Why are you under whelmed by Shadowman?

[bygranddesign]

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

I assume that the Brethren amassed their great power and wealth with the HELP of Master Darque .. but maybe this is something that Justin Jordan can be more clear about. If you are saying that (wealth, power, immortality) are not believable reasons why someone would ally themselves with Master Darque... than i'd strongly disagree with you there ... we live in a non-magical world and people sell their souls for a lot less. People dedicate themselves to religions and beliefs with no real evidence and proof of anything (purely on faith). There are people who worship the devil yet never spoke to the devil. They are just worshiping an idea. Imagine if the idea was real and spoke to them. Sports athletes risk extreme shame yet still risk taking steroids. Bankers/Hedge fund managers/Investors risk jail time and shame .. but still do underhanded things, fraud, ponzi schemes to try and amass wealth. So I do think that if there was a world in which Master Darque existed there would be many scary people lined up to worship him and benefit from his "Evilness".

[CallMeBloodshot]

That's the problem though when using groups with a cult mentality. They're almost always represented as having obvious goals (in this case prolonging their empowerment), yet their methods are always nonsensical. The reason is often for them to be a plot device like that show I mentioned. They exist solely to be this far reaching, unyielding group that the reader can never know the limits of. they exist to further the cause of the main villain and are rarely treated as more than one dimensional characters.

I just dont like how groups like the brethren are ever portrayed. They can have strange motivations, but we could at least understand them if theyre ever developed beyond how they appear on the surface. But they never are. At this point, considering we know nothing about them except their unbending loyalty to Darque, it seems more of that same trope.

if you were going to join a murderous cult

one that provides power, wealth and a chance of immortality is not a bad one to join

i'm not sure what else needs to be said in terms of motivation - there are probably a multitude of reasons why people join cults from religious zealotry, irrational fear, delusions of grandeur, sickening depravities, greed/wealth/power to more innocent reasons regarding faith or just being born into it or in the case of low level thugs money to just get by..

In terms of methods ... I'm not sure where the Brethren have been nonsensical. I'm sure they don't know what Master Darque has planned once he is on Earth ...they only know what they have been told and promised to them. You as the reader have more information than they do about what he is truly about. And we don't really know at this point what Master Darque has planned for the Brethren .. Maybe he will indeed give them great power when he comes to earth and turn everyone else who are not his followers into mindless monsters..

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

Dude, its on issue #7...in a book that's not about them...where they aren't even the main antagonist.

I think too many people are either a) spoiled by the generation of twitter and 24 hour news cycles and expect everything immediately, or b) spoiled by trade waiting and are used to reading 4-8 issues at one time.

Justin, et al, have 22 pages to tell a story about Shadowman and Master Darque (who I see as the co-main character). I think they have done a very good job at that story through 8 issues (including #0), especially during the second arc. I can wait to find out what the Brethren's deal is for a few more issues.

I don't think thts a fair assessment. I'm not even on twitter. Can't a person be critical of a comic anymore without being overgeneralized like that? Geez. Come on man, I even said I enjoy the comic. Doesnt mean i cant find flaws. It's a discussion board about Valiant comics. This tread in particular is about being critical of it. People on here should expect such evaluations. On the appreciation thread I'll appreciate it. On the "what do I find underwhelming about it" thread I'll do just that.

Wasn't directed at you...that's why I said too many people...I just see a lot of "why don't we know more about X background characters motivation" when a book isn't even through its second arc. Complaints about a main character's motivation or characterization I think are legit at such a point in a books life and I have expressed how I am underwhelmed with that as of this point.

You can find any flaws you want, I do it all the time (Hell, I'm the one who pointed out the discrepancy in the waitress' name), I just can't do so yet with a small piece of a book so early in its run. Are the Brethren generic villains right now? Sure. But there is time to developed them and have their motivation explored after the same is done for more important characters IMHO.

Well to be fair you replied to me an something specifically I said, so it seemed it was me you were using as some sort of generalization.

Also, I don't see a problem with critiquing these things 9 issues in. I even made a comment before all this how I feel like I've run out of instances to use the "this could still be developed later" excuse. It stemmed from the character development in general, mostly about the titular character. At any rate, I'm just not happy with the brethren concept. Considering the title feels lacking for me to begin with, specfically with Jack, I'd at least expect that time to be spent developing other characters, like the brethren. Considering the brethren are an integral part of the story, I don't find that too nitpicky. That's just how I feel about it.

But to end on a positive note, and as I've said many times already, I think Jordan has done a darn good job with the mythology. I also love the dichotomous relationship between Darque and the Shadowman loa that he's created. It really makes you feel like Darque and Shadowman have this old expansive rivalry that spans generations.

[lorddunlow]

You guys are missing the point. Why haven't we seen Pulse in the Deadside yet? I asked for her to be brought back over 5 hours ago. I just reread all the issues - she's still not there. I'm giving Justin Jordan until the morning, but if he doesn't deliver...

[MarkRoseHFX]

You guys are missing the point. Why haven't we seen Pulse in the Deadside yet? I asked for her to be brought back over 5 hours ago. I just reread all the issues - she's still not there. I'm giving Justin Jordan until the morning, but if he doesn't deliver...

you crack me up dunlow

[Carson]

You guys are missing the point. Why haven't we seen Pulse in the Deadside yet? I asked for her to be brought back over 5 hours ago. I just reread all the issues - she's still not there. I'm giving Justin Jordan until the morning, but if he doesn't deliver...

Thanks for lightening it up in here. I just LOLed big time on that one

[CallMeBloodshot]

You guys are missing the point. Why haven't we seen Pulse in the Deadside yet? I asked for her to be brought back over 5 hours ago. I just reread all the issues - she's still not there. I'm giving Justin Jordan until the morning, but if he doesn't deliver...

Haha dunlow you gotta get used to this: Pulse is dead!

[lorddunlow]

You guys are missing the point. Why haven't we seen Pulse in the Deadside yet? I asked for her to be brought back over 5 hours ago. I just reread all the issues - she's still not there. I'm giving Justin Jordan until the morning, but if he doesn't deliver...

Haha dunlow you gotta get used to this: Pulse is dead!

And I keep saying, I don't want that to change. Deadside - where "dead is dead" doesn't really matter.

[CallMeBloodshot]

You guys are missing the point. Why haven't we seen Pulse in the Deadside yet? I asked for her to be brought back over 5 hours ago. I just reread all the issues - she's still not there. I'm giving Justin Jordan until the morning, but if he doesn't deliver...

Haha dunlow you gotta get used to this: Pulse is dead!

And I keep saying, I don't want that to change. Deadside - where "dead is dead" doesn't really matter.

Well with the lack of talk about the brethren and development of Jack, Im sure the guys doing Shadowman have plenty of room to fit Pulse in there Alright alright I'm done. I swear.

[JustinJordan]

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

I think you're inferring a lot of stuff that hasn't been present in the book. Issue four lays out the basics of why people get involved with the Bretheren - power and immortality. Which Darque demonstrably HAS.

(Or at least, he's able to take blades to the chest and his lived for two hundred years.)

But beyond that, I don't know what you're seeing that doesn't make sense to you. I'm not going to try and argue you into liking something (which is a fruitless exercise and, you know, probably wouldnt make Valiant happy) but what you've seen the Bretheren do: summon Mr. Twist to try and bring back Darque, and then try and get him back from the Deadside.

So where is it that they are limitless and unrelentingly loyal? And when they're interacting with Darque, who can prove that he has magical power and has lived for two hundreds and has already given them power and wealth, why and how would they find out that he has another agenda they are unaware of? Why would they doubt Darque? And has there been anything to indicate that Darque is very chatty with the underlings?

Now, I think the idea that they haven't been all that developed is fair criticism, but at the same time, that also means that you're filling in blanks with stuff that hasn't appeared in the book.

[CallMeBloodshot]

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

I think you're inferring a lot of stuff that hasn't been present in the book. Issue four lays out the basics of why people get involved with the Bretheren - power and immortality. Which Darque demonstrably HAS.

(Or at least, he's able to take blades to the chest and his lived for two hundred years.)

But beyond that, I don't know what you're seeing that doesn't make sense to you. I'm not going to try and argue you into liking something (which is a fruitless exercise and, you know, probably wouldnt make Valiant happy) but what you've seen the Bretheren do: summon Mr. Twist to try and bring back Darque, and then try and get him back from the Deadside.

So where is it that they are limitless and unrelentingly loyal? And when they're interacting with Darque, who can prove that he has magical power and has lived for two hundreds and has already given them power and wealth, why and how would they find out that he has another agenda they are unaware of? Why would they doubt Darque? And has there been anything to indicate that Darque is very chatty with the underlings?

Now, I think the idea that they haven't been all that developed is fair criticism, but at the same time, that also means that you're filling in blanks with stuff that hasn't appeared in the book.

True but what do expect fans to do on this discussion forum? I'm just airing my opinions. Most of my the people I know don't even read comics so this is where I come to vent about them.

To be honest I wasn't expecting the writer of the comic to see this let alone reply lol. It's definitely really cool that you reach out to fans. I can tell you care about the integrity of your book, or at least your writing.

So I'm trying to get my foot in the door at Valiant. This doesn't hurt my chances at all right

[Knightt]

Most of my the people I know don't even read comics so this is where I come to vent about them.

CallMeBloodshot, you can always go to www.VivelaFranc... I mean www.vivelaCanada.net

There they don't have much to say but have lots of time to read. Not much going on in Canada but then again, they smell like maple syrup.

[JustinJordan]

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

I think you're inferring a lot of stuff that hasn't been present in the book. Issue four lays out the basics of why people get involved with the Bretheren - power and immortality. Which Darque demonstrably HAS.

(Or at least, he's able to take blades to the chest and his lived for two hundred years.)

But beyond that, I don't know what you're seeing that doesn't make sense to you. I'm not going to try and argue you into liking something (which is a fruitless exercise and, you know, probably wouldnt make Valiant happy) but what you've seen the Bretheren do: summon Mr. Twist to try and bring back Darque, and then try and get him back from the Deadside.

So where is it that they are limitless and unrelentingly loyal? And when they're interacting with Darque, who can prove that he has magical power and has lived for two hundreds and has already given them power and wealth, why and how would they find out that he has another agenda they are unaware of? Why would they doubt Darque? And has there been anything to indicate that Darque is very chatty with the underlings?

Now, I think the idea that they haven't been all that developed is fair criticism, but at the same time, that also means that you're filling in blanks with stuff that hasn't appeared in the book.

True but what do expect fans to do on this discussion forum? I'm just airing my opinions. Most of my the people I know don't even read comics so this is where I come to vent about them.

To be honest I wasn't expecting the writer of the comic to see this let alone reply lol. It's definitely really cool that you reach out to fans. I can tell you care about the integrity of your book, or at least your writing.

So I'm trying to get my foot in the door at Valiant. This doesn't hurt my chances at all right

Totally fair. It's the tricky bit about being around here. I was (and am) hesitant to post because I don't want people to feel as if this isn't their place. But I enjoy talking to people who are passionate about the book and they seem to like having me. But it's always a balance.

[lorddunlow]

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

I think you're inferring a lot of stuff that hasn't been present in the book. Issue four lays out the basics of why people get involved with the Bretheren - power and immortality. Which Darque demonstrably HAS.

(Or at least, he's able to take blades to the chest and his lived for two hundred years.)

But beyond that, I don't know what you're seeing that doesn't make sense to you. I'm not going to try and argue you into liking something (which is a fruitless exercise and, you know, probably wouldnt make Valiant happy) but what you've seen the Bretheren do: summon Mr. Twist to try and bring back Darque, and then try and get him back from the Deadside.

So where is it that they are limitless and unrelentingly loyal? And when they're interacting with Darque, who can prove that he has magical power and has lived for two hundreds and has already given them power and wealth, why and how would they find out that he has another agenda they are unaware of? Why would they doubt Darque? And has there been anything to indicate that Darque is very chatty with the underlings?

Now, I think the idea that they haven't been all that developed is fair criticism, but at the same time, that also means that you're filling in blanks with stuff that hasn't appeared in the book.

True but what do expect fans to do on this discussion forum? I'm just airing my opinions. Most of my the people I know don't even read comics so this is where I come to vent about them.

To be honest I wasn't expecting the writer of the comic to see this let alone reply lol. It's definitely really cool that you reach out to fans. I can tell you care about the integrity of your book, or at least your writing.

So I'm trying to get my foot in the door at Valiant. This doesn't hurt my chances at all right

Totally fair. It's the tricky bit about being around here. I was (and am) hesitant to post because I don't want people to feel as if this isn't their place. But I enjoy talking to people who are passionate about the book and they seem to like having me. But it's always a balance.

Justin, you were a little non-responsive about the Pulse thing.

Seriously though, I love the way you interact with us on here.

[bygranddesign]

Justin, you were a little non-responsive about the Pulse thing.

Justin is probably like "Pulse who?"

I do wonder though who ends up in the deadside ... obviously not every person that gets killed goes to the deadside some move on to wherever - heaven, hell, the cosmos, disneyland... The deadside in some ways is a TRAP for souls that leave the body (after being killed). I probably should go back and re-read some issues but i believe its people who die at the hands of the Brethren that end up in the deadside.

[BugsySig]

Justin, you were a little non-responsive about the Pulse thing.

Justin is probably like "Pulse who?"

I do wonder though who ends up in the deadside ... obviously not every person that gets killed goes to the deadside some move on to wherever - heaven, hell, the cosmos, disneyland... The deadside in some ways is a TRAP for souls that leave the body (after being killed). I probably should go back and re-read some issues but i believe its people who die at the hands of the Brethren that end up in the deadside.

It seems (and I think Justin clarified/explained this at one point) that the souls of those who's Necromantic energy was drained become distorted and trapped in the Deadside. Others simply fail to move on to the appropriate place from Deadside or wonder into it from somewhere else. More recently, with Darque's arrival in Deadside, it would seem everyone is trapped in Deadside and unable to move on.

[bygranddesign]

Justin, you were a little non-responsive about the Pulse thing.

Justin is probably like "Pulse who?"

I do wonder though who ends up in the deadside ... obviously not every person that gets killed goes to the deadside some move on to wherever - heaven, hell, the cosmos, disneyland... The deadside in some ways is a TRAP for souls that leave the body (after being killed). I probably should go back and re-read some issues but i believe its people who die at the hands of the Brethren that end up in the deadside.

It seems (and I think Justin clarified/explained this at one point) that the souls of those who's Necromantic energy was drained become distorted and trapped in the Deadside. Others simply fail to move on to the appropriate place from Deadside or wonder into it from somewhere else. More recently, with Darque's arrival in Deadside, it would seem everyone is trapped in Deadside and unable to move on.

Cool. That sounds about right. Thanks.

[CallMeBloodshot]

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

I think you're inferring a lot of stuff that hasn't been present in the book. Issue four lays out the basics of why people get involved with the Bretheren - power and immortality. Which Darque demonstrably HAS.

(Or at least, he's able to take blades to the chest and his lived for two hundred years.)

But beyond that, I don't know what you're seeing that doesn't make sense to you. I'm not going to try and argue you into liking something (which is a fruitless exercise and, you know, probably wouldnt make Valiant happy) but what you've seen the Bretheren do: summon Mr. Twist to try and bring back Darque, and then try and get him back from the Deadside.

So where is it that they are limitless and unrelentingly loyal? And when they're interacting with Darque, who can prove that he has magical power and has lived for two hundreds and has already given them power and wealth, why and how would they find out that he has another agenda they are unaware of? Why would they doubt Darque? And has there been anything to indicate that Darque is very chatty with the underlings?

Now, I think the idea that they haven't been all that developed is fair criticism, but at the same time, that also means that you're filling in blanks with stuff that hasn't appeared in the book.

True but what do expect fans to do on this discussion forum? I'm just airing my opinions. Most of my the people I know don't even read comics so this is where I come to vent about them.

To be honest I wasn't expecting the writer of the comic to see this let alone reply lol. It's definitely really cool that you reach out to fans. I can tell you care about the integrity of your book, or at least your writing.

So I'm trying to get my foot in the door at Valiant. This doesn't hurt my chances at all right

Totally fair. It's the tricky bit about being around here. I was (and am) hesitant to post because I don't want people to feel as if this isn't their place. But I enjoy talking to people who are passionate about the book and they seem to like having me. But it's always a balance.

Well I'm definitely passionate about your book, that's for sure. Shadowman is the first book I read over anything else when its released. If I sound overly critical its probably just because of that passion, and also a lot of it is venting.

Since our discussion began I've since gone back and reread the Birth Rites arc. I actually do like the brethren a wee bit more having paid more attention to them this time around. Mostly because I like these dichotomous relationships you've created. The first with Shadowman and Darque, and the second (more supplementary one) between the abettors and the brethren. Also Jack is fleshed out more in there than I remembered. Mostly because of his encounter with Josiah in ish 3. I really loved that issue as well, seeing Josiah pass on the mantle (rather hesitantly) to his son and telling him he never wanted that life for him. It's not a scene that reinvents the proverbial wheel of storytelling or anything, but its the execution, the fantastic interplay of art and story. Theres tons of ethos in that moment. And I personally love the "take these gris gris" part.

Anyway, thanks again for the replies! Keep up the good work.

Also, any chance we'll meet more previous Shadowman hosts, maybe by way of flashback? That Shadowman 0 cover was quite the tease