Shadowman: Main Theme??

[Shadowman99]

You know, frustratingly I've never been able to put my finger on exactly what the main 'theme' of Shadowman is. You know like X Men's is 'racism' and Bloodshot's is 'search for identity', etc...

Does anyone have any thoughts?

I'm including every version of Shadowman there's been so far, so Bob Hall's original, the Acclaim Mike LeRoi version, and today's current version as well.

Is there a widely agreed on theme for Shadowman here on the boards? Have the different series had different themes, or has there been one constant throughout?

I know racial discrimination has cropped up a couple of times, back in VH1 and VH2. Is that the theme and I've just been dense and missed it? I know VH1 Shadowman was pretty possessive of 'the night', maybe that's something... And all Shadowmen have struggled with acceptance of the Loa in their own ways, so maybe it's something to do with that...

Help!

[greg]

Probably something generic like:
"Nature vs. Nurture" or "Decision vs. Destiny"
... both are themes for Jack and for Darque.

[Zaphod]

Well I always translated the original Shadowman as kind of a 'faith vs destiny' type of deal. Jack was always struggling with what made him Shadowman.

[CallMeBloodshot]

You know, frustratingly I've never been able to put my finger on exactly what the main 'theme' of Shadowman is. You know like X Men's is 'racism' and Bloodshot's is 'search for identity', etc...

Does anyone have any thoughts?

I'm including every version of Shadowman there's been so far, so Bob Hall's original, the Acclaim Mike LeRoi version, and today's current version as well.

Is there a widely agreed on theme for Shadowman here on the boards? Have the different series had different themes, or has there been one constant throughout?

I know racial discrimination has cropped up a couple of times, back in VH1 and VH2. Is that the theme and I've just been dense and missed it? I know VH1 Shadowman was pretty possessive of 'the night', maybe that's something... And all Shadowmen have struggled with acceptance of the Loa in their own ways, so maybe it's something to do with that...

Help!

Well I've admittedly only read 1 ish of VH1 Shadowman so far, but I'd say social decay would be the theme for the 1st series. From what I can already tell, the old series felt very environmental, drawing from real life New Orleans to create this living breathing environment in the comic. New Orleans itself is something I consider to be its own character in the Shadowman realm. We're so deeply immersed in it and it plays such a large role in the story that'd be hard to disagree. The amount of crime going on at the time and Jack's exploration of this dangerously criminal city at night just explores this theme of social decay.

Now for the new series, I'd say there is no discernable overarching theme and that's why it's maybe not as great as some other Valiant titles. Don't get me wrong, I love Shadowman. I like the mythology they're building in that book but its still missing key characterization for Jack. We don't really know what drives him as a character. We need to get inside his head more. And aside from that, and back on topic, it has no theme. There's really nothing that makes it relevant to our current society (at least not from my perspective). Now of course not every comic has to do that, but we are talking about Valiant here. The problem is that I think VEI Shadowman is just trying to be a superhero horror-mystery. Does it succeed at that? Definitely, it's a a very very enjoyable book. It just doesn't aim much higher than being a genre book IMO, which though better than most books out from companies like the big 2, still isn't up to the high standard of other Valiant books.

I love Shadowman. I just think when it comes to VEI its actually that I just really want to like him more than I do. The idea of the character is great and that's what I latch to more than the actual execution. But Justin Jordan has surprisingly been lacking in character development and creating a theme.

[shadow5555]

Probably something generic like:
"Nature vs. Nurture" or "Decision vs. Destiny"
... both are themes for Jack and for Darque.

I like that, good choice.

Also Identity is what I always got out of it, and this was pretty much hammered home when I re-read the early issues in the HC these past few days.

Well I've admittedly only read 1 ish of VH1 Shadowman so far, but I'd say social decay would be the theme for the 1st series. From what I can already tell, the old series felt very environmental, drawing from real life New Orleans to create this living breathing environment in the comic. New Orleans itself is something I consider to be its own character in the Shadowman realm. We're so deeply immersed in it and it plays such a large role in the story that'd be hard to disagree. The amount of crime going on at the time and Jack's exploration of this dangerously criminal city at night just explores this theme of social decay.

Now for the new series, I'd say there is no discernable overarching theme and that's why it's maybe not as great as some other Valiant titles. Don't get me wrong, I love Shadowman. I like the mythology they're building in that book but its still missing key characterization for Jack. We don't really know what drives him as a character. We need to get inside his head more. And aside from that, and back on topic, it has no theme. There's really nothing that makes it relevant to our current society (at least not from my perspective). Now of course not every comic has to do that, but we are talking about Valiant here. The problem is that I think VEI Shadowman is just trying to be a superhero horror-mystery. Does it succeed at that? Definitely, it's a a very very enjoyable book. It just doesn't aim much higher than being a genre book IMO, which though better than most books out from companies like the big 2, still isn't up to the high standard of other Valiant books.

I love Shadowman. I just think when it comes to VEI its actually that I just really want to like him more than I do. The idea of the character is great and that's what I latch to more than the actual execution. But Justin Jordan has surprisingly been lacking in character development and creating a theme.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this has been missing from the new book, I want to like his character, but within the first 6-7 issues I've read, I still have yet to get a feel for the character, who he is, etc. within that same time frame for VH1, I got a better handle for the character, it also helped that when Bob Hall took the reins, Jack got a voice, Bob was Jack and Jack was Bob, plus Bob went to New Orleans for research and it showed as New Orleans did become the background character for the series.

Hopefully the mythology can be put onto the back burner for awhile (Master Darque could have been revealed in later issues, just like the original and revealed more slowly than before) and we get to see characterization come to the forefront, I re-read Shadowman #0 (the Bob Hall version) and that book is still so awesome after all of these years, it tells a massive story in one small book, gives insight all over the place and was a very good re-telling of how Jack came to be Shadowman as well.

[CallMeBloodshot]

Probably something generic like:
"Nature vs. Nurture" or "Decision vs. Destiny"
... both are themes for Jack and for Darque.

I like that, good choice.

Also Identity is what I always got out of it, and this was pretty much hammered home when I re-read the early issues in the HC these past few days.

Well I've admittedly only read 1 ish of VH1 Shadowman so far, but I'd say social decay would be the theme for the 1st series. From what I can already tell, the old series felt very environmental, drawing from real life New Orleans to create this living breathing environment in the comic. New Orleans itself is something I consider to be its own character in the Shadowman realm. We're so deeply immersed in it and it plays such a large role in the story that'd be hard to disagree. The amount of crime going on at the time and Jack's exploration of this dangerously criminal city at night just explores this theme of social decay.

Now for the new series, I'd say there is no discernable overarching theme and that's why it's maybe not as great as some other Valiant titles. Don't get me wrong, I love Shadowman. I like the mythology they're building in that book but its still missing key characterization for Jack. We don't really know what drives him as a character. We need to get inside his head more. And aside from that, and back on topic, it has no theme. There's really nothing that makes it relevant to our current society (at least not from my perspective). Now of course not every comic has to do that, but we are talking about Valiant here. The problem is that I think VEI Shadowman is just trying to be a superhero horror-mystery. Does it succeed at that? Definitely, it's a a very very enjoyable book. It just doesn't aim much higher than being a genre book IMO, which though better than most books out from companies like the big 2, still isn't up to the high standard of other Valiant books.

I love Shadowman. I just think when it comes to VEI its actually that I just really want to like him more than I do. The idea of the character is great and that's what I latch to more than the actual execution. But Justin Jordan has surprisingly been lacking in character development and creating a theme.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this has been missing from the new book, I want to like his character, but within the first 6-7 issues I've read, I still have yet to get a feel for the character, who he is, etc. within that same time frame for VH1, I got a better handle for the character, it also helped that when Bob Hall took the reins, Jack got a voice, Bob was Jack and Jack was Bob, plus Bob went to New Orleans for research and it showed as New Orleans did become the background character for the series.

Hopefully the mythology can be put onto the back burner for awhile (Master Darque could have been revealed in later issues, just like the original and revealed more slowly than before) and we get to see characterization come to the forefront, I re-read Shadowman #0 (the Bob Hall version) and that book is still so awesome after all of these years, it tells a massive story in one small book, gives insight all over the place and was a very good re-telling of how Jack came to be Shadowman as well.

Yup you and I are on the same page.

Also like you said, (and personally after reading more VH1 Shadowman) in 2 issues you fully understand the loa and who Jack was as a character. 8 or so issues in to VEI Shadowman and I'm no closer to understanding Jack than in issue 1.

You're also 100% right about Darque. They've concentrated too much on the villain and nt enough on the titular character. They even dedicated the entire zero issue to Darque. And yeah it was arguably the best issue of the new Shadowman thus far, but shouldn't we be as interested in the main character? I wish ish 0 explained the Shadowman loa instead. I love the whole legacy of the Shadowman chaaraxter as a mantle passed down. But they havent really gone into it much. I also adore the whole New Orleans as its own side character and you can tell Bob Hall did research as he knew the environment well and how to bring it to life and make it set the dark tone for the book.

The art and stuff has been great and the book really is good. It's just a shame because of this could fire on all cylinders it could possibly be Valiant's best. But I guess even sub par Shadowman is still a pretty darn good book. I hope they improve the things me mentioned

[kevinbastos]

I may have to disagree here. I think that Darque maybe the most important character of the comic. The persn behind the mask may not be as important as the mask itself. And who that mask is opposing. Perhaps the comic IS about Darque, and that is why th zero issue was so good.

Even in the VH1 version, the role of the Shadowman was purposefully moving from person to person both in the past and in the future.

[CallMeBloodshot]

I may have to disagree here. I think that Darque maybe the most important character of the comic. The persn behind the mask may not be as important as the mask itself. And who that mask is opposing. Perhaps the comic IS about Darque, and that is why th zero issue was so good.

Even in the VH1 version, the role of the Shadowman was purposefully moving from person to person both in the past and in the future.[b/]

Yeah but that's no excuse to not make these characters multidimensional. The VH1 version made Shadowman a muktidimensional character in a couple of issues. I think we easily excuse poor characterization for good visuals these days as Jack thus far is pretty one or two dimensional. We can still learn about Jack and anyone else who was/is Shadowman. That's what makes each of them unique in how channel the Shadowman loa. Just because one isn't Shadowman forever, and its a loa that they are hosting, doesn't mean we can't see a personality of these other characters shine through.

There was plenty of time to do all this with Darque AND develop Jack as a character. It's not rocket science. This is a big part of what writers are paid to do. A prime example of this missed opportunity was wasting time on this waitress character. We all know she was introduced solely to die to have a (lackluster) impact on us and Jack. The time could have been better spent removing that pointless relationship and further exploring who Jack is by showing him with Dox or Alyssa, talkin about the burden of being Shadowman and how it ties to his past experiences or how he feels about it - something like that, but you get the idea.

[Shadowman99]

I'm not sure what thread it was in (possibly the 'Discuss Shadowman #0 one) but Justin Jordan dropped a comment about the cover and the content of the issue.

He basically explained that the 'retro Shadowmen' featured on the #0 cover (see http://www.valiantfan.com/valiant/issue.asp?cn=1524" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) were those who've previously held the Shadowman mantle, and that they had nothing to do with the page content due to editorial changes post cover submission.

However, he went on to also say that although the content of the #0 comic was changed to focus primarily on Master Darque, Valiant are likely to use the content written regarding the 'retro Shadowmen' in the future, to delve deeper into the Shadowman legacy and the Loa applicable to today's Shadowman story.

[CallMeBloodshot]

I'm not sure what thread it was in (possibly the 'Discuss Shadowman #0 one) but Justin Jordan dropped a comment about the cover and the content of the issue.

He basically explained that the 'retro Shadowmen' featured on the #0 cover (see http://www.valiantfan.com/valiant/issue.asp?cn=1524" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) were those who've previously held the Shadowman mantle, and that they had nothing to do with the page content due to editorial changes post cover submission.

However, he went on to also say that although the content of the #0 comic was changed to focus primarily on Master Darque, Valiant are likely to use the content written regarding the 'retro Shadowmen' in the future, to delve deeper into the Shadowman legacy and the Loa applicable to today's Shadowman story.

Woah, thanks for the info!

I guess that explains a lot. It also makes me feel a bit better about it knowing Justin does intend to explore the Shadowman legacy sooner rather than later.

[String]

Well I've admittedly only read 1 ish of VH1 Shadowman so far, but I'd say social decay would be the theme for the 1st series. From what I can already tell, the old series felt very environmental, drawing from real life New Orleans to create this living breathing environment in the comic. New Orleans itself is something I consider to be its own character in the Shadowman realm. We're so deeply immersed in it and it plays such a large role in the story that'd be hard to disagree. The amount of crime going on at the time and Jack's exploration of this dangerously criminal city at night just explores this theme of social decay.

That's interesting to hear. The closest I've seen of that kind of occurrence was Opal City in James Robinson's Starman comic. When the city, the environs itself helps lend to the mood, atmosphere, the feeling of the comic as a whole, it does add an extra flavoring to the enjoyment of the story.

[Baramos]

For the first 4 issues I felt the theme was a search for identity, we see Jack struggling with the fact that he never knew his father, and then he finds out that his father and mother were wanted for murder, assault, etc. and has a bit of a crisis of faith. However once he finds out his father was Shadowman, he overcomes this to a certain extent.

I'd say this new arc lacks the same kind of theme or motivation for the character, though. I suppose it is simply that he feels he has failed Dox, so maybe the next arc will involve some level of redemption or what have you. It does lack a unifying theme, but many comics are similar...

[kjjohanson]

I have nothing to add to the actual discussion yet, but just wanted to mention that when I saw the subject of the thread, what went through my mind was, "Shadow-man, Shadow-man, does whatever a shadow can…"

[shadow5555]

I'm not sure what thread it was in (possibly the 'Discuss Shadowman #0 one) but Justin Jordan dropped a comment about the cover and the content of the issue.

He basically explained that the 'retro Shadowmen' featured on the #0 cover (see http://www.valiantfan.com/valiant/issue.asp?cn=1524" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) were those who've previously held the Shadowman mantle, and that they had nothing to do with the page content due to editorial changes post cover submission.

However, he went on to also say that although the content of the #0 comic was changed to focus primarily on Master Darque, Valiant are likely to use the content written regarding the 'retro Shadowmen' in the future, to delve deeper into the Shadowman legacy and the Loa applicable to today's Shadowman story.

As I mentioned in my Shadowman HC review on Amazon I would have liked to see Darque gradually introduced like he was originally, the only thing I can think of is he must be integral to the Unity cross-over in some way that they wanted to get him out there and introduced before they get things going. A shame as things didn't grow organically, but that's editors for ya.

And we all know there was only two Shadowmen in Jack's time (Maxim and Jack) so I don't see we need to have a Phantom-esque timeline passed on from father to son for 400 years, kind of thing going on with Shadowman, that kind of makes it cheesy, IMO. =\

[hunter_peterson]

This is kind of tricky, as the current series hasn't really paused for breath. It seems like the legacy theme would make family and being born into roles and responsibilities you may not necessarily agree with or want. That works for Jack and the possible family-of-choice that is the Abettors (though we have really gotten only one bit of that and the whole setup really hasn't been fleshed out a lot) as well as for Darque's screwed up manufacture for a specific purpose and intense interdependency with Sandria (which is better fleshed out somehow after only one issue of focus). I think it could really be interesting, especially if the foster care system and the whole concept of being orphaned were to be explored more deeply. It's a bit like the X-Men by way of the Phantom in New Orleans like that.

As for the old series, I think it was seduction. How places can be seductive, how power can be seductive, how music can be seductive, how the night closing in on you can be electric, dangerous and exhilarating. Shadowman was always Jack's indulgence, an addiction he wasn't sure was healthy or not. Jazz too. And Nettie gently shepherded him down the path and deeper into the night. And New Orleans was New Orleans. It all kind of clicks.

Now, if they could unify those two in the current book? It would be very awesome. And every issue is improving, so I have faith in Jordan to make this book shine... darkly. After all, what can be more seductive to an orphan than the promise of family?

[mattboh]

Ax xx. Xwcxx. X wax x2cddç. Cf. Çfx x. C. Q

[lorddunlow]

Ax xx. Xwcxx. X wax x2cddç. Cf. Çfx x. C. Q

Well, that is certainly cryptic. Is this Welsh? Ian?

[MarkRoseHFX]

Ax xx. Xwcxx. X wax x2cddç. Cf. Çfx x. C. Q

QFT

I agree with you 100%

[shadow5555]

Ax xx. Xwcxx. X wax x2cddç. Cf. Çfx x. C. Q

Well, that is certainly cryptic. Is this Welsh? Ian?

My Captain Marvel decoder ring ain't getting nothin', so it's not Martian.

[Shadowman99]

Haha, thanks for that contribution Mattboh, spot-on as usual! I guess that solves the mystery of Shadowman's theme then!




Moving on, now that you mention it, Hunter's idea about the current theme being 'Family' is quite strong I feel. You've already mentioned the family-type themes connected with Jack and his parents, his newfound 'family' in the Abettors and the obvious events of the #0 issue so I think that's been covered adequately, which leaves me to wonder if there are going to be any more events in the future that could fall into that Venn ring?

Is it possible to add the industrial cabal into that category as well? It seems to me that they're mostly relying on Darque to give them what they want in the same way that a child waits on its parents for dinner, without appearing to be carrying out any autonomous functions.

The only factors I can't fit easily into the family theme are Jaunty and Saturday. Having said that, I think that Jaunty and Saturday have really only been used as plot devices so far, as they barely have any depth to their characters, so perhaps it's not necessary to include them just yet.

As for seduction... I think that's certainly applicable to the VH1 series. Although, I can't help but feel that it ought to be 'seduction and addiction', because there came a point with Jack being Shadowman that he couldn't stop being Shadowman... He'd say in one panel "No, I'm not going out tonight, I'm going to stay in and get a good sleep" And you'd turn the page and he'd be lurking on a dark rooftop somewhere. I think in the VH2 series that theme was perhaps toned down a bit, as although Mike was no stranger to sexual seduction, he always ended up becoming more of a guardian figure for the women concerned and appeared to be acting more out of a sense of duty than of addiction.

I think Greg's musing on Decision/Destiny is a pretty good choice too, as both Jack Boniface (VH1) and Mike LeRoi both struggled against what they were supposed to do, and how they were supposed to do this or that to a point. I don't think LeRoi ever really got his chance to escape Nettie's grasp for good, as his one attempt sort of went wrong, and Jack Boniface rebelled to the point of throwing himself off of a building to see how firm destiny's grasp on his life was. I think this theme is yet to be explored yet (if at all) with current day Jack, as he's taken to being Shadowman extremely obediently without challenging the role, and perhaps only as recently as issue #7 has he shown any will to do things his way, instead of simply doing what he's told. Might have to keep that one on the back burner a while longer yet.

I think the 'identity' theme is almost part and parcel with the above theme as well, because with the struggle against what one wants to be and what one ought to be inevitably influences a person's sense of identity.


Anyway, just to finish, going back to Shadow555's thoughts, I think that the Shadowman Legacy is a family legacy in this new series. Back in issue #1 there's a panel where the Loa addresses Jack directly, and says something along the lines of "I've been waiting for you, son of Maxim, son of Jack, son of Michael, son of Josiah...", which I thought indicated a direct bloodline link.

As for Darque's quick and fast introduction to the book... Although I'm certain that Darque is going to be a long-term protagonist in Shadowman, I can't help but wonder if he's been rushed through the pipe in order to establish him in the universe before he becomes a pivotal antagonist in the Unity 2013 saga...

[kjjohanson]

Ax xx. Xwcxx. X wax x2cddç. Cf. Çfx x. C. Q

Butt posting?

[kjjohanson]

Ax xx.

I think this is a spoiler that, like VEI's Dr. Mirage, VEI's Ax will be gender-shifted to be female.