Batman appreciation thread to discuss new comics, etc.

[Lightning Strike]

Hey ShadowTuga (and anyone else), since Jason is back, how would you rate the Bat cast in terms of pure fighting skills? I would rate them (this is pre new 52 since I haven't read it yet) like this:

1- Shiva
2- Batgirl (Cassandra)
3- Batman
4- Jason
5- Nightwing
6- Tim
7- Damian
8- Catwoman
9- Huntress
10- Batwoman
11- Spoiler

[ShadowTuga]

Hey ShadowTuga (and anyone else), since Jason is back, how would you rate the Bat cast in terms of pure fighting skills? I would rate them (this is pre new 52 since I haven't read it yet) like this:

Only the bat-family? Hmmmm...

1- Batman, who else? No. 02 may be a better fighter, yes, but no one has the planning skills of Bruce. I like to think that he would win, by being smarter
2- Lady Shiva, because, well she IS supposed to be dc's finest fighter
3- Cassie Cain, genetics count
4- Damian (the kid DID beat all the other robins )
5- Jean-Paul Valley
6- Dick
7- Jason (as good as Dick? but tougher than Tim pre new-52)
8- Tim (nowadays he could be higher. f*** new 52 Tim)
9- Every-Batgirl-other-than-Cassie (otherwise I can't buy this character. She has to be an awesome fighter, no matter who's wearing the cowl)
10- Huntress (for the same reasons than no. 09)
11- Alfred II, Titus & Bat-Cow

[ShadowTuga]

EDIT -Double post. Sorry.

[Lightning Strike]

Hey ShadowTuga (and anyone else), since Jason is back, how would you rate the Bat cast in terms of pure fighting skills? I would rate them (this is pre new 52 since I haven't read it yet) like this:

Only the bat-family? Hmmmm...

1- Batman, who else? No. 02 may be a better fighter, yes, but no one has the planning skills of Bruce. I like to think that he would win, by being smarter
2- Lady Shiva, because, well she IS supposed to be dc's finest fighter
3- Cassie Cain, genetics count
4- Damian (the kid DID beat all the other robins )

Wow, when did this happen?

5- Jean-Paul Valley

I didn't include him on my list since he was dead

6- Dick
7- Jason (as good as Dick? but tougher than Tim pre new-52)

I put Jason higher on my list because he pretty much stalemated Batman and was trained by the League of Assassins

8- Tim (nowadays he could be higher. f*** new 52 Tim)

Has he been portrayed as being a better fighter in the new 52? can you give me some examples?

[ShadowTuga]

8- Tim (nowadays he could be higher. f*** new 52 Tim)

Has he been portrayed as being a better fighter in the new 52? can you give me some examples?

Not yet, since I've only read the #0 issue for Teen Titans, where he's portrayed as a specially gifted gymnast. I assume this would easier his training in the fighting arts, since pre-new 52 he was much more the detective type.

As for the duel between Damian and the rest of the birds, it happened in the New 52 Batman & Robin (issue 10, iirc). He outsmarts and kicks everyone's a** in a very adorable, ninjastic way, haha. The moment where you see the outcome of his banter with Jason is stellar. Truly lol material.
But my "more serious" opinion on his fighting skills is heavily based on the fact that he's simply a genetically-enhanced genius, who was raised and trained by assassins from birth.
He's deadlier than all of the robins and batgirls, at least in my mind. And he's 10. Just shows how much of a writer Grant is to make me swalow this pill.

[Lightning Strike]

8- Tim (nowadays he could be higher. f*** new 52 Tim)

Has he been portrayed as being a better fighter in the new 52? can you give me some examples?

Not yet, since I've only read the #0 issue for Teen Titans, where he's portrayed as a specially gifted gymnast. I assume this would easier his training in the fighting arts, since pre-new 52 he was much more the detective type.

As for the duel between Damian and the rest of the birds, it happened in the New 52 Batman & Robin (issue 10, iirc). He outsmarts and kicks everyone's a** in a very adorable, ninjastic way, haha. The moment where you see the outcome of his banter with Jason is stellar. Truly lol material.

Ah, that's why I didn't know this. I haven't read the 52 books yet

But my "more serious" opinion on his fighting skills is heavily based on the fact that he's simply a genetically-enhanced genius, who was raised and trained by assassins from birth.
He's deadlier than all of the robins and batgirls, at least in my mind. And he's 10. Just shows how much of a writer Grant is to make me swalow this pill.

[/quote]

Everytime I see him in a fight, he reminds me of Yoda. Small and jumping around like a crazed squirrel. Speaking of Grant, do you like his work on Batman and what stories of his do you consider the best?

[ShadowTuga]

Everything he did on the Batman title, but my favourite part of his story (and it is one big story, with different parts), is "Batman & Robin" (Vol. 01), issues 01-16 (you can get these in an absolute edition HC or the 3 TPBs. I cannot tell you how much fun it is, you have to read it yourself. Seriously. Thank me later.

To read Grant's work you might start from the very beginning. "Batman & The Black Glove" collects both the Black Glove and R.I.P storylines, both essential to understand his run. Also, i might warn you that he plays a lot with older, silly stories from the 50's and 60's, so you have references to stuff that might as well be forgotten, but is put under a new light and it works tremendously. It's a very rewarding reading, you get to catch bits of stuff every new read. Actually, DC put out a collection of these old stories, so people could actually understand what was the Batmen of All-Nations or WTH was Zur-en-Arr, for example (man, just thinking about that word brings chills to my neck). And Bat-mite.

After R.I.P. you could read the post-Crisis stuff (the matter of the disappearance of Bats and what happened to him in Final Crisis is kinda messy. At one point, people think he died before he actually "died", but you have to read it yourself ), I think it's all collected in one HC. It has a Neil Gaiman story, some good stuff in there, but not essential in my mind.
I'd avoid Final Crisis itself, the Batman bit, albeit important as hell, is very short. You can easily jump in after it, just by reading the wikipedia entry on it or something.

Sooooo, after the Final Crisis events (basically, Bruce shoots Darkseid who in turn sends him back in time) the story continues with "The Return of Bruce Wayne" mini-series (an amazing story that makes Bruce Wayne even more of a badass), at the same time that "Batman & Robin" runs. All of it converges in issue 16 of the latter, then Grant leaves this title and takes it to "Batman Incorporated" (Vol.01) which is good, but is not as good as I hoped it was. After the final issue (8) you only have to read the one-shot "Leviathan Strikes" and the 7 issues of the current volume of "Incorporated", which will end Grant's work on Batman in issue 12.

[Lightning Strike]

Everything he did on the Batman title, but my favourite part of his story (and it is one big story, with different parts), is "Batman & Robin" (Vol. 01), issues 01-16 (you can get these in an absolute edition HC or the 3 TPBs. I cannot tell you how much fun it is, you have to read it yourself. Seriously. Thank me later.

To read Grant's work you might start from the very beginning. "Batman & The Black Glove" collects both the Black Glove and R.I.P storylines, both essential to understand his run. Also, i might warn you that he plays a lot with older, silly stories from the 50's and 60's, so you have references to stuff that might as well be forgotten, but is put under a new light and it works tremendously. It's a very rewarding reading, you get to catch bits of stuff every new read. Actually, DC put out a collection of these old stories, so people could actually understand what was the Batmen of All-Nations or WTH was Zur-en-Arr, for example (man, just thinking about that word brings chills to my neck). And Bat-mite.

After R.I.P. you could read the post-Crisis stuff (the matter of the disappearance of Bats and what happened to him in Final Crisis is kinda messy. At one point, people think he died before he actually "died", but you have to read it yourself ), I think it's all collected in one HC. It has a Neil Gaiman story, some good stuff in there, but not essential in my mind.
I'd avoid Final Crisis itself, the Batman bit, albeit important as hell, is very short. You can easily jump in after it, just by reading the wikipedia entry on it or something.

Sooooo, after the Final Crisis events (basically, Bruce shoots Darkseid who in turn sends him back in time) the story continues with "The Return of Bruce Wayne" mini-series (an amazing story that makes Bruce Wayne even more of a badass), at the same time that "Batman & Robin" runs. All of it converges in issue 16 of the latter, then Grant leaves this title and takes it to "Batman Incorporated" (Vol.01) which is good, but is not as good as I hoped it was. After the final issue (8) you only have to read the one-shot "Leviathan Strikes" and the 7 issues of the current volume of "Incorporated", which will end Grant's work on Batman in issue 12.

Thanks ST, that really helps me out. Now I know what books to get that I don't already have.

[ShadowTuga]

Hey, no prob. I'm glad I can point you to some good Batman stuff.

EDIT - Edited for the sake of insisting that you do not waste your money on anything that Tony Daniel did since the new 52.
He's a fantastic artist, truly a master of pencil, but he somehow dropped the ball on 'tec. By issue 4, I was tearing my hair with all the plot holes and stupid lines. If you don't believe me, read the reviews for his stuff, I don't think anyone with a brain can defend those stories.
I was a fan of his work, I hope he gets it together as a writer, or just leave it to someone else who cares. Like I said, I think he IS a fantastic artist.

[nutflush76]

Hey, no prob. I'm glad I can point you to some good Batman stuff.

EDIT - Edited for the sake of insisting that you do not waste your money on anything that Tony Daniel did since the new 52.
He's a fantastic artist, truly a master of pencil, but he somehow dropped the ball on 'tec. By issue 4, I was tearing my hair with all the plot holes and stupid lines. If you don't believe me, read the reviews for his stuff, I don't think anyone with a brain can defend those stories.
I was a fan of his work, I hope he gets it together as a writer, or just leave it to someone else who cares. Like I said, I think he IS a fantastic artist.

I didn't read his New 52 Detective stuff, but the Battle For the cowl miniseries he did was pretty horrible.

[Lightning Strike]

Hey, no prob. I'm glad I can point you to some good Batman stuff.

EDIT - Edited for the sake of insisting that you do not waste your money on anything that Tony Daniel did since the new 52.
He's a fantastic artist, truly a master of pencil, but he somehow dropped the ball on 'tec. By issue 4, I was tearing my hair with all the plot holes and stupid lines. If you don't believe me, read the reviews for his stuff, I don't think anyone with a brain can defend those stories.
I was a fan of his work, I hope he gets it together as a writer, or just leave it to someone else who cares. Like I said, I think he IS a fantastic artist.

Thanks for the heads up

[ShadowTuga]

Hey, no prob. I'm glad I can point you to some good Batman stuff.

EDIT - Edited for the sake of insisting that you do not waste your money on anything that Tony Daniel did since the new 52.
He's a fantastic artist, truly a master of pencil, but he somehow dropped the ball on 'tec. By issue 4, I was tearing my hair with all the plot holes and stupid lines. If you don't believe me, read the reviews for his stuff, I don't think anyone with a brain can defend those stories.
I was a fan of his work, I hope he gets it together as a writer, or just leave it to someone else who cares. Like I said, I think he IS a fantastic artist.

I didn't read his New 52 Detective stuff, but the Battle For the cowl miniseries he did was pretty horrible.

I actually enjoyed it, but it's mostly because of the premise itself and Jason Todd's being one crazy m.f. Nothing to write home about, but a fun read. Granted, his new stuff was 10 times worse.

I picked up some "Legends of the Dark Knight" books yesterday, the issues with Freeze around 190-195. Haven't read'em yet, but the art looks cool, in a stylized, cartoony way. Even if they suck, they cost me 50 cents each, so...

[ian_house]

Hey, no prob. I'm glad I can point you to some good Batman stuff.

EDIT - Edited for the sake of insisting that you do not waste your money on anything that Tony Daniel did since the new 52.
He's a fantastic artist, truly a master of pencil, but he somehow dropped the ball on 'tec. By issue 4, I was tearing my hair with all the plot holes and stupid lines. If you don't believe me, read the reviews for his stuff, I don't think anyone with a brain can defend those stories.
I was a fan of his work, I hope he gets it together as a writer, or just leave it to someone else who cares. Like I said, I think he IS a fantastic artist.

I didn't read his New 52 Detective stuff, but the Battle For the cowl miniseries he did was pretty horrible.

I actually enjoyed it, but it's mostly because of the premise itself and Jason Todd's being one crazy m.f. Nothing to write home about, but a fun read. Granted, his new stuff was 10 times worse.

I picked up some "Legends of the Dark Knight" books yesterday, the issues with Freeze around 190-195. Haven't read'em yet, but the art looks cool, in a stylized, cartoony way. Even if they suck, they cost me 50 cents each, so...

Everything Tony Daniel's written related to Batman has been pretty poor. To relaunch the longest running DC series with him shows the problems DC has.

[Cyberstrike]

1) Batwoman

The rest of Batman books I don't give a damn about.

[tarheelmarine]

Everything he did on the Batman title, but my favourite part of his story (and it is one big story, with different parts), is "Batman & Robin" (Vol. 01), issues 01-16 (you can get these in an absolute edition HC or the 3 TPBs. I cannot tell you how much fun it is, you have to read it yourself. Seriously. Thank me later.

To read Grant's work you might start from the very beginning. "Batman & The Black Glove" collects both the Black Glove and R.I.P storylines, both essential to understand his run. Also, i might warn you that he plays a lot with older, silly stories from the 50's and 60's, so you have references to stuff that might as well be forgotten, but is put under a new light and it works tremendously. It's a very rewarding reading, you get to catch bits of stuff every new read. Actually, DC put out a collection of these old stories, so people could actually understand what was the Batmen of All-Nations or WTH was Zur-en-Arr, for example (man, just thinking about that word brings chills to my neck). And Bat-mite.

After R.I.P. you could read the post-Crisis stuff (the matter of the disappearance of Bats and what happened to him in Final Crisis is kinda messy. At one point, people think he died before he actually "died", but you have to read it yourself ), I think it's all collected in one HC. It has a Neil Gaiman story, some good stuff in there, but not essential in my mind.
I'd avoid Final Crisis itself, the Batman bit, albeit important as hell, is very short. You can easily jump in after it, just by reading the wikipedia entry on it or something.

Sooooo, after the Final Crisis events (basically, Bruce shoots Darkseid who in turn sends him back in time) the story continues with "The Return of Bruce Wayne" mini-series (an amazing story that makes Bruce Wayne even more of a badass), at the same time that "Batman & Robin" runs. All of it converges in issue 16 of the latter, then Grant leaves this title and takes it to "Batman Incorporated" (Vol.01) which is good, but is not as good as I hoped it was. After the final issue (8) you only have to read the one-shot "Leviathan Strikes" and the 7 issues of the current volume of "Incorporated", which will end Grant's work on Batman in issue 12.

Great summation on Batman. I really enjoyed The Return of Bruce Wayne! The incorporation of Vandal Savage was nice (he was in a previous Elseworlds story with Batman). I enjoyed Morrison's run. I'm still not a big fan of Damian, and I haven't picked up Batman since 2010 but he definitely the top DC character.

[ShadowTuga]

Thanks!

I am a huge Damian fan, although I too was very sceptical of the mere idea of Bruce having a kid of his own- at this point, the ending for "Son of The Demon", where you see "the baby", was written-off as non-canon. He's just amazingly written by Grant Morrison. And I think that Peter Tomasi finally nailed his voice, the last 2 B&R issues were very Damian-centered and I loved it. As I said in another thread, issue 15 (DotF tie-in) was one hell of a comic, creepy, creepy s***. Arterrific job by Gleason.

But, if rumours are true, he dies in Batman Incorporated #8, which f it happens, will make me truly grief for the loss of one of DC's most entertaining characters in the Bat-verse. Damian is a character I would LOVE to see become what's been hinted since Batman 666, he has so much potential. Of course, being the son of his mother and the grandson of Ra's, he can always be "returned" by Lazarus, but I really believe that Morrison will kill the character FOR GOOD. The previews for the next months are very ominous and DC advised retailers to order extra copies of the book, because it's supposedly a BIG EVENT. And let's not forget the very first page of BATMAN INC. #01, (VOL 2) where Bruce is arrested and the franchise is dismantled... maybe he'll kill Talia?

I think we're in for some post-A Death IN the Family Bats, more crazy than usual, he'll work alone for a while and maybe Dick will return to wear the cape and cowl.
Either way, these next weeks of Bat-books are very important for the future of the line, me thinks. And we didn't mention the million dollar question: what's in the silver platters?

[ian_house]

Thanks!

I am a huge Damian fan, although I too was very sceptical of the mere idea of Bruce having a kid of his own- at this point, the ending for "Son of The Demon", where you see "the baby", was written-off as non-canon. He's just amazingly written by Grant Morrison. And I think that Peter Tomasi finally nailed his voice, the last 2 B&R issues were very Damian-centered and I loved it. As I said in another thread, issue 15 (DotF tie-in) was one hell of a comic, creepy, creepy s***. Arterrific job by Gleason.

But, if rumours are true, he dies in Batman Incorporated #8, which f it happens, will make me truly grief for the loss of one of DC's most entertaining characters in the Bat-verse. Damian is a character I would LOVE to see become what's been hinted since Batman 666, he has so much potential. Of course, being the son of his mother and the grandson of Ra's, he can always be "returned" by Lazarus, but I really believe that Morrison will kill the character FOR GOOD. The previews for the next months are very ominous and DC advised retailers to order extra copies of the book, because it's supposedly a BIG EVENT. And let's not forget the very first page of BATMAN INC. #01, (VOL 2) where Bruce is arrested and the franchise is dismantled... maybe he'll kill Talia?

I think we're in for some post-A Death IN the Family Bats, more crazy than usual, he'll work alone for a while and maybe Dick will return to wear the cape and cowl.
Either way, these next weeks of Bat-books are very important for the future of the line, me thinks. And we didn't mention the million dollar question: what's in the silver platters?

I'd be very surprised if this happened.

Damian was a great character, but he's lost his place in the new 52 imo. With bringing the bat family closer, both age and feelings wise, Damian isn't as different as he was pre-flashpoint.

[carter3175]

OMG Azrael and Damian would have been a feared duo!!!! I'd collected it just to see them crush people!

[Lightning Strike]

Which Bat book has been better over the years, Batman or Detective? For myself, I enjoy Batman more. Just seems like the stories and artwork are better.

[nutflush76]

Which Bat book has been better over the years, Batman or Detective? For myself, I enjoy Batman more. Just seems like the stories and artwork are better.

I agree. It always seems like Detective plays second fiddle to Batman. It always seems like Detective tries to have short 2 or 3 issue story arcs and always has a second tier talent either writing or drawing it.

I guess that it makes sense since Batman is easily DC's flagship title. But you would think they would give equal consideration to the book that DC takes their name from.

[ian_house]

Which Bat book has been better over the years, Batman or Detective? For myself, I enjoy Batman more. Just seems like the stories and artwork are better.

I agree. It always seems like Detective plays second fiddle to Batman. It always seems like Detective tries to have short 2 or 3 issue story arcs and always has a second tier talent either writing or drawing it.

I guess that it makes sense since Batman is easily DC's flagship title. But you would think they would give equal consideration to the book that DC takes their name from.

It depends on the time. Right now it's Batman. Pre Flashpoint it was Detective. And slightly before that it was Batman & Robin and neither of the main two.

Batman generally gets the biggest name though.

[Lightning Strike]

So I guess everyone knows now that Damian is going to die in Batman Inc #8. Your thoughts?

[ian_house]

So I guess everyone knows now that Damian is going to die in Batman Inc #8. Your thoughts?

Morrison's choice, it was his character and apparently this was the plan from the beginning. If this had been announced prior to the new 52 I would have been annoyed, now I don't really care.

[nutflush76]

I actually read the issue and liked the way it was handled. The fact that Talia was ultimately behind Damian's death (she called him a failed experiment) makes the story a little more complicated than just ROBIN DIES!

I'm interested in seeing the all silent issue in, I think, Batman and Robin #18 (although it might be Batman Inc #9).

It's easy to see where DC is going with this and Death of the Family. They are returning Batman to his loner roots from the 80's.

I personally like those Batman stories more than when he has all of his "children" to take care of.

[ShadowTuga]

Damian: This our last chance to stop a catastrophe.
Are you with me, Nightwing?
The odds are completely against us.

Dick: When did we ever let something like that get in the way? Robin, the boy wonder, DAMIAN.

Damian: So far, I'd say you're my favorite partner. We were the best, Richard. No matter what anyone thinks.

Dick: Hey, we can't help being great.

Dick as Bats and Damian as Robin was one of the Greatest Things that dc has put out in decades. DECADES.

THIS SEQUENCE BROKE MY HEART, NOT ASHAMED TO ADMIT , I SHED A COUPLE OF TEARS, MANLY-CONAN-CHUCKNORRIS TEARS, BUT TEARS.
I'm very, very sad, a bit-depressed even with the fact that one of my favourite characters is apparently gone for good.