valiants comic-con panel

[erwinrafael]

And lets be honest, it's not like their movies ever aim to do anything besides action or comedy. With the exception of maybe Nolan's Batman films, no Marvel or DC movies even attempt to be brave and make social or political observations. They're usually pretty mindless. Valiant comics so far, only a little over a year in, have accomplished more than that from a storytelling standpoint.

Not that I don't enjoy superhero movies. But that's the observation I'm making: the big 2 have become mindless nostalgic fun for me. But when I want thoughtful, introspective, comics with mature themes, I read Valiant.

That's a very importance difference right there. Take the Avengers and Dark Knight Rises.

Avengers was a fun romp, full of wit and action but also sparkling characterization scenes between the various cast. It was entertaining.

Dark Knight Rises continued Nolan's trend of using the mask of a superhero to engage the audience in a thoughtful, serious consideration of various political, economical, and social issues. Dark, moody, great action scenes and sparkling characterization moments. It was entertaining.

But which one was the better movie? Which model should superheroes movies generally follow?

Apples and oranges. Both are actually very good movies because they follow the model that fit them. Would you enjoy an Avengers that is dark and moody? Would you enjoy a Dark KNight movie that would follow the Avengers formula? Personally, I would not. The magic of these moves is that they found the style that fits each of them.

[Jonman]

And lets be honest, it's not like their movies ever aim to do anything besides action or comedy. With the exception of maybe Nolan's Batman films, no Marvel or DC movies even attempt to be brave and make social or political observations. They're usually pretty mindless. Valiant comics so far, only a little over a year in, have accomplished more than that from a storytelling standpoint.

Not that I don't enjoy superhero movies. But that's the observation I'm making: the big 2 have become mindless nostalgic fun for me. But when I want thoughtful, introspective, comics with mature themes, I read Valiant.

well, there are bright spots in Marvel / DC. Like Hawkeye and Datredevil for example. Valiant has not produced so far a book that approaches that level of quality.

Youre kidding right? Hawkeye is Marvel's best book, arguably for sure, but I'd contend Harby and X-O "approach that level of quality".

Anyway, I never said they didn't have some good books. My point is they are driven by the film industry, thus I wouldn't even consider them a proper comic company anymore.

Nope, Harbinger and X-O Manowar are good but not "comic book class" material like Hawkeye and Daredevil. Harbinger is close but not yet there.

Also, they are not driven by the film industry. They are a total entertainment company and the books feed off the movies and the movies feed off the books. I doubt if the American comic book industry would have survived the mess of the 1990s if the big companies remained insular from changes stimulated by changes outside the comic book industry. If Marvel did not make smart moves in relation to their movie franchises and let the 1990s bankruptcy sink them, I doubt that we would have an industry that could support a resurrection of a bankrupt company like Valiant. That's why I do not get all these hate for Marvel and DC being sellouts or something. It's a very myopic point of view.

Well I guess we disagree as to what constitutes as "comic book class", whatever that means. I will say Harby and X-O are better books than the two you've chosen.

And yes, the sheer size of their company and what drives their creative engines in the comic book industry is just whatever leads into their next movie. Hence why I don't consider them a proper comic company. Some of us like better comics.

When I said "comic book class" material, I meant material that can be used in a comic book writing or illustration course to show how to tell a story using the unique tricks of the comic book storytelling medium.

Again, the aligning of Marvel of their comic books to the movies is really overblown. What are the major events that drive the storyline of Marvel comics today and in recent history?

-Scarlet Witch depowered mutants, subsequently repowered by Phoenix force
- Avengers vs. X-Men
- superhero registration act
- death of Captain America
- Skrull invasion
- Otto Octavius as Spider-man
- Avengers world, greatly expanding the roster
- the Illuminati trying to stop universes from colliding
- Cyclops' X-Men waging a "mutant revolution"
- the 1963 original X-Men travelling in time to the present
- reemergence of Red Skull (with Xavier's brain) and Apocalypse as serious threats

Are any of these in the movies? NO. NONE ARE IN THE MOVIES. and we will generalize Marvel Comics as letting their comic books follow the movies just because of few token moves as introducing Agent Coulson and a black Nick Fury Jr.? Please.

Wait why couldn't you use Dysart's work on Harby in a comic class? It's gotten very good reviews to back up the quality. Actually, Harbinger, far more than a book like Hawkeye, is a masterful example of characterization. We've seen how many multi dimensional characters introduced in just 13 issues? I'm not going to bother counting, but its a lot. So really, it's actually a great example for young writers to balance many characters in a story whilst still developing them all into compelling multidimensional persons.

Also, I'm not attacking Marvel. I enjoy their movies. The point is their comics are lacking. They have some good ones, but the characters they put all their effort in anymore are their big movie money makers like, say, Iron Man. He's shown up in so many books, like Wolverine, and it's purely to sell more comics. They've given up on quality in most instances. The thing is though that you dont have to sacrifice good storytelling to sell comics. We've seen that with Valiant.

[erwinrafael]

Wait why couldn't you use Dysart's work on Harby in a comic class? It's gotten very good reviews to back up the quality. Actually, Harbinger, far more than a book like Hawkeye, is a masterful example of characterization. We've seen how many multi dimensional characters introduced in just 13 issues? I'm not going to bother counting, but its a lot. So really, it's actually a great example for young writers to balance many characters in a story whilst still developing them all into compelling multidimensional persons.

Some of Dysart's work in Harbinger is very good from a sequential storytelling perspective. Specially Harbinger #0 and Harbinger #10. In those issues, Dysart and his partner artists really used visual storytelling techniques that can be especially exploited in the comic book medium (such as panel transitions, parallel panels, the ironic voice-over, etc). And Dysart is indeed really good at characterization. His balancing of several characters in Harbinger Wars was amazing. The Renegades arc is one of the better story arcs in the past year in the superhero comic book industry. Many writers could indeed learn from Dysart's balancing of different characters with unique voices.

However, my personal critical preference in praising a great comic book is when it consistently tries to tell stories in a way that is unique to comic books alone. I love great characterization, but I can get that from different media like TV, movies, etc. Comic books here in the Philippines is a fortune. One issue costs me a tenth of my daily salary so I really value a unique experience for that amount of money. And that is what I get from Daredevil and Hawkeye. Look at this example of a very "comic book" style of storytelling from Mark Waid and Chris Samnee.



That is the kind of storytelling that could get you an Eisner award. And Samnee and Aja deservedly won the 2013 Eisners. I hope VEI would get to that level of quality too. The closest there is is Dysart's Harbinger which only suffers from not having a regular artist. Archer and Armstrong is really good too.

[Rufusharley]

This needs separate thought bubbles for V-ditty, Kindt, Warren and Dino...their faces while Josh is talking are all priceless.

lol ...

V-ditty "I wonder if he knows I can kill him with my brain?"
Kindt "Keep talking smarty pants .. Mind MGMT just got picked up by a major movie studio. Cha-ching!"
Warren "ugghh... when will it sttoooooopp!! Time to go to my happy place. Beer, babes and BSG all night long..ahhh"
Dinesh "What did I get myself into.... "

Love it!!


More! More!!:)

[hawkeyeps]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

[lorddunlow]

well, there are bright spots in Marvel / DC. Like Hawkeye and Datredevil for example. Valiant has not produced so far a book that approaches that level of quality.

Youre kidding right? Hawkeye is Marvel's best book, arguably for sure, but I'd contend Harby and X-O "approach that level of quality".

Anyway, I never said they didn't have some good books. My point is they are driven by the film industry, thus I wouldn't even consider them a proper comic company anymore.

Nope, Harbinger and X-O Manowar are good but not "comic book class" material like Hawkeye and Daredevil. Harbinger is close but not yet there.

Also, they are not driven by the film industry. They are a total entertainment company and the books feed off the movies and the movies feed off the books. I doubt if the American comic book industry would have survived the mess of the 1990s if the big companies remained insular from changes stimulated by changes outside the comic book industry. If Marvel did not make smart moves in relation to their movie franchises and let the 1990s bankruptcy sink them, I doubt that we would have an industry that could support a resurrection of a bankrupt company like Valiant. That's why I do not get all these hate for Marvel and DC being sellouts or something. It's a very myopic point of view.

Well I guess we disagree as to what constitutes as "comic book class", whatever that means. I will say Harby and X-O are better books than the two you've chosen.

And yes, the sheer size of their company and what drives their creative engines in the comic book industry is just whatever leads into their next movie. Hence why I don't consider them a proper comic company. Some of us like better comics.

When I said "comic book class" material, I meant material that can be used in a comic book writing or illustration course to show how to tell a story using the unique tricks of the comic book storytelling medium.

Again, the aligning of Marvel of their comic books to the movies is really overblown. What are the major events that drive the storyline of Marvel comics today and in recent history?

-Scarlet Witch depowered mutants, subsequently repowered by Phoenix force
- Avengers vs. X-Men
- superhero registration act
- death of Captain America
- Skrull invasion
- Otto Octavius as Spider-man
- Avengers world, greatly expanding the roster
- the Illuminati trying to stop universes from colliding
- Cyclops' X-Men waging a "mutant revolution"
- the 1963 original X-Men travelling in time to the present
- reemergence of Red Skull (with Xavier's brain) and Apocalypse as serious threats

Are any of these in the movies? NO. NONE ARE IN THE MOVIES. and we will generalize Marvel Comics as letting their comic books follow the movies just because of few token moves as introducing Agent Coulson and a black Nick Fury Jr.? Please.

Wait why couldn't you use Dysart's work on Harby in a comic class? It's gotten very good reviews to back up the quality. Actually, Harbinger, far more than a book like Hawkeye, is a masterful example of characterization. We've seen how many multi dimensional characters introduced in just 13 issues? I'm not going to bother counting, but its a lot. So really, it's actually a great example for young writers to balance many characters in a story whilst still developing them all into compelling multidimensional persons.

Also, I'm not attacking Marvel. I enjoy their movies. The point is their comics are lacking. They have some good ones, but the characters they put all their effort in anymore are their big movie money makers like, say, Iron Man. He's shown up in so many books, like Wolverine, and it's purely to sell more comics. They've given up on quality in most instances. The thing is though that you dont have to sacrifice good storytelling to sell comics. We've seen that with Valiant.

I don't erwinrafael is saying the writing isn't good in Harbinger (if he is, he's wrong), but it could work just as well as prose. Nothing about the Harbinger books is unique to the comic book medium. He's posted many panels from Hawkeye that really show things that can't be done in prose, film, etc.

An example I'll give is from the Before Watchmen Dr. Manhattan (it might have been the Ozymandias) book: the last issue starts out from the perspective of Dr. Manhattan until the midpoint. There is a split full page double panel with Dr. Manhattan upright and Ozymandias upside down. You have to flip the book upside down and you read the book upside down for the remainder which follows Ozymandias. The art "gimmick" parallels the story. You really can't do that in any other medium. I'll try to post pictures later.

An example of something that can only be done on film: any horror or thriller where the screen goes black and you hear noises all around. Can't be done in any other medium.

I think that's what he meant.

Of the VEI titles, I think Archer and Armstrong is the only one that has a LOT of comic-only techniques used ("dinopunch").

[BugsySig]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

Marvel & DC have just as many quality books as VALIANT...the problem is they have 45 mediocre books too. Their best books are very good and receive praise for the right reasons, but to point to that 10% of the books they publish and generalize the quality to their entire line is just as ridiculous as saying their whole line is controlled by the films they make.

[CallMeBloodshot]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

Haha who couldn't agree with these sentiments here? My thoughts exactly. Valiant is better than Marvel AND DC.

[erwinrafael]

I don't erwinrafael is saying the writing isn't good in Harbinger (if he is, he's wrong), but it could work just as well as prose. Nothing about the Harbinger books is unique to the comic book medium. He's posted many panels from Hawkeye that really show things that can't be done in prose, film, etc.

An example I'll give is from the Before Watchmen Dr. Manhattan (it might have been the Ozymandias) book: the last issue starts out from the perspective of Dr. Manhattan until the midpoint. There is a split full page double panel with Dr. Manhattan upright and Ozymandias upside down. You have to flip the book upside down and you read the book upside down for the remainder which follows Ozymandias. The art "gimmick" parallels the story. You really can't do that in any other medium. I'll try to post pictures later.

An example of something that can only be done on film: any horror or thriller where the screen goes black and you hear noises all around. Can't be done in any other medium.

I think that's what he meant.

Of the VEI titles, I think Archer and Armstrong is the only one that has a LOT of comic-only techniques used ("dinopunch").

Hey lordunlow. Archer and Armstrong is indeed great, especially when Clayton Henry and Pere Perez are doing the art. Look at this example of a page from Archer and Armstrong #2.



You can see the shrinking panels is telling the story of the rubble crashing down on Archer, Armstrong and Sister Tommy. No need for words, just amazing visual storytelling technique that is unique to comic books.

[greg]

We all know Dysart loves to talk

-Brian

Matt Kindt agrees with you...

Told you it would make a great caption contest!

This needs separate thought bubbles for V-ditty, Kindt, Warren and Dino...their faces while Josh is talking are all priceless.

http://www.valiantfan.com/images/sdcc2013sandwich.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[hawkeyeps]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

Marvel & DC have just as many quality books as VALIANT...the problem is they have 45 mediocre books too. Their best books are very good and receive praise for the right reasons, but to point to that 10% of the books they publish and generalize the quality to their entire line is just as ridiculous as saying their whole line is controlled by the films they make.

I hear you Bugs, has Marvel ever released a good book then axed it just because it didn't pull Avenger/X-Man/Spider-man numbers (Captain Britian and MI6) or released a cool concept that was dead in the cradle when issue #1 comes out (Fraction's Defenders, cancelled at issue one yet 12 issues of who gives a sh!t were pumped out none the less)?

How about the article at CBR which surmised Bendis's thoughts on the wrap up of Age of Ultron and basically consisted of "Sorry but I really I don't give a crap I have your money"?

I was a huge Marvel fan for multiple decades and have a huge collection of comics, shirts, figures and statues. Those b@stards screwed me and I hold a grudge.

I'm not raggin' on you Bugs but as you know this is a sore spot with me. Remember when we board slapped Steve Whacker and he bowed before Valiant? I kicked him when he was down, it's an argument they can't win.

Valiant is the best and Marvel and DC know it, that is why they are always biting on what Valiant's doing (8 bit, Venditti, Zircher, Jordan etc.).

I see Marvel and DC following Valiant not the other way around. Valiant is not going any where and sooner or later disillusioned Marvel fans (like me) will discover Valiant. We have a few new members right now who are just discovering Valiant and they see as we do this is where it's at.

Good comics are good comics and Hawkeye and Daredevil are good comics but as a whole the Marvel universe is way broken, it's hard to suspend your disbelief and this for me decreases enjoyment.

Valiant has a good tight universe and knows how to do things right a perfect example of this is Harbinger Wars, that is how an event book should be done. If something is not going to matter why bother doing it? Yeah Daredevil is a great book under Waid but what was that Shadowland mess about? What if Waid is off the book and they give it to Jeph Loeb for some reason...bam right in the crapper.

It's Valiant editorial and in large part Warren Simons and Dinesh Shamdasani that make the real difference in what this company is.

Justin Jordan just bailed on Superboy as many creators have from DC "due to creative differences" and Marvel is just a cog in the Disney money machine.

Thank God for Valiant they are last bastion of what I truly love and deliver the goods consistently on time month after month. That's something even Marvel and DC can't say...when is the next issue of Hawkeye due out, I don't recall that book ever being way late.

Marvel has moved to a new space and created a void in doing so, Valiant fills that.

[erwinrafael]

Thank God for Valiant they are last bastion of what I truly love and deliver the goods consistently on time month after month. That's something even Marvel and DC can't say...when is the next issue of Hawkeye due out, I don't recall that book ever being way late.

There's a Hawkeye annual next week. I think it has been established that David Aja needs 1.5 - 2 months per issue.

A lot of the "quality" of VEI comic books is because they have a manageable number of titles right now. Once they reach around ten titles a month, most likely they would have a dip in quality in some titles. That almost happened with Shadowman and we all know that the problems that book had at the start was because of creative differences between the two writers and the editor if we will take Zircher's version that there were too many cooks on the book.

[Elveen]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

during SDCC, someone with an insider perspective equated Valiant to Fugazi.

[bygranddesign]

http://www.valiantfan.com/images/sdcc2013sandwich.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LMFAO!!

[cjv]

We all know Dysart loves to talk

-Brian

Matt Kindt agrees with you...

Told you it would make a great caption contest!

This needs separate thought bubbles for V-ditty, Kindt, Warren and Dino...their faces while Josh is talking are all priceless.

http://www.valiantfan.com/images/sdcc2013sandwich.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Awesome.

[CallMeBloodshot]

Thank God for Valiant they are last bastion of what I truly love and deliver the goods consistently on time month after month. That's something even Marvel and DC can't say...when is the next issue of Hawkeye due out, I don't recall that book ever being way late.

There's a Hawkeye annual next week. I think it has been established that David Aja needs 1.5 - 2 months per issue.

A lot of the "quality" of VEI comic books is because they have a manageable number of titles right now. Once they reach around ten titles a month, most likely they would have a dip in quality in some titles. That almost happened with Shadowman and we all know that the problems that book had at the start was because of creative differences between the two writers and the editor if we will take Zircher's version that there were too many cooks on the book.

You're so used to Marvel and DC trash that you assume more titles means that much more poor titles. In general, yeah You can't have 100 books and they all be good. But it's more about a quality ratio. The way I see it Valiant is 6 for 6. And 1 for 1 with crossovers. Marvel, idk how many books thy have anymore, but maybe has like 15 or 20 tht are good(I'm being generous). That's probably way less than half their catalogue. This type of "dip" doesn't have to happen. An the people who keep claiming it dont fet that you dont have to sacrifice quality with more quantity.

So yeah, with Valiant expanding its obviously inevitable that problems will arise. Books will be subpar. Sometimes things don't strike a cord with readers, but you can right the ship. Valiant answered that first challenge with Shadowman. And thats a perfect example. There was many complaints, me especially, about that first arc, and already by the second arc they've got Justin writing what he wants and Roberto De La Torre crushing it as the perfect artist for the title. When something goes wrong at DC or Marvel its usually abandon ship. The big 2 have more books to worry about, so it goes without saying they stand to have more books that aren't good. The point is the amount of quality coming out of all that quanity isn't impressive anymore. There's more "meh" than "yeah!" with Marvel and DC, and that's just sad.

[erwinrafael]

Thank God for Valiant they are last bastion of what I truly love and deliver the goods consistently on time month after month. That's something even Marvel and DC can't say...when is the next issue of Hawkeye due out, I don't recall that book ever being way late.

There's a Hawkeye annual next week. I think it has been established that David Aja needs 1.5 - 2 months per issue.

A lot of the "quality" of VEI comic books is because they have a manageable number of titles right now. Once they reach around ten titles a month, most likely they would have a dip in quality in some titles. That almost happened with Shadowman and we all know that the problems that book had at the start was because of creative differences between the two writers and the editor if we will take Zircher's version that there were too many cooks on the book.

You're so used to Marvel and DC trash that you assume more titles means that much more poor titles. In general, yeah You can't have 100 books and they all be good. But it's more about a quality ratio. The way I see it Valiant is 6 for 6. And 1 for 1 with crossovers. Marvel, idk how many books thy have anymore, but maybe has like 15 or 20 tht are good(I'm being generous). That's probably way less than half their catalogue. This type of "dip" doesn't have to happen. An the people who keep claiming it dont fet that you dont have to sacrifice quality with more quantity.

So yeah, with Valiant expanding its obviously inevitable that problems will arise. Books will be subpar. Sometimes things don't strike a cord with readers, but you can right the ship. Valiant answered that first challenge with Shadowman. And thats a perfect example. There was many complaints, me especially, about that first arc, and already by the second arc they've got Justin writing what he wants and Roberto De La Torre crushing it as the perfect artist for the title. When something goes wrong at DC or Marvel its usually abandon ship. The big 2 have more books to worry about, so it goes without saying they stand to have more books that aren't good. The point is the amount of quality coming out of all that quanity isn't impressive anymore. There's more "meh" than "yeah!" with Marvel and DC, and that's just sad.

I am not used to Marvel and DC trash. The amount of trash, I believe, is really overstated. I can not see how more than half of Marvel's output right now is considered trash. There are lots of good books there if you would be open minded about it. And I am willing to bet that there are more good books than bad in Marvel today.

My constant replying in this thread comes from my frustration on why some Valiant supporters seem to feel the need to bash Marvel or DC to prop VEI up. I collect the whole VEI line and I enjoy some Marvel and DC too. And while I do not want to force people to like the output of the Big 2, I do not see the point of having to degrade Marvel and DC everytime when the context of VEI is not comparable, especially because it is a small company with a still uncluttered continuity and a manageable number of titles. Once VEI reaches around ten to fifteen titles and has two years of continuity under its belt, then let us compare.

[CallMeBloodshot]

Thank God for Valiant they are last bastion of what I truly love and deliver the goods consistently on time month after month. That's something even Marvel and DC can't say...when is the next issue of Hawkeye due out, I don't recall that book ever being way late.

There's a Hawkeye annual next week. I think it has been established that David Aja needs 1.5 - 2 months per issue.

A lot of the "quality" of VEI comic books is because they have a manageable number of titles right now. Once they reach around ten titles a month, most likely they would have a dip in quality in some titles. That almost happened with Shadowman and we all know that the problems that book had at the start was because of creative differences between the two writers and the editor if we will take Zircher's version that there were too many cooks on the book.

You're so used to Marvel and DC trash that you assume more titles means that much more poor titles. In general, yeah You can't have 100 books and they all be good. But it's more about a quality ratio. The way I see it Valiant is 6 for 6. And 1 for 1 with crossovers. Marvel, idk how many books thy have anymore, but maybe has like 15 or 20 tht are good(I'm being generous). That's probably way less than half their catalogue. This type of "dip" doesn't have to happen. An the people who keep claiming it dont fet that you dont have to sacrifice quality with more quantity.

So yeah, with Valiant expanding its obviously inevitable that problems will arise. Books will be subpar. Sometimes things don't strike a cord with readers, but you can right the ship. Valiant answered that first challenge with Shadowman. And thats a perfect example. There was many complaints, me especially, about that first arc, and already by the second arc they've got Justin writing what he wants and Roberto De La Torre crushing it as the perfect artist for the title. When something goes wrong at DC or Marvel its usually abandon ship. The big 2 have more books to worry about, so it goes without saying they stand to have more books that aren't good. The point is the amount of quality coming out of all that quanity isn't impressive anymore. There's more "meh" than "yeah!" with Marvel and DC, and that's just sad.

I am not used to Marvel and DC trash. The amount of trash, I believe, is really overstated. I can not see how more than half of Marvel's output right now is considered trash. There are lots of good books there if you would be open minded about it. And I am willing to bet that there are more good books than bad in Marvel today.

My constant replying in this thread comes from my frustration on why some Valiant supporters seem to feel the need to bash Marvel or DC to prop VEI up. I collect the whole VEI line and I enjoy some Marvel and DC too. And while I do not want to force people to like the output of the Big 2, I do not see the point of having to degrade Marvel and DC everytime when the context of VEI is not comparable, especially because it is a small company with a still uncluttered continuity and a manageable number of titles. Once VEI reaches around ten to fifteen titles and has two years of continuity under its belt, then let us compare.

Oh so the problem is that I'm not openminded enough? Maybe I've realized I don't like their comics after being to open-walleted with them. Yeah I made a word up btw do you work for Disney or something?

[Chiclo]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

during SDCC, someone with an insider perspective equated Valiant to Fugazi.

I had to google it. Still don't get the reference.

[The Dirt Gang]

Has anyone posted audio or video of the panel yet?

[grendeljd]

Yeah and don't get me wrong, I rather enjoy living in a time where comic book fans get tons of movies a year now. It's great. I'm just saying that maybe the big 2's comics are suffering as a result. Just an observation really. But that's why I've turned to Valiant for comic book storytelling, IMO they are superior at that right now. And I'm glad to here they know the movies are a different ball game, but still intend to uphold the integrity of their characters and mythologies, something the big 2 seem not to care about sometimes.

+1 - the quality of tight, integrated storytelling within their universe is the number one reason why I'm reading Valiant now instead of my childhood favourite Marvel universe [and I don't read any DC either - except Suicide Squad because I couldn't resist following Patch Zircher over to it].

I'm glad to see all the comic-based movies continuing to come out & be successful too, but they don't sway my opinion of the poor manner in which their respective comics are being treated.

[BugsySig]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

Marvel & DC have just as many quality books as VALIANT...the problem is they have 45 mediocre books too. Their best books are very good and receive praise for the right reasons, but to point to that 10% of the books they publish and generalize the quality to their entire line is just as ridiculous as saying their whole line is controlled by the films they make.

I hear you Bugs, has Marvel ever released a good book then axed it just because it didn't pull Avenger/X-Man/Spider-man numbers (Captain Britian and MI6) or released a cool concept that was dead in the cradle when issue #1 comes out (Fraction's Defenders, cancelled at issue one yet 12 issues of who gives a sh!t were pumped out none the less)?

How about the article at CBR which surmised Bendis's thoughts on the wrap up of Age of Ultron and basically consisted of "Sorry but I really I don't give a crap I have your money"?

I was a huge Marvel fan for multiple decades and have a huge collection of comics, shirts, figures and statues. Those b@stards screwed me and I hold a grudge.

I'm not raggin' on you Bugs but as you know this is a sore spot with me. Remember when we board slapped Steve Whacker and he bowed before Valiant? I kicked him when he was down, it's an argument they can't win.

Valiant is the best and Marvel and DC know it, that is why they are always biting on what Valiant's doing (8 bit, Venditti, Zircher, Jordan etc.).

I see Marvel and DC following Valiant not the other way around. Valiant is not going any where and sooner or later disillusioned Marvel fans (like me) will discover Valiant. We have a few new members right now who are just discovering Valiant and they see as we do this is where it's at.

Good comics are good comics and Hawkeye and Daredevil are good comics but as a whole the Marvel universe is way broken, it's hard to suspend your disbelief and this for me decreases enjoyment.

Valiant has a good tight universe and knows how to do things right a perfect example of this is Harbinger Wars, that is how an event book should be done. If something is not going to matter why bother doing it? Yeah Daredevil is a great book under Waid but what was that Shadowland mess about? What if Waid is off the book and they give it to Jeph Loeb for some reason...bam right in the crapper.

It's Valiant editorial and in large part Warren Simons and Dinesh Shamdasani that make the real difference in what this company is.

Justin Jordan just bailed on Superboy as many creators have from DC "due to creative differences" and Marvel is just a cog in the Disney money machine.

Thank God for Valiant they are last bastion of what I truly love and deliver the goods consistently on time month after month. That's something even Marvel and DC can't say...when is the next issue of Hawkeye due out, I don't recall that book ever being way late.

Marvel has moved to a new space and created a void in doing so, Valiant fills that.

I think you slightly misunderstood my comment. I am agreeing with you. I was just saying that claiming Marvel is totally controlled by the movies because of a few books (despite my own annoyance with it) is just as silly as saying Marvel is amazing because Hawkeye and Daredevil are Eisner winners. Lord knows EVERY book I was reading from Marvel over the past 5 years has been cancelled despite rave reviews...Profit is the ultimate motive (even for VEI) but its most apparent among the Big 2, and DCs New 52 especially.

[MarkRoseHFX]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

during SDCC, someone with an insider perspective equated Valiant to Fugazi.

I had to google it. Still don't get the reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugazi

cool band. Personally I hope Valiant is more like The White Stripes, popular indy band that becomes HUGE.

[CallMeBloodshot]

As far as comic book universes go-

Valiant>Marvel>DC

Valiant is to Marvel as Marvel was to DC, it is the evolution of shared universe comics.

All you have to do is look at a Marvel or DC forum at CBR and you will find pages and pages of b!tching and complaining, compare that to conversations concerning Valiant not just here but CBR or any where else...overwhelmingly positive.

Marvel and DC are top 40 crap, Valiant is the cool indy band

Marvel & DC have just as many quality books as VALIANT...the problem is they have 45 mediocre books too. Their best books are very good and receive praise for the right reasons, but to point to that 10% of the books they publish and generalize the quality to their entire line is just as ridiculous as saying their whole line is controlled by the films they make.

I hear you Bugs, has Marvel ever released a good book then axed it just because it didn't pull Avenger/X-Man/Spider-man numbers (Captain Britian and MI6) or released a cool concept that was dead in the cradle when issue #1 comes out (Fraction's Defenders, cancelled at issue one yet 12 issues of who gives a sh!t were pumped out none the less)?

How about the article at CBR which surmised Bendis's thoughts on the wrap up of Age of Ultron and basically consisted of "Sorry but I really I don't give a crap I have your money"?

I was a huge Marvel fan for multiple decades and have a huge collection of comics, shirts, figures and statues. Those b@stards screwed me and I hold a grudge.

I'm not raggin' on you Bugs but as you know this is a sore spot with me. Remember when we board slapped Steve Whacker and he bowed before Valiant? I kicked him when he was down, it's an argument they can't win.

Valiant is the best and Marvel and DC know it, that is why they are always biting on what Valiant's doing (8 bit, Venditti, Zircher, Jordan etc.).

I see Marvel and DC following Valiant not the other way around. Valiant is not going any where and sooner or later disillusioned Marvel fans (like me) will discover Valiant. We have a few new members right now who are just discovering Valiant and they see as we do this is where it's at.

Good comics are good comics and Hawkeye and Daredevil are good comics but as a whole the Marvel universe is way broken, it's hard to suspend your disbelief and this for me decreases enjoyment.

Valiant has a good tight universe and knows how to do things right a perfect example of this is Harbinger Wars, that is how an event book should be done. If something is not going to matter why bother doing it? Yeah Daredevil is a great book under Waid but what was that Shadowland mess about? What if Waid is off the book and they give it to Jeph Loeb for some reason...bam right in the crapper.

It's Valiant editorial and in large part Warren Simons and Dinesh Shamdasani that make the real difference in what this company is.

Justin Jordan just bailed on Superboy as many creators have from DC "due to creative differences" and Marvel is just a cog in the Disney money machine.

Thank God for Valiant they are last bastion of what I truly love and deliver the goods consistently on time month after month. That's something even Marvel and DC can't say...when is the next issue of Hawkeye due out, I don't recall that book ever being way late.

Marvel has moved to a new space and created a void in doing so, Valiant fills that.

I think you slightly misunderstood my comment. I am agreeing with you. I was just saying that claiming Marvel is totally controlled by the movies because of a few books (despite my own annoyance with it) is just as silly as saying Marvel is amazing because Hawkeye and Daredevil are Eisner winners. Lord knows EVERY book I was reading from Marvel over the past 5 years has been cancelled despite rave reviews...Profit is the ultimate motive (even for VEI) but its most apparent among the Big 2, and DCs New 52 especially.

Wait, who said they were totally controlled by the movies? I think the popular feeling is that the bleeding over from the films into the comics has caused unnecessary problems. It's really ruined decent books in some instances.

Anyway, I could care less about Marvel's or DC's comics. Lets get back on track:

Anyone have any thoughts or news on the Bloodshot film? I think it goes without saying an R rating is necessary.

[Blood of Heroes]

Anyone have any thoughts or news on the Bloodshot film? I think it goes without saying an R rating is necessary.

If it's anything like the first issue, I'd hope so.