Harbinger #0 Discussion

[jmatt]

Both the origin and the present stories show Harada working hard to get valuable commodities and then turning around and giving them to those who ask him that he deems need them.

Well, I don't see it as working hard so much as just taking. Working hard would entail things like oil platforms, surveying, capital risk etc like the people at Exxon do.

In this issue he didn't seem much different than Kris, eager to take stuff they didn't earn and hand it around to others who didn't earn it in the name of "fairness" and generosity.

[jmatt]

Ooh. That's true, and would be an awesome ongoing issue to deal with throughout the series. This would also place him in more of a grey area morally (but still mostly evil).

A major story point of VH1 Harada was his quest for immortality and fear of death.

Really good point Bugsy

This would be a good point for me to interject that when Harada was telling Darpan "I'll always be with you" I couldn't help but think that he has designs to "take over" Darpan's body when his body eventually fails.

[jmatt]

At least in that case it would have been members of a government's military killing members of another government's military (most of whom had signed up for the job), instead of the greatest minds of the world working together (many without knowledge of what they were building) to level two civilian centers.

Well, just for the record Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets. Hiroshima was home to 400,000 Japanese troops and Nagasaki was a major military shipbuilding port.

And while the entirety of WW2 is regrettable, the Japanese did initiate military hostilities at Pearl Harbor. Don't start none, won't be none.

[Baramos]

I think the strength of the story is its ability to cause us to talk about the underlying morality and ethics of the choices made in it--both the bombing of Japan juxtaposed with Toyo Harada manipulating the war in Syria, and Toyo's reactions to his childhood trauma.

Harada is the perfect villain--morally grey with strong motivations for his evil actions. In fact he might better be described as an "antagonist" as he may or may not be "evil" depending on each person's individual perspective. After all, he's waging a shadow war with Project Rising Spirit, who seem to be more evil than him and would like to do the same thing he does in manipulating the world.

It's a powerful story, it continues the tradition of Valiant being concerned with real world issues that the '90s era first started, and it causes philosophical debate--no wonder it is being rated 10/10. I would give it a 10/10 myself.

[lorddunlow]

At least in that case it would have been members of a government's military killing members of another government's military (most of whom had signed up for the job), instead of the greatest minds of the world working together (many without knowledge of what they were building) to level two civilian centers.

Well, just for the record Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets. Hiroshima was home to 400,000 Japanese troops and Nagasaki was a major military shipbuilding port.

And while the entirety of WW2 is regrettable, the Japanese did initiate military hostilities at Pearl Harbor. Don't start none, won't be none.

I said I didn't want to get into politics. I merely was trying to discuss the ethics and morality of Harada in this book. I prefaced my initial statement, and the one above, with a request not to bring politics into this book, something jmatt felt Dysart had done in other issues of Harbinger. I will not pollute this awesome discussion of this awesome issue with a discussion of politics. Having said that, I cannot allow this absolutely incorrect statement above go without being addressed. Anyone interested in a pointless debate about the atrocity of the nuclear bombing of two civilian centers please move over to the "Things We Don't Discuss" forum where I will be responding.

I still wish to participate in this thread, politics free, please.

[MarrowMan]

I quite enjoyed Harbinger #0 and the way the stories paralleled. I think it should really have an extended sized issue, to elaborate more on Toyo's past, but whatever. Was it what I was expecting from a #0 issue? Not completely, but it didn't fail either. It found middle ground by trying to tie the past present and a possible glimpse into the future.

[BugsySig]

Ooh. That's true, and would be an awesome ongoing issue to deal with throughout the series. This would also place him in more of a grey area morally (but still mostly evil).

A major story point of VH1 Harada was his quest for immortality and fear of death.

Really good point Bugsy

This would be a good point for me to interject that when Harada was telling Darpan "I'll always be with you" I couldn't help but think that he has designs to "take over" Darpan's body when his body eventually fails.

Maybe that's why he was so interested in Pete? His original plan may have been Darpan, but when Pete popped up with all that power, Toyo saw another option. Now he may be back to Plan A with Darpan. That would also explain his concern for getting Darpan out of the building when Pete showed up for a throw down in Issue 5.

[greg]

Ooh. That's true, and would be an awesome ongoing issue to deal with throughout the series. This would also place him in more of a grey area morally (but still mostly evil).

A major story point of VH1 Harada was his quest for immortality and fear of death.

Really good point Bugsy

This would be a good point for me to interject that when Harada was telling Darpan "I'll always be with you" I couldn't help but think that he has designs to "take over" Darpan's body when his body eventually fails.

Maybe that's why he was so interested in Pete? His original plan may have been Darpan, but when Pete popped up with all that power, Toyo saw another option. Now he may be back to Plan A with Darpan. That would also explain his concern for getting Darpan out of the building when Pete showed up for a throw down in Issue 5.

Interesting... I wonder if Harada believes his power will be limited to the power of the "host body" if he takes over?
If he could take his own powers with him, it wouldn't matter who he picks.

At any rate, a Google search for the meaning of the name "Darpan" returns both "inducing price" and "mirror/reflection/looking-glass".

[MarrowMan]

I just had a thought. What if Harada is already in his second or possibly third new body? He just picks young strong (possibly Psiots and obviously Japanese) bodies to host his massive intellect/powers? This might explain away why he doesn't appear to have aged in 70+ years to the age he should be. (An alternate theory, of course)

[400yrs]

Good issue. 4/5. I'm not sure what, but it felt like there was something missing for me that I expected to get, but didn't get. Otherwise, it would be a 5/5. The Kris issue is still my favorite (and I hate politics in comics).

[LABRADORIAN]

Didnt think it was great, it was just ok, and I am tired of the previews just give me more story.

[jmatt]

Having said that, I cannot allow this absolutely incorrect statement above go without being addressed. Anyone interested in a pointless debate about the atrocity of the nuclear bombing of two civilian centers please move over to the "Things We Don't Discuss" forum where I will be responding.

I still wish to participate in this thread, politics free, please.

You brought it up. I merely added facts. Those cities were picked because they were military centers. This is not politics, it's history; something hard to avoid in an issue set in Hiroshima.

I hope you don't think the "start none" jibe was directed toward you, it was directed toward WW2 Imperial Japan.

But I'll share with you my Dysart political observation of the month: When young Toyo asks the the Captain how this all came to be he responds that it is all the fault of the West. When Darpan is speaking with Assad, who does Assad blame for Syria's problems? The West.

Do I sense a little bit of cultural self-loathing? Or is this a portrayal of aggressors seeking to blame their problems on everyone's favorite scapegoat, the United States? One instance of this in an issue is simply dialogue. Two makes it a theme.

[jmatt]

Maybe that's why he was so interested in Pete? His original plan may have been Darpan, but when Pete popped up with all that power, Toyo saw another option. Now he may be back to Plan A with Darpan. That would also explain his concern for getting Darpan out of the building when Pete showed up for a throw down in Issue 5.

Hmmm, yes, that's an interesting extension of what I was thinking. The plot thickens...

[bygranddesign]

But I'll share with you my Dysart political observation of the month: When young Toyo asks the the Captain how this all came to be he responds that it is all the fault of the West. When Darpan is speaking with Assad, who does Assad blame for Syria's problems? The West.

Do I sense a little bit of cultural self-loathing? Or is this a portrayal of aggressors seeking to blame their problems on everyone's favorite scapegoat, the United States? One instance of this in an issue is simply dialogue. Two makes it a theme.

I would expect that type of dialogue from the captain of the Japanese army and the president of Syria. I think the theme is desperate, small minded people clinging to their hatred and beliefs to the very end. I don't sense any cultural self loathing.

[Chiclo]

But I'll share with you my Dysart political observation of the month: When young Toyo asks the the Captain how this all came to be he responds that it is all the fault of the West. When Darpan is speaking with Assad, who does Assad blame for Syria's problems? The West.

Do I sense a little bit of cultural self-loathing? Or is this a portrayal of aggressors seeking to blame their problems on everyone's favorite scapegoat, the United States? One instance of this in an issue is simply dialogue. Two makes it a theme.

Particularly in the case of the Japanese officer, that sounds like the kind of answer they would give.

[jmatt]

I don't disagree that these might be the words of bad people in bad times looking to scapegoat the West. But twice in an issue isn't an accident. Good writers are careful to craft their dialogues in ways that make their point.

The Captain's dialogue made sense in it's context. Assad's was completely contrived, thus leading me to ponder if the author was simply looking for another opportunity to make his point.

Twice is a theme in my book. YMMV.

[Carson]

At least in that case it would have been members of a government's military killing members of another government's military (most of whom had signed up for the job), instead of the greatest minds of the world working together (many without knowledge of what they were building) to level two civilian centers.

Well, just for the record Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets. Hiroshima was home to 400,000 Japanese troops and Nagasaki was a major military shipbuilding port.

And while the entirety of WW2 is regrettable, the Japanese did initiate military hostilities at Pearl Harbor. Don't start none, won't be none.

BAM! Nice points.

[Baramos]

On the other hand, Project Rising Spirit, and in this issue in particular a U.S. oil company executive, as a symbolic representative of the U.S. ensures they are not the good guys either.

I agree that politics are part of the theme but presuming that one side or the other is being taken is going too far, I think. You have to assume the reader is looking at both perspectives, similar to Toyo who is attempting to be a mediating third party on the world stage, manipulating both the West and the Third World. His goal is to manipulate all of humanity towards his end goals which are not in line with Western extremists or Third World extremists.

[BugsySig]

I don't disagree that these might be the words of bad people in bad times looking to scapegoat the West. But twice in an issue isn't an accident. Good writers are careful to craft their dialogues in ways that make their point.

The Captain's dialogue made sense in it's context. Assad's was completely contrived, thus leading me to ponder if the author was simply looking for another opportunity to make his point.

Twice is a theme in my book. YMMV.

I think, like many other points in the issue, it was repeated as part of the mirrored story of Harada and Darpan.

[jmatt]

I think, like many other points in the issue, it was repeated as part of the mirrored story of Harada and Darpan.

I suppose. But one would think that if you wanted to draw a connection between Darpan and Toyo, you'd have similarities in their dialogue, not the dialogue of their respective counterparts. But I get what you mean.

[kjjohanson]

Loved this issue. It was head popping

[kjjohanson]

Does anyone have a decent-quality scan of the back cover of the gatefold version?

[greg]

Does anyone have a decent-quality scan of the back cover of the gatefold version?

This one is decent.
http://www.valiantfan.com/valiant/cd/ve ... _large.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

I want to know more about the triplets. I thought that was pretty intriguing. I definitely like how a very young Toyo was controlling his village. Learned very early on that no one can step to him. Hence the megalomaniacal issues as the man he is today.
Did he have a scar the whole time we saw him as a child? And that was not a tiny scar, that is something that would have left a mark for the rest of his life. Does that bring it back to when we see him as an old man on tv with Kris? Is there a "true" Harada vs. what he portrays to people?

[Chiclo]

I don't disagree that these might be the words of bad people in bad times looking to scapegoat the West. But twice in an issue isn't an accident. Good writers are careful to craft their dialogues in ways that make their point.

The Captain's dialogue made sense in it's context. Assad's was completely contrived, thus leading me to ponder if the author was simply looking for another opportunity to make his point.

Twice is a theme in my book. YMMV.

There are several instances where they are tying the past and present together by having dialogue mirrored in both time frames. The Syrian saying this is another oppourtunity to mirror the past's dialogue in the present.