The new Valiant - no revolution but a restoration

[krylox]

i'm krylox, from germany. i discovered valiant when i was 14 with eternal warrior #1 and fell in love instantly. i tried to get as much as i could afford for from the pre-unity comics and soon after shooter left and valiant became just another superhero-universe if left for vertigo and indie comics. still, the original valiant experience left me branded and even years later i was googling the hell out of it and i've longed for a interesting take on the concept and the characters ever since.

so...
don't get me wrong.
i really like what vei is doing, almost everything is pretty good.
but pretty good isn't what i associate with my first valiant experience. sure, those were my formative years and everything... but even now, when i re-read some of those stories i'm still in awe how bold this attempt by shooter&crew was back in the day.

jump to: now.
the relaunch.
like i said, it's pretty good. some series are stronger, some are weaker. but iM not really talking about the talent on the books, not even the stories per se.
it's more that the concept behind the universe in general as well as for each and every book individually doesn't feel really fresh. even the biggest fans of the reboot will probably admit, that the overall concept is far from a game changer. it's correct that their version of the valiant universe is improved in many details, but it still feels kind of stiff and unoriginal. i guess it's ok for die-hard fans of the original characters, but what used to be fascinating about valiant back in the day (mainly pre-unity) was the sheer watchmen-ian quality and unpredictability of their world-building. valiant early 90s was a child of what dc's pre-vertigo series and concepts were experimenting on in the late 80s: realism, surrealism/deconstructionism and basically the question "how can we do superheroes without insulting the intelligence of our aging audience". or how can we do entertaining "science-fiction based adventure-comics for grown-ups".

we did have a pretty good valiant in the nineties and you can buy those issues for little money on ebay. i don't see why we need them re-envisioned and redrawn when they used to be pretty ace in the first place (why else would this forum be existing if they weren't).

what i really want to express is that what used to be valiant biggest asset was innovation and a "breaking-the-rules" attitude or let's call it revolutionary - cause it really was. and that i barely see that in the new valiant universe. i was really hoping the whole reboot will find a distinctive take, an own voice... but vei's premise seems to be more a restaurative one "let's stay as true to the old concepts as we can and only improve them a bit". which is pretty nice. but gets boring after a while. if you don't take the risk, greatness isn't about to happen. just another superhero-universe with some ace books and some not-so-ace-books. after a year, i'm loosing interest in the concept already.

why ranting now, you may ask. well... unity.

i mean, come on... really? recyling a NAME for god's sake?

feels like the tipping point of an continuing recycling of old ideas. so, i get that the guys bought off the rights for a lot of money and want use every bit of identity out of it. but does really everything has to be a remake of something old? even the story-arc names (harbinger wars, unity) are recycled. why? don't we get enough reboots from the competition?


...

really sorry for the rant. a pretty awkward was to introduce myself on these boards

it's all out of passion and love for the original concept. something i share with everyone of you.

so, i'm really interested how you other old fans see the reboot after a good first year of stories...

[Paradigm38]

It's good, it's different, and hey... it is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TIME IN THE INDUSTRY. Heading past the 1st full year mark on a great course.

No GK3? Big deal. Yes, those were the intro characters for the old Valiant. Do I miss them... sure. But, the industry has shown via the Dark Horse trashing of them that those characters are just a loose fit in the modern era. Did I enjoy every Dark Horse GK3 release? You betcha (er, well, Turok suffered greatly after a fantastic first issue). But, they stand alone and as a truly "old" comic buyer, they were an anomoly that was beautiful to see in V1. It was done right at the right time back in V1.

As far as recycling anything, VEI owns the characters, names, rights, etc... XO, Ninjak, Harbinger, um... Rai, PLEASE!? ETC...

It's a business. You bet they are going to use all that richness. We as fans are better off for it.

I for one am very happy that UNITY will not be the same concept as before, and it also won't be a Secret Weapons rehash. And new, fresh characters from HWars with more to come. Good for Valiant and the fans.

[bygranddesign]

really sorry for the rant. a pretty awkward was to introduce myself on these boards

it's all out of passion and love for the original concept. something i share with everyone of you.

so, i'm really interested how you other old fans see the reboot after a good first year of stories...

welcome aboard!

Your passion is very much welcome here

I think the re-launch has been very successful with Harbinger and Archer and Armstrong in particular being the cream of the crop. I think all the other titles have had hit or miss moments for me but overall have been very enjoyable. I'm not on board just yet either with this super team Unity concept - I wish they would have just told this story within the pages of XO ... and I do regrettably have this sinking feeling of cashing in on the name brand of Unity. But then again ... I enjoy Matt Kindt so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

[kevinbastos]

I keep changing my opinion on this. Frankly, I am enjoying the risk so far. Many of the comics 'back in the day' I loved. And on the re-read, hated.

Harbinger, for example, was a product of its time. And excellent. IN THE NINETIES. On a re-read, it isn't as good anymore.

Archer & Armstrong - I find better now. And the first eleven issues were pretty danged good THEN. Now, they are even better.

From 12-ish on, they were SUCK-tastic then, and more crap-licious now!

The first eight issues of Magnus were legendarily great. 9-Unity were uh.... uh.....

I am currently re-reading Acclaim issues, and I am pleasantly surprised by some of it, and disappointed by others, but not as much as I expected to be.

The original Valiant came at a time when even garbage was revered. Acclaim came at a time when greatness was passed on. VEI is in a time when a TINY group of CRITICAL readers are enjoying comics.

Like all of us, I am ecstatic that I have something new to revere or hate.

And welcome!

[nycjadie]

I'm enjoying the new titles, but I'm not yet convinced on Unity.

First, there's the brand choice. I don't immediately think of team book, and if even if I did, I wouldn't think that Unity (or disunity) would be a good team book name. I think it's leveraging the brand for something completely different, and that could alienate fans and new customers.

Second, 5 variant covers (allegedly all pullbox as one article notes). I keep thinking of Jim Lee's X-Men #1. I dig the variant covers, but there needs to be a limit. Otherwise, fans will be alienated. They want every cover and feel alienated when they can't afford them.

Third, Matt Kindt. Seriously, I am a huge fan since Pistolwhip, but it seems like a surprising choice. It might be really good, but not the most obvious choice.

Fourth, I totally get the OPs point. I think the original Valiant had a certain magic in that it really was new. That's a difficult thing to do, but I view the new creative teams as respecting that. For example, Harbinger was the first title I read that focused on truly complicated heroes with real world issues. It was sort of like Spiderman, but even more so. I think the new Harbinger has those same attributes, but it lacks the newness of the 1990's version. It's much better written. The artwork is great. The plot much more complicated and the backstory is richer. However, the newness is not quite there, and coupled with the slick coloring, it lacks a bit of magic.

[AnthonyF]

Hi krylox, welcome to the boards! Great title to your post, by the way.

I really don't mind that VEI is reusing the 'Harbinger Wars' or Unity titles. The old stories are still there, it doesn't effect our enjoyment of them.

The VEI folks, instead of making the Harbinger Wars an earth shattering storyline, they took a familiar theme, and completely re-envisioned it. Their story followed a few small bands of characters who meet and battle over a couple days. The world doesn't end. Reality isn't remade. Heck, half the events from the covers never even happen. But it was fun! (at least for me) We got to see the titles cross over, as characters (briefly) meet. The ground work is laid for the future storylines.

X-O is my favorite character, so I'm a little biased about Unity. Sure, he is a threat! Like Superman without Truth Justice and the American way. Unity is a great title! How could they not use it, the name recognition is priceless.
(although I can't imagine reading issue 30 of the unity ongoing series...Ken Clarkson versus Alexander Dorian)

[Dallow Spicer1]

Welcome to the board Krylox and can I say how impressed I am with your English (I assume you are a German national as well as living in Germany?).

I understand your perspective on the points you've made about VH1 versus VEI and I agree that I'd like to see VEI release books with new lead characters rather than continuing to use previous concepts. That's said, the quality of the best VEI books (XO and Harbinger) is far better than its VH1 counterpart in my opinion so I'm enjoying the new material very much (except A&A and Shadowman).

[BugsySig]

Welcome to the board Krylox and can I say how impressed I am with your English (I assume you are a German national as well as living in Germany?).

I understand your perspective on the points you've made about VH1 versus VEI and I agree that I'd like to see VEI release books with new lead characters rather than continuing to use previous concepts. That's said, the quality of the best VEI books (XO and Harbinger) is far better than its VH1 counterpart in my opinion so I'm enjoying the new material very much (except A&A and Shadowman).

While I too would like to see new characters (though let's remember Bleeding Monk, Mary Maria, Darpan, Ion, Hidden Moon, Kara, Pulse, Gamma, all the Gen Zero kids, etc), we also must understand that VEI and its backers have large sums of money invested in the existing IPs. I believe they would want to see a return on their investment before moving on.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Welcome to the board Krylox and can I say how impressed I am with your English (I assume you are a German national as well as living in Germany?).

I understand your perspective on the points you've made about VH1 versus VEI and I agree that I'd like to see VEI release books with new lead characters rather than continuing to use previous concepts. That's said, the quality of the best VEI books (XO and Harbinger) is far better than its VH1 counterpart in my opinion so I'm enjoying the new material very much (except A&A and Shadowman).

While I too would like to see new characters (though let's remember Bleeding Monk, Mary Maria, Darpan, Ion, Hidden Moon, Kara, Pulse, Gamma, all the Gen Zero kids, etc), we also must understand that VEI and its backers have large sums of money invested in the existing IPs. I believe they would want to see a return on their investment before moving on.

As far as new launches are concerned I think the existing IP's (with maybe the exception of Rai) have been used as much as possible. I doubt whether Ninjak, Dr Mirage or any other property would be strong enough to carry a solo book.

I'd like them to let VDitti loose and write a new book, he's already said he'd be up for it and it would possibly be a detective/crime type book.

[bygranddesign]

Welcome to the board Krylox and can I say how impressed I am with your English (I assume you are a German national as well as living in Germany?).

I understand your perspective on the points you've made about VH1 versus VEI and I agree that I'd like to see VEI release books with new lead characters rather than continuing to use previous concepts. That's said, the quality of the best VEI books (XO and Harbinger) is far better than its VH1 counterpart in my opinion so I'm enjoying the new material very much (except A&A and Shadowman).

While I too would like to see new characters (though let's remember Bleeding Monk, Mary Maria, Darpan, Ion, Hidden Moon, Kara, Pulse, Gamma, all the Gen Zero kids, etc), we also must understand that VEI and its backers have large sums of money invested in the existing IPs. I believe they would want to see a return on their investment before moving on.

As far as new launches are concerned I think the existing IP's (with maybe the exception of Rai) have been used as much as possible. I doubt whether Ninjak, Dr Mirage or any other property would be strong enough to carry a solo book.

I'd like them to let VDitti loose and write a new book, he's already said he'd be up for it and it would possibly be a detective/crime type book.

With the right creative teams Ninjak, Dr. Mirage, amorines, psi-lords and of course Rai (i'm not sure why there would be any doubt about his potential popularity) could be successful titles. I would love brand new characters that explore new creative territory within the Valiant universe ... but that doesn't mean these original characters can't be made over to be something really interesting and exciting --- for example, why can't Dr. Mirage be re-imagined as a noir supernatural detective/crime book?

[BugsySig]

Welcome to the board Krylox and can I say how impressed I am with your English (I assume you are a German national as well as living in Germany?).

I understand your perspective on the points you've made about VH1 versus VEI and I agree that I'd like to see VEI release books with new lead characters rather than continuing to use previous concepts. That's said, the quality of the best VEI books (XO and Harbinger) is far better than its VH1 counterpart in my opinion so I'm enjoying the new material very much (except A&A and Shadowman).

While I too would like to see new characters (though let's remember Bleeding Monk, Mary Maria, Darpan, Ion, Hidden Moon, Kara, Pulse, Gamma, all the Gen Zero kids, etc), we also must understand that VEI and its backers have large sums of money invested in the existing IPs. I believe they would want to see a return on their investment before moving on.

As far as new launches are concerned I think the existing IP's (with maybe the exception of Rai) have been used as much as possible. I doubt whether Ninjak, Dr Mirage or any other property would be strong enough to carry a solo book.

I'd like them to let VDitti loose and write a new book, he's already said he'd be up for it and it would possibly be a detective/crime type book.

Well I think those characters can eventually carry a book, and there are others like Timewalker. It just takes the right creative team...But thats not the point I was getting at. I am all for new books/characters, but I would place even money that if VDitti wrote a crime/detective book that VEI would publish it as "Armed & Dangerous" or "The Grackle" or "Grave Diggers". It costs money to file new trademarks and copyrights. Why go through that if you have IPs just sitting there that you've already paid for? It just makes sense from a business perspective. No matter how little a concept might resemble the IP, if its related, then they will find a way. If I showed up with a great pitch for a space opera, I bet the name Psi-Lords would come up.

[krylox]

hey guys,

thanks a lot for the warm welcome! not one complaining about me complaining... didn't expect that.
very much appreciated.
you have some valid points there... i hope i get some of them covered.

like i said, i totally get they want to maximize their return on invest. but, in my humble opinion, if they don't start to diversify and inject some fresh blood into they endeavor... well, it could feel like this is nothing more than a management of acquired property. which may be the factual truth. but me as a fan don't want to it to feel this way.

look at what dynamite is doing with their pulp books. not that i read a lot of them - actually only properly read the first few shadow issues, but flipped through most of the other titles, just out of curiosity why anyone would think we need new comics featuring lady rawhide, black bat etc
and i'm sure that compared to their counterparts in the 40s/50s/60s those new versions feel better fleshed out, modern etc
but i guess there a few thousand people out there who really want to read the new version of lady rawhide, people who know earlier incarnations of her and are eager to see the new version.
but i don't wanna be that kind of person.

i think what got us hooked with the first batch of valiant books back in the nineties was the HOW and WHAT not necessarily the WHO. i don't think anyone cared about magnus or solar or turok when they were re-introduced but the way they were rebooted was truly bold, especially for solar. it also allowed to span a universe told over three different time intervals, which was radically new. so all in all the reboot of gold key made a lot of sense.
also, even then, the revamped properties were only a (small) part of the valiant universe with wholly new properties like a&a, eternal warrior, harbinger and rai being at least on par if not the more interesting stories and characters...

what i'm really advocating for valiant entertainment is to embrace the basic concept valiant used to stand for, namely doing superheroes/adventure comics for grown-ups, in the most realistic and modern way possible, with a thorough science-, history- and adventure-flavored feel.
i think this will be the only way to success (=bigger readership than the small audience who wants the old characters "re-envisioned").

if they can do this using some of the old valiant characters, that's great. right now, i'd say there are two books which have found their voice and even surpassed their predecessors, namely x-o and harbinger, and there a few others who just feel like pepsi max (maybe one or two in-between). not bad, but a bit bland. conceptually too close to what used to be novel the first time, but not really good enough for someone who's not reading it with a lot of nostalgia in the back of his mind.

imagine having (something like) saga, rachel rising, prophet, mind mgmt and clone sharing one universe - with harbinger, x-o and the three anni-paddas. this would feel truly valiant to me.

just my two cents.

[krylox]

just edited my last few sentences into..

imagine having (something like) saga, rachel rising, prophet, mind mgmt and clone sharing one universe - with harbinger, x-o and the three anni-paddas. this would feel truly valiant to me.

[hawkeyeps]

If I showed up with a great pitch for a space opera, I bet the name Psi-Lords would come up.

Psi-Lords the Broadway musical, it worked for Spider-man...oh wait

[kevinbastos]

I'm sure that stuff may be coming down the line. Re-read closely. While many of the stories highlight many of the old-school characters, think about all of the major and minor characters who are completely new.

Bleeding Monk, for example.

Now - I'm not saying that his character could carry a book, but...

Think about all of those characters in 2-3 years....

Remember - this is a delicate balancing act between pleasing us old folks, the never been here befores, and the prospective new kids.

And only 10,000 copies is the difference between a big hit - and a total bomb.

[jmatt]

but, in my humble opinion, if they don't start to diversify and inject some fresh blood into they endeavor... well, it could feel like this is nothing more than a management of acquired property. which may be the factual truth. but me as a fan don't want to it to feel this way.

I'm with the new guy on this. I've been saying since Day One that it's nice to see some old favorites but give us new stuff. I would be a hundred times more excited for a completely fresh character and title than seeing Hard Corps rebooted.

Yes, I get the "any re-booted title can be great as long as it gets a terrific creative team" and the "Bleeding Monk is a new character" but how about some totally new concepts in their own titles?

I'm excited to see what Unity turns out to be, but really, it's an IP looking for a justification. None of the cast is new, nor is the title. I genuinely hope it turns out great but I would have been much more excited if VEI took all that effort and money and put it into something we'd never seen before.

I mean, we're a year in and the direction of the company is already turning in on itself, in that we're finding yet another venue for even more of what we already have, and have had since 1992.

With the exception of Rai, I couldn't care less about seeing Timewalker or Armorines or Secret Weapons. Even a Ninjak reboot doesn't really excite me. Been there, done that. At a certain point, the VEI IP library becomes a chain around its neck.

[krylox]

I'm sure that stuff may be coming down the line. Re-read closely. While many of the stories highlight many of the old-school characters, think about all of the major and minor characters who are completely new.

Bleeding Monk, for example.

Now - I'm not saying that his character could carry a book, but...

Think about all of those characters in 2-3 years....

Remember - this is a delicate balancing act between pleasing us old folks, the never been here befores, and the prospective new kids.

And only 10,000 copies is the difference between a big hit - and a total bomb.

really liking the bleeding monk but he's just a supporting character.
also, waiting 2-3 years for a novel concept/character to get his/her own series is a very very long time. who knows if vei will still be around by then?
if their books don't start climbing soon, they will inevitably start to shaed readers, i mean, like almost all series do. and how long until the first cancellations? they're still the new kid in town, but it's not gonna last much longer.
and problem is, the new valiant books sell decent but they're far from being big hits. there's no book regularly in the top100, mind you. it seems most readers are former fans of the characters (including me!). it's mostly nostalgia. but nostalgia looks back - not ahead.

of course you're right. they have to balance it out, have to please the old fans first and go from there. but they should act soon. i do think that phase 2 is due by now.

just imagine shooter's valiant would have started by taking care of the old magnus, solar and turok fans first and coming up with new characters and concepts after a few years... do you think the vh1 would ever had come to fruition? do you think you would have been hooked on vh1 in the first place?

[krylox]

With the exception of Rai, I couldn't care less about seeing Timewalker and Armorines or Secret Weapons. Even a Ninjak reboot doesn't really excite me. Been there, done that. At a certain point, the VEI IP library becomes a chain around its neck.

WORD.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Hey Krylox,
The great thing about this board, is that, no matter what your opinion is, if you approach it with respect and a decent head, instead of just being an abnoxious internet troll, you too will get treated with respect, even if your opinion might not be a popular one. One of the truly special things about this board.

As for my personal opinion, this issue hasn't even registered to me. I am seriously enjoying every single title (minus Shadowman) more than any other current title being put out by any company today. In comparison to VH1, I feel that VEI is doing a great job for us old fans by staying true to some of the core concepts that we all know and love, but I feel that any new comic reader, that hasn't read VH1 will still be blown away by how awesome these books are. I know how hard the guys at VEI are working on making the best books possible, and seeing their passion really makes me want to support them. I love the books, and I'm sure that a bit further down the line, we'll see more of what you are hoping for as well. Stick with them, they're great books!

[R Daneel]

Welcome the the forums, well said and I agree with much of what you said. I'm hoping for the best because really enjoying the books so far. I'm easy to please though.

[lorddunlow]

Welcome to the board. It's fun here.
Glad you're not Canadian (this is a running board joke of mine - it's not funny, but I'm not going to stop).

I'm with you on the Unity concerns. It has been the first move of VEI that has me really worried. It just doesn't seem appealing as currently promoted, and actually (if it's bad), it could irreparably damage the other titles it crosses with.

[krylox]

thanks for the additional warm welcoming guys!

i also think the management of valiant is very capable and very much hope they see the need for action on this issue, namely developing new property. truth to be told, i was 100% sure that the next book, even unity, would be something really brand new. i was wondering if they would re-imagine some characters like solar and magnus in a whole new way and doing so avoid buying the old properties. especially magnus is crucial for bridging the universe into the future, which was a big appeal with the first valiant universe.

i guess that's where the big disappointment with the unity announcements came from in the first place. i expected a bolder move by now...

there are so many great writers nowadays... it would be so cool if the next moves wouldn't be editorial-driven but more creator-driven. let spurrier, kot or some stablished veteran like waid come up with a whole new concept.

can't wait for that to happen.

[Dallow Spicer1]

thanks for the additional warm welcoming guys!

i also think the management of valiant is very capable and very much hope they see the need for action on this issue, namely developing new property. truth to be told, i was 100% sure that the next book, even unity, would be something really brand new. i was wondering if they would re-imagine some characters like solar and magnus in a whole new way and doing so avoid buying the old properties. especially magnus is crucial for bridging the universe into the future, which was a big appeal with the first valiant universe.

i guess that's where the big disappointment with the unity announcements came from in the first place. i expected a bolder move by now...

there are so many great writers nowadays... it would be so cool if the next moves wouldn't be editorial-driven but more creator-driven. let spurrier, kot or some stablished veteran like waid come up with a whole new concept.

can't wait for that to happen.

Mark Waid!? Can I refer you to XO Manowar 'the Acclaim years'!

[kevinbastos]

Mark Waid!? Can I refer you to XO Manowar 'the Acclaim years'!

I am re-reading the Acclaim Waid stuff. The first arc was ... halfway decent?

I must be getting old.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Mark Waid!? Can I refer you to XO Manowar 'the Acclaim years'!

I am re-reading the Acclaim Waid stuff. The first arc was ... halfway decent?

I must be getting old.

I recently re-read issue 1 and at some point I'm determined to re-read all of the Acclaim stuff. However, and I may be mis-remembering this, I think Waid himself has acknowledged the Acclaim work was not his best.