwavering belief in one another if they're going to discover the dark truth behind their Perfect Day."

I know VEI covers are notorius for not accurately portraying anything to do with the content of the story in said issue, but that description seems added to that cover seems to point towards Torque AND Kris being gone. I've seen alot of people willing to lose Torque, but what if both Torque and Kris are both gone from the series?! Hope they're both okay by the end of this.

[jmatt]

I'm in. I'll let you know when I get a copy.

Here's my thinking on why it won't be for reals, as they say: If it is for real, forget about what it does to Torque and think about what it does to the character of Kris, and by extension, the entire group of Renegades.

If it turns out that Kris, for whatever reason or by whatever manipulation, murdered not just a cripple but her own team mate in cold blood, that severely limits whatever empathy readers could have for her moving forward. It means readers will be waiting for her to either leave the group or receive her comeuppance. It's the death not just of Torque but of Kris' character.

Now, that's a pretty heavy dynamic to lay on a group of kids that the author wants readers to cheer for. It would be a fascinating turn in direction for the book... but is VEI willing to go there? That's a BOLD decision, if so; one I am willing to bet they won't make.

I can see them deciding to off Torque like they did in VH1. But I am not willing to buy that it comes from the hands of Kris. She was so integral to the original series, I can't see VEI taking her out of the mix just 12 issues in. And it'd mean the end of whatever romantic angles they could have had with her for Peter.

BTW, I composed this before the above post about November solicitations.

[bygranddesign]

Yeah Jmat should have probably read that solicit before making that bet

I wouldn't read much into the cover

But the "remaining members part" is a pretty good indication that someone is gone - prob torque

But .. Hey .. You never know .. Could be just a head fake

[jmatt]

Yeah Jmat should have probably read that solicit before making that bet

I wouldn't read much into the cover

But the "remaining members part" is a pretty good indication that someone is gone - prob torque

But .. Hey .. You never know .. Could be just a head fake

This is gonna be interesting and the wager makes it even moreso. We shall see... Perhaps I should have made the bet that it wouldn't be Kris that killed Torque, since that's the part I'd be shocked to see.

[lorddunlow]

I'm in. I'll let you know when I get a copy.

Here's my thinking on why it won't be for reals, as they say: If it is for real, forget about what it does to Torque and think about what it does to the character of Kris, and by extension, the entire group of Renegades.

If it turns out that Kris, for whatever reason or by whatever manipulation, murdered not just a cripple but her own team mate in cold blood, that severely limits whatever empathy readers could have for her moving forward. It means readers will be waiting for her to either leave the group or receive her comeuppance. It's the death not just of Torque but of Kris' character.

Now, that's a pretty heavy dynamic to lay on a group of kids that the author wants readers to cheer for. It would be a fascinating turn in direction for the book... but is VEI willing to go there? That's a BOLD decision, if so; one I am willing to bet they won't make.

I can see them deciding to off Torque like they did in VH1. But I am not willing to buy that it comes from the hands of Kris. She was so integral to the original series, I can't see VEI taking her out of the mix just 12 issues in. And it'd mean the end of whatever romantic angles they could have had with her for Peter.

BTW, I composed this before the above post about November solicitations.

Knowing what we know about Dysart, I wouldn't be surprised at all. It would also be the perfect parallel to Pete's horrible actions in issue #1 (or 2 - I can't quite remember). It would put them on an even playing field. It might actually be what brings them together.

Also just had a thought: What if Peter - with his psychic connections - is somehow manipulating Kris subconsciously. He is taking out his competition - not that this is something he would do consciously, but he may be in a state where the id is controlling him.

[MoonChild]

I don't think it'll end up that dark but torque may in fact end up dead anyway or he goes back to being a crippled & off the team (for now)

[CallMeBloodshot]

Going to bring this up because CBR reviews have finally bothered me enough:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... ew&id=6350" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reviews like this make me think the reviewer hasn't been reading the book all along. She never considers the mind control angle, assuming Kris is acting based on PTSD Have you no idea these characters are psiots?

"This book sacrifices too much character development" Lol. This site has been rough on good solid comics before and praises garbage. This is the worst comic review site. Just wanted to say that. That is all

[NapoleonBlownapart]

Going to bring this up because CBR reviews have finally bothered me enough:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... ew&id=6350" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reviews like this make me think the reviewer hasn't been reading the book all along. She never considers the mind control angle, assuming Kris is acting based on PTSD Have you no idea these characters are psiots?

"This book sacrifices too much character development" Lol. This site has been rough on good solid comics before and praises garbage. This is the worst comic review site. Just wanted to say that. That is all

CBR's reviews suck. All Marvel has to do is make another redundant Avengers title and CBR drops a bunch of 5-star reviews all over the floor.

[The Dirt Gang]

Knowing what we know about Dysart, I wouldn't be surprised at all. It would also be the perfect parallel to Pete's horrible actions in issue #1 (or 2 - I can't quite remember). It would put them on an even playing field. It might actually be what brings them together.

Also just had a thought: What if Peter - with his psychic connections - is somehow manipulating Kris subconsciously. He is taking out his competition - not that this is something he would do consciously, but he may be in a state where the id is controlling him.

I had the same thought, lorddunlow. We've already seen Dysart take one of our "heroes" into some very dark territory. Kris' actions would be more easily forgiven if someone is controlling her. I do think the ramifications on her psyche would be huge and make the series even darker than it's been, i.e. did Pete rape Kris, Joe's death, Harada injecting nanites into one of his own. I have a hard time believing they'd kill off both characters especially given that Kris is the only non-psiot in the group. She adds a different and interesting dynamic.

In this Valiant universe, I can't see Kris ever being interested in Torque for a number of reason, so I don't think he's competition. As well, we've been given a glimpse that Kris might be a lesbian or at the very least bi-sexual. Having a gay member in the group would be a nice nod to VH1 Peter's debated sexuality. Not to mention, if it was Kris it would really add to the tension between Pete and Kris and his feelings for her. Although, I'm not convinced that his feelings are necessarily romantic. Didn't he seek her out b/c she was associated with a good memory for him? To me at this point it's as much about acceptance as romantic feelings.

[Blood of Heroes]

Knowing what we know about Dysart, I wouldn't be surprised at all. It would also be the perfect parallel to Pete's horrible actions in issue #1 (or 2 - I can't quite remember). It would put them on an even playing field. It might actually be what brings them together.

Also just had a thought: What if Peter - with his psychic connections - is somehow manipulating Kris subconsciously. He is taking out his competition - not that this is something he would do consciously, but he may be in a state where the id is controlling him.

I had the same thought, lorddunlow. We've already seen Dysart take one of our "heroes" into some very dark territory. Kris' actions would be more easily forgiven if someone is controlling her. I do think the ramifications on her psyche would be huge and make the series even darker than it's been, i.e. did Pete rape Kris, Joe's death, Harada injecting nanites into one of his own. I have a hard time believing they'd kill off both characters especially given that Kris is the only non-psiot in the group. She adds a different and interesting dynamic.

In this Valiant universe, I can't see Kris ever being interested in Torque for a number of reason, so I don't think he's competition. As well, we've been given a glimpse that Kris might be a lesbian or at the very least bi-sexual. Having a gay member in the group would be a nice nod to VH1 Peter's debated sexuality. Not to mention, if it was Kris it would really add to the tension between Pete and Kris and his feelings for her. Although, I'm not convinced that his feelings are necessarily romantic. Didn't he seek her out b/c she was associated with a good memory for him? To me at this point it's as much about acceptance as romantic feelings.

I don't think Kris is gay, or even bisexual. Sometimes some girls end up making out with their friends when they are out partying. It's not surprising that Charlene initiated the kiss, she is a former amateur porn star. It also isn't that surprising that Kris enjoyed the kiss. Kissing girls is awesome! Who wants to kiss a dude? Nobody, that's who.

[Heath]

Sometimes some girls end up making out with their friends when they are out partying. It's not surprising that Charlene initiated the kiss, she is a former amateur porn star. It also isn't that surprising that Kris enjoyed the kiss. Kissing girls is awesome! Who wants to kiss a dude? Nobody, that's who.

I think that's the best post I've ever read on this board.

[The Dirt Gang]

Kissing girls is awesome!

+infinity

Hey, I'm not one to label anyone's sexuality. If you're not hurting anyone, then I've got no problem with you. Kris is just a girl in this world, experiencing life.

Of course, girls like kissing other girls. I also know for a fact that they enjoy pillow fighting in negligee, mud wrestling and wet t-shirt contests.

[Blood of Heroes]

Sometimes some girls end up making out with their friends when they are out partying. It's not surprising that Charlene initiated the kiss, she is a former amateur porn star. It also isn't that surprising that Kris enjoyed the kiss. Kissing girls is awesome! Who wants to kiss a dude? Nobody, that's who.

I think that's the best post I've ever read on this board.

Thanks Heath.

[Shadowman99]

Whilst we're on the subject, I've suspected all along that Kris was gay, mostly based off what we see of her in issue #1 and the contents of her bookshelf in whatever issue that was in. Thought Dysart just hadn't really bothered to write it into the story much.

I guess I have to be the only person to say that this issue really didn't cut it for me. I thought the art was lazy and spending the whole issue repeatedly thinking "What the hell?" just frustrated me. Kind of felt like I'd wasted my money on this particular issue to be honest, but I realise that this issue is only ever going to work when read in context with the following issue(s), so I'm hoping that whatever comes next will help bring some relevance to issue #15. I'm saying more or less that I can probably only really accept this as a good issue once I've seen how it relates to the bigger picture, and then be able to agree with some of the stuff that's been said in this thread so far about how great the writing is and how good the plot twists and turns are in retrospect. But as a standalone issue, it was just a whole load of "wtf?!", which didn't really make for an enjoyable read.

for the next issue to shed some light on things.