Why are you under whelmed by Shadowman?

[Shadowman99]

Shadowman # 0 was very good. Could be a game changer from a feel and atmosphere of the book.

Shadowman 1 - 4 were borderline boring. From 5 onwards, there is improvement, number 0 being the best of the bunch so far.

I do have to agree that since the pace picked up a little when Samedi was introduced the story has become more exciting

[drmirage]

This has got to be the first time (based on what everyone is saying) that they loved issue #0 than issues #1 through #4.

Its better to have a great current issue, rather than a declining storyline. IMO>

If #5 and #6 are better than #1 through #4 and #0 is the best issue yet... I will have to say that Shadowman is going at the right track.

[FormerReader]

This has got to be the first time (based on what everyone is saying) that they loved issue #0 than issues #1 through #4.

Its better to have a great current issue, rather than a declining storyline. IMO>

If #5 and #6 are better than #1 through #4 and #0 is the best issue yet... I will have to say that Shadowman is going at the right track.

Agreed! Issue #0 was the exact look and feel that I was hoping for. This gives me a lot of hope for the series.

[leonmallett]

This has got to be the first time (based on what everyone is saying) that they loved issue #0 than issues #1 through #4.

Its better to have a great current issue, rather than a declining storyline. IMO>

If #5 and #6 are better than #1 through #4 and #0 is the best issue yet... I will have to say that Shadowman is going at the right track.

Not "everyone".

I will argue that 1-4 are better than some, or many in this thread, are giving credit for, but while accepting mileage may vary.

[Shadowman99]

Agreed! Issue #0 was the exact look and feel that I was hoping for. This gives me a lot of hope for the series.

Not wanting to burst anyone's bubble, but I've read the Shadowman and Harbinger #0 stories, and the art style seemed specific to that issue: the art style for Harbinger went right back to the regular artists in the next issue, and I highly suspect that Shadowman will do the same, however much myself or anyone else might want to maintain the darker tone that was used in the #0 issue.

But, as long as the story stays interesting, perhaps it won't matter if the art style isn't quite what some of us would like it to be

[grendeljd]

I ahve been out of and behind my comics reading for the past 6 months or so, so over the past few nights read Shadowman #16 and #0.

And really, I cannot see where the criticism is coming from.

I love the Bob Hall and Tom Ryder era of Shadowman; anyone doubts that I I can point to a lengthy post on the matter. This sin't that. Nor should it be. Emulating THAT or trying to would have been a huge mistake. That said, there are clear parallels beyond the obvious trappings of character, motifs and setting. Melding themes from the VALIANT and Acclaim eras makes sense.

Jack as a lead is a cipher; he is learning who he is and where he comes from. He is kind of an every-man just trying to do the right thing in a situation where things are beyond his control, which is a cool echo of the Hall run.

Dropping the jazz sax player aspect was fine for me; Engelhart seemed to be a bit obsessed with that with Night Man and Shadowman, and it seems in hindsight more of a writer's pet thing at the time than anything else. Clear water on that is cool.

I can see the Buffy/Angel parallels that have been remarked upon, which is probably no bad thing - there is an appetite fro that kind of story-telling, clearly, and has been since we saw BtVS launched as a TV show. But to read that this Shadowman is 'campy'? Camp must be in the eye of the beholder because I did not get that.

I really enjoyed those issues and will stay on. Jack is a far more sympathetic character than Pete Stancek in the first issues of their respective books. He maybe less layered than Stanchek, but writing another d!#% (r-read what he did with Kris; he is a d!#% and then some) would have been a bad call.

All these characters are new, and will be on their own journeys. Shadowman's looks like it could take some interesting turns.

I don't get the indifference and even disdain for this book. Honestly, i think I would rank it as the third strongest start for my money of the new books.

I am catching up on my other runs, so it will be interesting to see how i feel when I have done so, but if the Jordan and Zircher could stay on the book I would be very happy.

Well said.

[jmatt]

Ya know, with the recent acclaim for Shadowman #0, don'tcha think we owe these guys the dignity of letting this thread die already?

Just sayin'.

[lorddunlow]

Ya know, with the recent acclaim for Shadowman #0, don'tcha think we owe these guys the dignity of letting this thread die already?

Just sayin'.

QFT (= quoted for truth; not quality fish tacos)

[Shadowman99]

Ya know, with the recent acclaim for Shadowman #0, don'tcha think we owe these guys the dignity of letting this thread die already?

Just sayin'.

If the thread just keeps on going because of everyone saying how awesome they thought the issue was, I don't think there's any indignity in that

[Knightt]

One well done issue (Shadowman #0), out of the current context, and with a different artist (that earned his paycheck on this issue) does not redeem the series. That's like picking a cherry out of a turd and calling it a good meal.

[leonmallett]

One well done issue (Shadowman #0), out of the current context, and with a different artist (that earned his paycheck on this issue) does not redeem the series. That's like picking a cherry out of a turd and calling it a good meal.

I honestly think likening the first part of the run to a 'turd' is an overly harsh criticism; while not perfect I could cite a few key points where Shadowman is clearly stronger than some of the other books (e.g. a more sympathetic lead than X-O or Harbinger; pacing - seeing the lead as hero by the end of issue 1 unlike X-O; there are others), but mileage varies.

[Knightt]

but mileage varies.

Of course it does and once people realize this and come to grip with that reality, we can do away with the that was 'overly harsh criticism' comments. Please

I find it hilarious that when someone posts a "MY DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN, HARBINGER #3 WAS THE BEST THING SINCE WE CRAWLED OUT OF THE PRIMORDIAL OOZE, IT'S EVEN BETTER THAN SEX WITH A WOMAN", the vast majority jumps on the band wagon, lauds the person for the astute and utterly correct read on that issue... and the world continues to turn.

But...

When someone does not agree with the gregarious mentality on the quality of a certain issue or where a story thread is going... for a brief moment, barely discernible but if you concentrate you can tell that the time between heartbeats is 'juuust a bit' longer than the last and this is where the world... stops... turning. Nobody can say a disparaging or disapproving word about the new books !! Stop the press as I come out of the woodwork and say that I REALLY don't like something.

I don't think anyone can argue that the new books are without fault of any kind and when I look at a company that puts out books with stories about MY MOST FAVORITE SET OF CHARACTERS IN THE COMIC BOOK UNIVERSE, well I get a little protective. If I see something that does not look good or let’s say art that the appears to have been drawn by a second grader, I think it is my right, my duty to say something about it. I have to wonder at some of the art choices that have been made to date and how management can look at a book or a panel and say with all honestly, "Hey that looks good." when it 'really isn't'. We can't say, "that sucks and it 'should' be better" ? If you're saying "It's not that bad" then you're wrong and you should demand better from the people who are taking your money.

Same thing goes with a storyline. If I am into the reading a title and I am up to, let’s say, issue #6 and it is at the bottom of my reading list, something is wrong. If I place other books ahead of it on the day it comes out, maybe even waiting DAYS until I slog through the issue, then it is an indication that the book is not doing that well for me. Now these stories, these characters are something that I have been WAITING for, PINING over for years and I am not picking it up on the same day of purchase? I am reading other books from other companies before my "better than sex with a woman" title that I just bought??? Yes dear friends, it is ok to say that you don't like a title. Yes, it is ok to call a turd a turd and not jazz it up and call it shinola. It is ok.

This is a thread asking me "Why are you under whelmed by Shadowman?" and I'm a tellin' ya why, pal. Now you can defend with why 'you' like it and why 'you' think it is better than se... well, you know. But to say that I am bearing down on the book with "overly harsh criticism”? Well, I think you are being just a wee bit (see "overly harsh") hard on me for expressing my true feelings and thoughts about 'why I am under whelmed by Shadowman'.

I purchase every title, every week they are available. I am entitled to my opinion as I am invested in this little endeavor to the tune of my time and my money. The line for giving blow jobs to Valiant is down the hall. The line for being honest about what we are getting for our money starts here.



Now look who is being harsh, eh ? You can't blame a guy for being a little bit dejected for being slapped in the mouth every time he opens it, now can you? I don't mean much in my above post and hope I haven't seriously offended anyone. I do, however, feel that if you don't give Valiant honest feedback and try to improve upon when they are doing (caveat: most of it ‘IS’ good), we will be able to purchase entire Valiant (relaunch) runs by scouring the $1 and $.50 bins like we were 10 years ago... and who wants that?

OK people, and that’s a wrap… I want my agent, a makeup artist, a blind one-armed masseuse, three hits of black tar heroin, a Siberian tiger (also known as the Amur tiger) and a Thai hooker in my dressing room in 10 minutes. Bali, bali make that $#!t happen. What are ‘you’ looking at ? Jeff, I want you to fire that New Jack City pimp looking MFer and get him off my set. If you don’t make it happen, yer @$$ will be in Denmark, making midget porn by the end of the week. Speaking of midgets, change that a Thai hooker to a midget Thai hooker with a Mr. Pibb and some Red Vines.

[lorddunlow]

Knightt, I'm speaking just for myself, but I think the reason you are getting these kind of responses is that your tone is very harsh - in all of your posts. They almost always contain profanity (or Q-bertized versions thereof - the video game character, not the board member), and you take the "shove your opinion down one's throat" technique instead of engaging in a civil debate. Now, I'm not saying you're wrong or not entitled to that opinion or that tone, (or that you have to engage in a civil debate) but you can't be surprised when others take offense to your tone. I often agree with a lot of the content, but often just skim your posts because of the tone.

We actually had quite a heated debate on these boards in the early issues of Archer and Armstrong (and obviously, more recently in this thread about disappointment with Shadowman) with many having negative comments about the books. There were arguments on both sides, but it never got to the point of calling others out like you have.

Please don't take offense. I tried levity to lighten the tone in the X-O thread. I'll try reason in this one.

[leonmallett]

but mileage varies.

Of course it does and once people realize this and come to grip with that reality, we can do away with the that was 'overly harsh criticism' comments. Please

So I have no grip on reality? Is that the inference Knightt?

I find it hilarious that when someone posts a "MY DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN, HARBINGER #3 WAS THE BEST THING SINCE WE CRAWLED OUT OF THE PRIMORDIAL OOZE, IT'S EVEN BETTER THAN SEX WITH A WOMAN", the vast majority jumps on the band wagon, lauds the person for the astute and utterly correct read on that issue... and the world continues to turn.

But...

When someone does not agree with the gregarious mentality on the quality of a certain issue or where a story thread is going... for a brief moment, barely discernible but if you concentrate you can tell that the time between heartbeats is 'juuust a bit' longer than the last and this is where the world... stops... turning. Nobody can say a disparaging or disapproving word about the new books !! Stop the press as I come out of the woodwork and say that I REALLY don't like something.

Can't say i have debated Harbinger #3 with you so cannot account for your diatribe.

All I was suggesting that calling something a 'turd' seemed overly harsh as a criticism. I think we have all read enough crappy comics to suggest that is an overly harsh statement; hell enough DU's were filled with crappy comics and I probably would never call them 'turds' either, simnply out of respect to the effort that goes into producing them.

I don't think anyone can argue that the new books are without fault of any kind and when I look at a company that puts out books with stories about MY MOST FAVORITE SET OF CHARACTERS IN THE COMIC BOOK UNIVERSE, well I get a little protective. If I see something that does not look good or let’s say art that the appears to have been drawn by a second grader, I think it is my right, my duty to say something about it. I have to wonder at some of the art choices that have been made to date and how management can look at a book or a panel and say with all honestly, "Hey that looks good." when it 'really isn't'. We can't say, "that sucks and it 'should' be better" ? If you're saying "It's not that bad" then you're wrong and you should demand better from the people who are taking your money.

I think there is a difference between a constructive 'that sucks' or better yet ' I do not like that because...' than simply denouncing stuff as a 'turd'. But obviously we have different views on that.

Same thing goes with a storyline. If I am into the reading a title and I am up to, let’s say, issue #6 and it is at the bottom of my reading list, something is wrong. If I place other books ahead of it on the day it comes out, maybe even waiting DAYS until I slog through the issue, then it is an indication that the book is not doing that well for me. Now these stories, these characters are something that I have been WAITING for, PINING over for years and I am not picking it up on the same day of purchase? I am reading other books from other companies before my "better than sex with a woman" title that I just bought??? Yes dear friends, it is ok to say that you don't like a title. Yes, it is ok to call a turd a turd and not jazz it up and call it shinola. It is ok.

Okay, so you veer towrds both ends of ridiculous hyperbole?

This is a thread asking me "Why are you under whelmed by Shadowman?" and I'm a tellin' ya why, pal. Now you can defend with why 'you' like it and why 'you' think it is better than se... well, you know. But to say that I am bearing down on the book with "overly harsh criticism”? Well, I think you are being just a wee bit (see "overly harsh") hard on me for expressing my true feelings and thoughts about 'why I am under whelmed by Shadowman'.

I think using the word 'turd' is harsh. hence i would not and did not use such language about you. Some kind of thin skin there?

I purchase every title, every week they are available. I am entitled to my opinion as I am invested in this little endeavor to the tune of my time and my money.

Anyone suggest you are not?

Code: Select all

[b]The line for giving blow jobs to Valiant is down the hall. [/b] The line for being honest about what we are getting for our money starts here.

Classy.

Now look who is being harsh, eh ? You can't blame a guy for being a little bit dejected for being slapped in the mouth every time he opens it, now can you? I don't mean much in my above post and hope I haven't seriously offended anyone. I do, however, feel that if you don't give Valiant honest feedback and try to improve upon when they are doing (caveat: most of it ‘IS’ good), we will be able to purchase entire Valiant (relaunch) runs by scouring the $1 and $.50 bins like we were 10 years ago... and who wants that?

Oh come off the 'victim' routine. Does not wash after this long-winded diatribe.

OK people, and that’s a wrap… I want my agent, a makeup artist, a blind one-armed masseuse, three hits of black tar heroin, a Siberian tiger (also known as the Amur tiger) and a Thai hooker in my dressing room in 10 minutes. Bali, bali make that $#!t happen. What are ‘you’ looking at ? Jeff, I want you to fire that New Jack City pimp looking MFer and get him off my set. If you don’t make it happen, yer @$$ will be in Denmark, making midget porn by the end of the week. Speaking of midgets, change that a Thai hooker to a midget Thai hooker with a Mr. Pibb and some Red Vines.

[Knightt]

I stand by what I said. Harsh language aside, it still is the same basic message.

You can ZWH it up as much as you want, but you came back to the table with nothing but hurt feelings (and it shows) thinking all of this was directed at you. I appreciate your bluster and trying to stand up for yourself though. That's the spirit. I'm sorry for your hurt feelings.

[Tim]

I'm terrible at writing reviews of comics, so I just have to react to how I feel about books with whether or not I purchase them or not. That being said I am torn every month with whether to continue my blind support of everything Valiant publishes, the excitement for total immersion in the shared universe that Dino and company have given us or drop Shadowman, which is dead-last on my reading pile each month, for me, somewhat taints the Valiant Universe that it belongs to (but there haven't been any real tie-ins to the other books, so there's still time to retcon it into a separate continuity), and is in my opinion a consistently godawful comic book.

Still buying it, though....hoping for a miracle....for a couple more months at least...

[lorddunlow]

I'm most upset by Shadowman #0. If they can make something that good, why not do that with every issue?

[Knightt]

lorddunlow... and I used levity rght back, didn't I? I know levity.

Man, I appreciate where you're coming from but if words like dog$#!t and turd have you on edge ( ), brother, maybe you should hang out in the church forums. :lol Lol (I'm not being mean here, honest... this is me using levity) Conversly, I'm not saying I am the guy you want to take home to meet yer folks but then, I'm not looking for a bromance either.

If you'd have been around back in the day (maybe you were, I don't remember you), you would have seen that this board has been through much more trying times vice some silly "harsh language". There is a bit of comic relief in there amongst the frail sensibilities infringement triggers. Maybe that's part of my charm. You see, guys like Leon have been around long enough to have seen me at my (much) worst. Yet, they still get a little bent out of shape. Its the magic of message boards.

But I hear ya, I do and I'm not dismissing in any way, I just don't know if I can do anything for you at this time.

Levity is always good though... I mean, a midget Thai hooker? That's funny, my wife even laughs at that even though she prefers to be called "little person". It just doesn't translate well as she speaks Phuan.

[Knightt]

Tim, I think you're way off base and your language is atrocious. You keep it up and continue to use words like "retcon" and man, I'm not joking, your @$$ will be off the My Little Pony Kwanzaa card list in a New Jack City minute ! !



(its cool, Tim hates me)

[Knightt]

I'm most upset by Shadowman #0. If they can make something that good, why not do that with every issue?

You know, out of all this... typing today. G-Money, you nailed it like Jenna Jameson at a hammer convention.

[Tim]

(its cool, Tim hates me)

More and more each day, homey!

[lorddunlow]

You did use levity, and I was glad to see it. I'm not offended in any way. I just haven't enjoyed the turn some of these threads have taken. I wasn't very active until right before VEI started launching books, but I lurked here and there since a little before I was first registered. I've also read through some of the infamous threads - although I realize much has been deleted.

I just like the light-hearted nature of this board and the fact that flame wars are almost non-existent - at least currently.

I just discussed with my wife the silliness of engaging in a Twitter fight, and I feel these kinds of arguments are a waste of my time (and as such I've been ignoring a lot of it).

I just wanted to point out that the tone has put a damper on my enjoyment of this fun board. Hasn't ruined it at all. I'm not asking for a change of behavior. You are of course free to have a voice on this board. I'm sure there are lots of members who wish I would stop making stupid jokes in every single serious discussion - I'm not going to because it's fun for me. I just wanted to point out that minus the tone, I had no problem with any of your opinions of the books.

Edit: Just saw a lot of the current posts - appreciate the levity being used now.

[Knightt]

I'm not going to because it's fun for me.

I couldn't agree more !!

I often agree with a lot of the content, but often just skim your posts because of the tone.

Uh... what ?

[lorddunlow]

I often agree with a lot of the content, but often just skim your posts because of the tone.

Uh... what ?

Sorry, that sentence is a little confusing, but I got tired of typing. Seriously, how do you guys type such long responses? I get tired reading them.

What I meant by the above was that I was initially reading all of your posts about how you were unhappy with some of the VEI books, but due to the overall tone that was bringing me down, I started to just glance over them. Of the posts that I did read, the content was a worthwhile read, while the tone was off-putting. Now I'm really tired and have to spend the next few hours catching up on paperwork. Ugh. More typing.

[Knightt]

I'm not going to because it's fun for me.

I couldn't agree more !!

I often agree with a lot of the content, but often just skim your posts because of the tone.

Uh... what ?

ok, the context was lost. I'll try again (lol)...

Uh... what ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l61LjTwME7w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;