Forbidden planet SUPPORTS VALIANT, WITH PERSUASION FROM ME

[betterthanezra]

And they say women are drama queens. Interesting thread, guys.

Coming from us this is pretty tame...

-Brian

[superggraphics]

Wow. Been catching up. Gotta admit. This forum can be more fun than expected. Been awhile since I followed a good flame war.lol

About the numbers. I've been a comic fan long enough to see the rise and fall of many a comics line. I praise(sometimes to annoyance) the new Valiant to anyone who will listen. That being said I don't have a lot of control over these numbers. I just want to enjoy these books. We don't know Valiant's cost structure. We don't know their business plan or financing. Therefore it is hard to predict what numbers are in the "danger zone". Especially for an independent company.

http://www.jimzub.com/?p=1953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

G

[nonplayer]

One out of the three small comic shops in my city has dropped the line.
Mine does order a few for the shelf but as far as I know Im the only person in
my city that gets any books at all.
Im giving out xo #9 to peoples pull box. Ive take some extra shadoman from the first valiant and put them in a popular pizza shop. I think I got a guy at 7/11 to like xo.
I really wana see lots more comics out of valiant im going to be very sad if this was just a tease.

[Phoenix8008]

Wow. Been catching up. Gotta admit. This forum can be more fun than expected. Been awhile since I followed a good flame war.lol

About the numbers. I've been a comic fan long enough to see the rise and fall of many a comics line. I praise(sometimes to annoyance) the new Valiant to anyone who will listen. That being said I don't have a lot of control over these numbers. I just want to enjoy these books. We don't know Valiant's cost structure. We don't know their business plan or financing. Therefore it is hard to predict what numbers are in the "danger zone". Especially for an independent company.

http://www.jimzub.com/?p=1953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

G

So he says it's hard to predict what #'s constitute being in the 'danger zone' and you point to a blog saying how there is no money left over for the creators in most cases. This doesn't answer the question still because we don't know how Valiant is financed. They got financial backing and had to know some estimate on what costs were going to be. So the question is 'Have they already burned through the money they were financed with to get started, and are they already surviving only on what profit they are actually making at this point?' We don't know how big of a 'nest egg' they started with so there is no way to assume that they are only able to survive if the books sell in big numbers right away. They may still be operating on their 'nest egg' money totally and any profit so far could be going into the bank to keep them afloat later when the 'nest egg' runs out. No way for any of us to know. That's between Dinesh and Kothari and Cuneo to know.

[BugsySig]

I posted an interview with Jason Kothari the other day, and while I wouldn't expect him to say anything otherwise, I did not get the sense that they are struggling right now financially. They also have a team in place with plenty of credentials and credibility in various entertainment industries. This isnt Dino printing books in his basement.

I really think too many people here are too focused on the LCS. While that is still the heart of the industry, there are so many other outlets now that dont make a publisher dependent solely on them. Digital comics, Trades on Amazon, DCBS, etc, all are available to consumers beyond the LCS. I have only bought 2 issues of the new VALIANT at an LCS: the Aja XO 1:20 and the #1 2nd print. Everything else I have purchases on ComiXology, through DCBS or on Amazon (TPBs).

A big thing over the next year for VEIs revenues will be if they are able to strike licensing deals. They have already licensed a trading card deal. Next would be toys, statues, collectibles and clothing. If they are able to do so, the additional revenue streams would help balance their costs. Video games and movies/TV would be the next level, and if done well (a big if), could be a huge financial boon.

Could sales levels effect VEis plans to publish a certain number of books in the future? Sure. But right now, I don't see the books going anywhere for a while.

[caniac]

XO Manowar is the best series to look at has we have info for the first 6 issues.
Total sales (based on this site) for regular priced books...first print only:

XO#1 50,000
XO#2 24,000
XO#3 20,000
XO#4 19,000
XO#5 24,000
XO#6 SOLD OUT

Maybe I don't know the industry as well as some of you but this looks amazing to me. Tell me what I'm missing

[BugsySig]

XO Manowar is the best series to look at has we have info for the first 6 issues.
Total sales (based on this site) for regular priced books...first print only:

XO#1 50,000
XO#2 24,000
XO#3 20,000
XO#4 19,000
XO#5 24,000
XO#6 SOLD OUT

Maybe I don't know the industry as well as some of you but this looks amazing to me. Tell me what I'm missing

That's definitely the flagship book, and you're right that its numbers have been excellent thus far.

[Carson]

You know what they say, haters gonna hate

Those numbers sound great to me!

Dangit, I said I was gonna stay off of this thread. OK, I'm unsubscribing now.

[Phoenix8008]

XO Manowar is the best series to look at has we have info for the first 6 issues.
Total sales (based on this site) for regular priced books...first print only:

XO#1 50,000
XO#2 24,000
XO#3 20,000
XO#4 19,000
XO#5 24,000
XO#6 SOLD OUT

Maybe I don't know the industry as well as some of you but this looks amazing to me. Tell me what I'm missing

I'd love to compare some apples to apples here. Comparing X-O Manowar to two other books that shipped their #1 issues in May of this year: 'Epic Kill' from Image, and 'Higher Earth' from Boom! studios. They are just the first two indie published #1 issues that were not licensed products that I could find on http://www.comicchron.com. Here are the numbers:

Code: Select all

Month       X-O         Epic Kill         Higher Earth
May        50,000       13,784             18,775 
Jun        24,000        8,255              6,964
Jul        20,000        6,813               ----
Aug        19,000        5,676              5,888
Sept       24,000        5,098              4,502
Oct        16,299         TPB                TPB
Nov        14,527        4,466               ----

Note: So, in July, Higher Earth wasn't on ComicChron's list, but in August, they showed Issue #3, followed by September showing issue #5. Not sure what happened to #4. In October, each of the titles didn't ship a new issue, but put out a TPB of the first arc instead. Then in November, Higher Earth again doesn't show up on the list.

So that's comparing apples to apples as far as I'm concerned (and as far as is possible). Indie publishers, same month start, new #1 issues. This isn't comparing new Valiant to old Valiant, or current comic industry to 90's comic industry, or 2012 Valiant to 2004 Walking Dead, or anything else. Only difference being that Valiant was relaunching an entire new line starting with this title as opposed to just new series coming out of established publishers. So, I can see X-O having a bump from that at least at the start. But X-O is consistently selling triple or more of what these other titles sold, except for the #1 issues. Also, X-O has put out a book on time and every month compared to these other two. I'd say THOSE numbers aren't bad.

[GGSAE]

Great work Phx! The numbers from those books would cause me an alarm, if I was a fan! Quickly dropping below 5k!

I never heard of either of these books, were they advertised much before release? Is there anything close to the Valiant titles, of a new book with an established history/fan base, that could serve as an additional comparison?

[BugsySig]

Great work Phx! The numbers from those books would cause me an alarm, if I was a fan! Quickly dropping below 5k!

I never heard of either of these books, were they advertised much before release? Is there anything close to the Valiant titles, of a new book with an established history/fan base, that could serve as an additional comparison?

If I had the time I would look up the numbers for the Atlas books that were released last year. That was a shared universe with some previous fan base. They also succumbed to late shipping and subpar art and stories. There was good press for them at first, with little follow up except for their Atlas United crossover. As of now, they are not soliciting any titles. I don't think any book made it past issue 6.

That and the Dark Key books would be the closest comparison I could make. Perhaps the new Ghost series from DH would be a good one to use as well, and the other CGW books as they come out.

There was also the Extreme Studios launches, but other than Prophet, none have been very successful. Larson left Supreme, and Youngblood is already under a new team. Even Glory, which was well received critically, will be wrapping up at the end of the current arc.

[MarkRoseHFX]

Phoenix that was a really great comparison, good job

[MarkRoseHFX]

I don't know how to make a pretty chart but here's a comparison for you:

Harbinger and Massive (Dark Horse) - both started in June
32,111 22,173 - June
17,239 16,600 - July
15,482 15,310 - August
15,298 13,427 - September
14,603 12,698 - October
13,617 11,455 - November


And Massive is 50 cents cheaper btw

[the1captain]

Wow. Been catching up. Gotta admit. This forum can be more fun than expected. Been awhile since I followed a good flame war.lol

About the numbers. I've been a comic fan long enough to see the rise and fall of many a comics line. I praise(sometimes to annoyance) the new Valiant to anyone who will listen. That being said I don't have a lot of control over these numbers. I just want to enjoy these books. We don't know Valiant's cost structure. We don't know their business plan or financing. Therefore it is hard to predict what numbers are in the "danger zone". Especially for an independent company.

http://www.jimzub.com/?p=1953" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

G

Interesting article. Thanks for the info.

[Keith]

Along with the mystery numbers being sold on Comixology, I propose it might be worthwhile to consider the classic Valiant issues being re-released online. Not sure how well they're doing, but I'd like to think it costs very little to VE to sell them digital and, since there would be no creator costs or such, there would be mostly profit coming in.

[xodacia81]

Along with the mystery numbers being sold on Comixology, I propose it might be worthwhile to consider the classic Valiant issues being re-released online. Not sure how well they're doing, but I'd like to think it costs very little to VE to sell them digital and, since there would be no creator costs or such, there would be mostly profit coming in.

I hope there are no "creator costs" but now that you've said that...nah. I'm not even going there.

[rjrjr]

I think comparing anything to the Acclaim books is a mistake. Acclaim made extremely poor decisions regarding the books, basically ignoring them in favor of the video games. Had they continued to focus on the stories and innovation that made VALIANT successful in the first place, who's to say where the sales may have ended up?

The boom and bust of the 90s led to the rise and fall of a lot of publishers. Image was able to adapt and thrive when the market changed, but Acclaim and many others did not.

The current market is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago, so 8-10k now is a far better share than the same number then.

Have the economics of producing a comic changed for the better in the last 15-20 years though? It's great that Valiant is seeing success on the sales chart (to me, anything about 10,000 copies appears to be a success), but is the cost of producing a comics more, less, or the same as it was when Acclaim failed? We've had a few years of inflation. Does the production cost more? Talent?

Nobody here really can answer these questions. Only the bean counters at Valiant know how the company is doing financially.

I'm hopeful Valiant will be around for at least a few years. Regardless of how it turns out, I'll keep buying and enjoying the comics as long as the remain interesting for me to read. The only comic I'm on the fence on right now is Archer and Armstrong. I am definitely enjoying the other 4 titles though.

[Phantom..]

Their are ways to get people reading valiant.

Keep saying it's ongoing, and keep on putting out great comics- so none readers / none believers believe it's not a flash in the pan. We know they have fcbd 2013 ready and 6 plus months of story line upcoming.

We know that - but do others?

Which leads to the next point. Hard for me to say, as I believe in self merit, and slow growth , word of mouth. But that doesn't work when selling and actuall product. You have to let people know you have a product for sale. A bigger push in advertising - a big event. It costs! Yes it costs - but the idea is higher sales to recoup cost.

How much did unity as a free book given away cost valiant back in the day. Look at the return on that!

Maybe, to finance something like that is not currently affordable. That's why we have to play our part, we have waited so long for the return. Talking about valiant and getting people involved, push numbers higher.

Love the comparison on the charts. Seems valiant start up numbers wise Is going very well.

[greg]

You have to let people know you have a product for sale. A bigger push in advertising - a big event. It costs! Yes it costs - but the idea is higher sales to recoup cost.

How much did unity as a free book given away cost valiant back in the day. Look at the return on that!

Maybe, to finance something like that is not currently affordable.

Yes!
A free comic like Unity #0... but how do you get it into the hands of people who aren't already following Valiant? How do you get it into the hands of people who don't normally buy comics?

If only the industry had some kind of 'Free Comic Book Day'.

[Phoenix8008]

I think comparing anything to the Acclaim books is a mistake. Acclaim made extremely poor decisions regarding the books, basically ignoring them in favor of the video games. Had they continued to focus on the stories and innovation that made VALIANT successful in the first place, who's to say where the sales may have ended up?

The boom and bust of the 90s led to the rise and fall of a lot of publishers. Image was able to adapt and thrive when the market changed, but Acclaim and many others did not.

The current market is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago, so 8-10k now is a far better share than the same number then.

Have the economics of producing a comic changed for the better in the last 15-20 years though? It's great that Valiant is seeing success on the sales chart (to me, anything about 10,000 copies appears to be a success), but is the cost of producing a comics more, less, or the same as it was when Acclaim failed? We've had a few years of inflation. Does the production cost more? Talent?

Nobody here really can answer these questions. Only the bean counters at Valiant know how the company is doing financially.

Agreed that only the people with access to the companies financial records know for sure how they're doing. I do however have a very simple answer for your first question concerning the cost of producing comics and the inflation since that time.

Answer: Of course there has been inflation and it costs more now to produce a comic than it did then. But that doesn't factor into the discussion of how many issues are getting sold because that higher production cost is covered by the higher price of each individual book. At the end of the the original Valiant/Acclaim run most of the books were $2.50 cover price. Now they are all $4 cover price. That is what pays for the higher production costs. Yes, the line could be unprofitable if they don't sell enough issues total, but we will never know what that make/break # of issues is.

So we're back to just comparing Valiant's numbers to other similar numbers from the current crop of comics these days and in relation to that, they are doing pretty good. So I'm happy and hopeful.

[BugsySig]

You have to let people know you have a product for sale. A bigger push in advertising - a big event. It costs! Yes it costs - but the idea is higher sales to recoup cost.

How much did unity as a free book given away cost valiant back in the day. Look at the return on that!

Maybe, to finance something like that is not currently affordable.

Yes!
A free comic like Unity #0... but how do you get it into the hands of people who aren't already following Valiant? How do you get it into the hands of people who don't normally buy comics?

If only the industry had some kind of 'Free Comic Book Day'.

You could easily offer a free digital comic at a low cost if you don't publish it in print. Or, even better, reprint it as a back up over the course of a few issues instead of the free previews they have been doing.

[Phantom..]

A free comic book day.
Come on Greg, it's never going to happen.


As or shadow man 99 the board member here.
We met again yesterday for a chat.
Interesting thing he mentioned, being new to comics, why buy issue 1 of a comic then not read the rest. Why do sales drop so quickly for issue 2,3,4. I had no answer, we both agree that after maybe 5/6 issues you can make a decission on a comic title - if to keep reading.
But if the story and art are strong, why do numbers drop? What are people expecting?
It took me to issue 7 of thief of thieves to drop the title. At least I gave the first story line a chance.

[the1captain]

A free comic book day.
Come on Greg, it's never going to happen.


As or shadow man 99 the board member here.
We met again yesterday for a chat.
Interesting thing he mentioned, being new to comics, why buy issue 1 of a comic then not read the rest. Why do sales drop so quickly for issue 2,3,4. I had no answer, we both agree that after maybe 5/6 issues you can make a decission on a comic title - if to keep reading.
But if the story and art are strong, why do numbers drop? What are people expecting?
It took me to issue 7 of thief of thieves to drop the title. At least I gave the first story line a chance.

Because sometimes you can just tell by the first issue if a book is not for you. Or some people still like to speculate like it's the 90's again in the hope their issue one will be worth something like it's the next Walking Dead #1.

[Phantom..]

I always thought comics in America as a mini stock Market.
With some people trying to pick a 'stock' and see if it rises.
Luckily it's readable. - well not if you Cgc it.


This spectulative Market makes lots of cheap reads in dollar bins!

Only supply and demand for an issue makes it more expensive than cannon fodder, no matter how fantastic the art or story.
This demand can just be mearly hype.the true value is the rare book no one ordered, but everyone wants. How much does bone 1 first print go for? Or has it's valued dropped..?.

[Shadowman99]

Hey, first of all, I'm not entirely sure on how to come into this thread at such a late stage, especially with being the catalyst for the whole conversation initially, but I guess...

First off I'll apologise for anyone who got caught up in that flame war regarding that bloke who joined the forum and then wound you all up with that idiotic graph of his. I'm happy that that other fella turned up later with some decent data to continue the conversation with, because it's been a really good discussion (sans troll), and in that regard I'm glad that Phantom... mentioned our conversation here on the boards.

To begin with, I agree with Phantom: No hitting people because they make an unfavourable statement regarding Valiant comics in your opinion.

So, regarding the drop in sales of the first few months of comics:
I understand that the first issue of a comic usually sells well due to longtime fans wanting to read a new story and intrigued newcomers wanting to sample something new, and make a first impression and see if it's for them, and also the 'comic speculators' wanting to stockpile their 'Issue #1s' for future sale, and I also understand that people will probably buy a handful of issues (say maybe #'s 1-4/5) in order to see if they find the new comic/storyline interesting, so for me this suggests that the sales start to average out after approximately that point in time.

Personally, I think I'm just a bit of an oddball in that I like to make my long-term impression on the first issue, and either stick with it until it starts going downhill, or plain just don't buy issue one in the first place.
But going back to what Phantom... Said:"...if the story and art are strong, why do numbers drop? What are people expecting?" That's a mystery to me. I can't imagine why, with a comic in front of you that maintains great writing and great art over the duration of its publication, people would just suddenly lose their interest in it. There must be thousands upon thousands of variables that affect something like that... What could the basic ones be? People (as individuals) suddenly don't have the money to spend on luxuries for a period of time, they discover something that usurps said title in preference, their shop stops stocking it, maybe they just have a short attention span... Any ideas?

And as for comic speculating... I understand the thinking behind it, but totally agree that a comic is only worth what someone wants to pay for it. You could discover a copy of the Marvel horror story compilation comic in mint condition that contained the original Spiderman strip in your grandad's garage and put it on ebay expecting to make $$$; but if no-one is actually willing to pay that much for it, the auction ends and reveals your comic's value at that precise moment in time: $0. Not a cent. But of course, if there are thousands of die-hard Spiderman fans that are willing to bid against each other for the privillege of owning that particular rare comic, then who knows what it'd be worth at that moment in time...

Anyway, there's my first proper post in the forum for you all