Forbidden planet SUPPORTS VALIANT, WITH PERSUASION FROM ME

[greg]

Well I apologize if I offended anyone but I felt he was incredibly rude right from his first post and I took offense to some of the things he said. Take a look around i've had discussions where I don't agree with people and didn't "attack" them just discussed it. I felt he deserved it whether he was new to the boards or not.

Don't say "he deserved it". That's not your call.

There are people who get their kicks from pessimism. The Spock side of me completely understands.
A pessimist is never disappointed and can only be pleasantly-surprised.

If we take a pessimistic view of Valiant, it took them 7 years from the time they purchased the copyrights to put out a new comic.
Sales of their #1 issues have consistently fallen, and the average copies sold each month has also fallen.
Valiant is trying to build a universe of characters and titles in an industry which has killed EVERY universe that isn't Marvel or DC.

OF COURSE it's easy to say they're going to fail.

All you have to say is: "I love Valiant! They're probably going to fail, but I hope they don't!"

See... now I'm either going to be proved right or I'm going to continue to be happy.

Either way, I win. Even if it does sound d-baggish.

[MarkRoseHFX]

Don't say "he deserved it". That's not your call.

True. I felt that way. I worded it wrong.

[Carson]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order. If you go back and read Thomas's post it wasn't even presented as fact, just an anecdote and opinion.

Yow! Now I'm a squee?

Here's what the guy concluded:
"In conclusion, Valiant is in real trouble. That comic shop manager was absolutely right to predict doom and you shouldn't attack him for telling you the truth."



To say someone was absolutely right that Valiant will fail in six months, and present crappy evidence to support that conclusion is asinine. Seriously. It's totally counter-productive and not at all helpful to Valiant or friendly to the fans on this board.

He continued:
"What you should do is use this as inspiration to push Valiant titles even harder to your friends. Or even better promote Valiant yourself. The original Valiant was famous for fan promotion (remember the Gold Cover program?). So buy a poster and offer it to your LCS. Buy a Valiant comic for a friend. Do something more useful than bashing the messenger in a Valiant Message Board."

So, my follow up question was what have YOU done to help Valiant. So far, crickets. Nada. Nothin. He's creating wack graphs and prophesying Valiant's doom.

I stand by my assertion that this is a place for fans, not haters with crappy excel skills.

On that note, I am done participating in this negative thread. I will go on being a positive contributor to this board. I hope if he hangs around he brings some positivity next time, and definitely not fabricated charts.

Viva la Valiant!

[KXXX]

Wow, I didn't even realize someone quoted me in this mess.

I refer to my LCS putting Valiant's on the sale rack recently and giving them the front-and-center spot (as opposed to sticking them somewhere stupid) on the rack.

My LCS is one in a chain that summoned X-O #1's from the other stores after I bought ALL OF THEM TO BE GIVEN AWAY. Those replenishments were never exhausted, but most were sold. There's only a handful of Valiants on this rack. A couple issues from each line, no more than 5 copies of each.

Whether or not they perceive Valiant as failing is irrelevant. They get my gusto about the company and have done a few small things that could help sell a few more books. They wou;d never spout off about a line failing.

I'm not here to argue... but I was only half-quoted.

[grendeljd]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order. If you go back and read Thomas's post it wasn't even presented as fact, just an anecdote and opinion.

Yow! Now I'm a squee?

Just want to go on record and be clear that my earlier poking was just pure joking - I definitely don't think you [or Mark] are any kind of squee what-so-ever. What you've done to promote Valiant is phenomenally awesome, and I think you're an all-around swell guy!

I stand by my assertion that this is a place for fans, not haters with crappy excel skills.

I'm all for hearing everyone's opinion whether I agree with/like it or not, I think its important to feel free to speak your mind.

Having said that, I personally prefer to be in the positive camp here as a fan, with a good dash of constructive criticism. I wouldn't want to be dismissed as a gushing idiot with nothing intelligent to say. I don't think anyone is perfect [least of all me], and anybody who is a creative person knows that positive constructive feedback is essential to improving your craft. If the peeps at Valiant make mistakes, I only care to see them improve on them, rather than get torn down for them.

[MarkRoseHFX]

Just want to go on record and be clear that my earlier poking was just pure joking - I definitely don't think you [or Mark] are any kind of squee what-so-ever. What you've done to promote Valiant is phenomenally awesome, and I think you're an all-around swell guy!

I can be a *Squee* sometimes I think pretty much everyone can. I don't take offense if anyone thinks I was being one. Maybe I was. I just got *SQUEE* when he immediately said he was addressing statements that were totally invalid and one of them was mine. To me that was being passive aggressive. I could be wrong but that's how I took it. Same with the end bit I know Carson didn't like that and I didn't either.

But even when people tick me off i can be cool about it too. My brothers tick me off all of the time hell I can barely stand being around them sometimes

Thomas if you read this I apologize for the insults. We can be totally cool if you want man i'm all good.

[Phoenix8008]

You know what's NOT in those numbers. Other publishers numbers. There are publishers selling monthly titles that aren't hitting Valiant's numbers even with the drop. And they've been around for a while and will still be around. Also not in there, the ENTIRE MARKET is declining at the moment. They've also lately been competing with the Marvel Now stuff and a DC New 52 #0 month. Lot's of new #1's and stuff with inflated sales for the big 2. Another thing not in there, Digital Sales. Is there even such a beast that tells you those numbers? This board keeps increasing. Valiant's twitter keeps getting more and more followers. People are talking. Faith is being restored to the brand (literally too she came back not that long ago ) These guys know what they're doing. Sit back and enjoy the books if you do. Watch and see.

First off, sorry you've been torched some for expressing a dissenting opinion ThomasC22. The measure of our love for Valiant is inversely proportional to the measure of our anger at any perceived enemies of Valiant. You say you are a Valiant fan though, but just concerned about the numbers. I can understand that, but I have faith that VEI is not operating on a shoestring budget and sweating it out at this point over the sales. I think they are financed for a longer haul before being cash strapped and desperate. That's a guess, but it seems to be the trend that they are willing to take their time and not rush things. I remember finding these boards and becoming an active member a few years ago when it was announced that VEI had won in court and finally had full control over the Valiant IP (minus the goldkey 3). It was at that point that I started recollecting all of VH1. I got all of them within about 1 year. My point though is that right after their legal battle was over, we here all thought that comics were just around the corner. Every month was more discussion and more people getting disgruntled that they weren't doing anything and weren't even telling us, their true believers, what they were doing or when we might have some hope of new comics. That went on for a few years. So we finally have actual comics coming out now for 7 months. My point again is that they've taken their time and everything I see tells me that they aren't falling apart over these numbers.


As others have pointed out, the market as a whole is losing ground but Valiant has been dropping less on average than the market as a whole. I know the numbers don't show it yet, but I believe part of the dropping off we're seeing can be attributed to the whole variant cover thing. For me, I can't afford the 1:20 or 1:50 issues so I've never even tried (Maybe I'll collect them later if I can). I have been getting all the pullbox issues though. I think some out there may be getting tired of buying the extra issues. Also, Valiant isn't putting out as many pullbox variants as we move away from the early issues.

I can't do a fancy chart like the others to show on here, but I can list some stats:
(1R = issue #1 Regular issue, 2P = issue #2 Pullbox, etc)

Code: Select all

                     May             Jun           Jul             Aug             Sep            Oct              Nov             Dec
X-O                 1R+1P             2R            3R             4R              5R+5P         6R+6P              7R             8R 

Harby                               1R+1P           2R             3R              4R+4P         5R+5P              6R            7R+7P 

Bloodshot                                          1R+1P           2R               3R            4R+4P              5R             6R 

Archer & Armstrong                                               1R+1P              2R            3R+3P             4R+4P           5R+5P 

Shadowman                                                                                                          1R+1P             2R            3/2

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total/Reg # of Iss    2/1            3/2          4/3            5/4              6/4              8/4              7/5              7/5           42/28

So, you can see that those of us just buying regular and pullbox issues have purchased (by the end of this month) 42 comics out of the 28 issues that have been released since May from Valiant. Also, I can see why the numbers drop more from Oct to Nov. October had 4 regular issues and 4 pullbox. So 8 comics purchased for just 4 titles. Then Nov was 7 comics for 5 titles. Only two titles 'double shipped' like when Marvel give you two issues of X-men in 1 month. We are getting closer to 'real' numbers without the variant madness and I believe this is some of the reason for continuing drop, but I think it's close to leveling out and hopefully building up from there.

As others have said, it's early days and I believe Valiant is set up to be here for the long term.

[ian_house]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order. If you go back and read Thomas's post it wasn't even presented as fact, just an anecdote and opinion.

Yow! Now I'm a squee?

Here's what the guy concluded:
"In conclusion, Valiant is in real trouble. That comic shop manager was absolutely right to predict doom and you shouldn't attack him for telling you the truth."



To say someone was absolutely right that Valiant will fail in six months, and present crappy evidence to support that conclusion is asinine. Seriously. It's totally counter-productive and not at all helpful to Valiant or friendly to the fans on this board.

He continued:
"What you should do is use this as inspiration to push Valiant titles even harder to your friends. Or even better promote Valiant yourself. The original Valiant was famous for fan promotion (remember the Gold Cover program?). So buy a poster and offer it to your LCS. Buy a Valiant comic for a friend. Do something more useful than bashing the messenger in a Valiant Message Board."

So, my follow up question was what have YOU done to help Valiant. So far, crickets. Nada. Nothin. He's creating wack graphs and prophesying Valiant's doom.

I stand by my assertion that this is a place for fans, not haters with crappy excel skills.

On that note, I am done participating in this negative thread. I will go on being a positive contributor to this board. I hope if he hangs around he brings some positivity next time, and definitely not fabricated charts.

Viva la Valiant!

Nope, I just said you acted like one in this occurrence, no need to blow it up. Like I said I don't agree with his viewpoint but Im happy enough to hear it without getting bent out of shape. I've had no problem with you and think it's great what you have done, but at the same time that doesn't give you any leverage here, 90% of the peeps here are stand up peeps who have done alot for the board, charity and valiant.

[Carson]

I don't agree with his viewpoint but Im happy enough to hear it without getting bent out of shape.

No worries, I have pretty thick skin. I love all of the true believers on here.

I have no problem hearing a logical dissenting opinion. However, when someone takes the time to construct a misleading+misinformed chart as evidence of Valiant's impending demise, well, I'm going into attack mode. I'd say I'm sorry for calling him out on it but I'm not.

I did not say I hated him, I just called him out on his terrible chart and asked him to take those elsewhere. If he can't take that, well, coming on a Valiant fan site and producing terrible evidence of Valiant's impending demise probably isn't the smartest move.

IMO, he was looking for a confrontation and he got one. He's still yet to mention one positive thing he's done for Valiant.

Maybe one day we'll be buds, but as of right now we are polar opposites:
Me: Guy who loves Valiant and tries to win over new readers with positive stories about Valiant and free copies to read.
Him: Guy who fabricates crappy excel docs to prove Valiant will be dead in six months.

I am sorry if I defend Valiant too aggressively for some on here. I certainly don't intend to scare off any cool newcomers.

And with that, onto more positive threads. PM me if you want to continue the conversation, but continuing on here is beginning to feel redundant and fruitless.

[hawkeyeps]

I don't agree with his viewpoint but Im happy enough to hear it without getting bent out of shape.

No worries, I have pretty thick skin. I love all of the true believers on here.

I have no problem hearing a logical dissenting opinion. However, when someone takes the time to construct a misleading+misinformed chart as evidence of Valiant's impending demise, well, I'm going into attack mode. I'd say I'm sorry for calling him out on it but I'm not.

I did not say I hated him, I just called him out on his terrible chart and asked him to take those elsewhere. If he can't take that, well, coming on a Valiant fan site and producing terrible evidence of Valiant's impending demise probably isn't the smartest move.

IMO, he was looking for a confrontation and he got one. He's still yet to mention one positive thing he's done for Valiant.

Maybe one day we'll be buds, but as of right now we are polar opposites:
Me: Guy who loves Valiant and tries to win over new readers with positive stories about Valiant and free copies to read.
Him: Guy who fabricates crappy excel docs to prove Valiant will be dead in six months.

I am sorry if I defend Valiant too aggressively for some on here. I certainly don't intend to scare off any cool newcomers.

And with that, onto more positive threads. PM me if you want to continue the conversation, but continuing on here is beginning to feel redundant and fruitless.

I think you rocked it Carson, your a great VALIANT fan.

I think the problem was, the first time he posts here he has chart prepared and he's all huffy. No "hi how's it goin'" instead it's "I've been lurking around here and have had just about enough of the optimism from you annoying ingnorant fans- Here look at my chart! If VALIANT fails it's your fault for being annoying fans like the old Continuity fans, man I hated those dorks we had a party when Continuity failed, HA!"

You are a rightous defender of Valiant Carson, well done

[ThomasC22]

To everyone else, I don't have time to reply right now but I hope to reply to you some time this weekend. But I did want to address this point...

They know that the comics business isn't a short term business and VEI knows this from the beginning. Comics are for long term.

Jason and Dinesh are fans. They took a big risk... look at what they have accomplished in just 7 months with the VEI team. No other relaunch - IP has done this in years. I already give these guys a lot of credit for doing much better than the Dark-Key re-launch.

With Valiant fanbase, I can't see this company dying within 6 months. No way!

VEI is here for the long haul. I do have to say that having 14k-16k copies sold is much better than 8K-10K copies sold. I'd like to revisit this thread 6 months from now and see if Valiant is done for in 6 months. (I think not).

My concern is 8k-10k is where Valiant was selling during the Acclaim run and that wasn't sustainable. I'll be the first to admit I don't know the economics of running a comic company but I know Acclaim was planning to subsidize the comics with their games (using the comics as a marketing tool for said games). So Acclaim was expecting to lose money or just break even on the comics and 8,000 issue print runs were still enough to shut the thing down.

You can love the characters and still fail to keep the company running. Read the interview with Fabian Nicieza on this site. VH2 went out of business because they weren't coming close to making their numbers.

VEI is a company that has achieved backing by marketing the character portfolio. That doesn't work when the comics are failing in the market place. I don't agree with the "6-months and their dead" theory but its time VEI and Valiant Fans realize the numbers aren't heading in the right direction and make a course correction. I dare say VH2 would have been saved had they made a course correction 6-months in (when fans were starting to realize the watered down VH2 versions weren't working and were demanding the VH1 characters back)

[caniac]

Rob Liefeld...what are you doing here?






I kid I kid

Welcome to the boards Thomas.

[BugsySig]

I think comparing anything to the Acclaim books is a mistake. Acclaim made extremely poor decisions regarding the books, basically ignoring them in favor of the video games. Had they continued to focus on the stories and innovation that made VALIANT successful in the first place, who's to say where the sales may have ended up?

The boom and bust of the 90s led to the rise and fall of a lot of publishers. Image was able to adapt and thrive when the market changed, but Acclaim and many others did not.

The current market is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago, so 8-10k now is a far better share than the same number then.

[400yrs]

At this point I'm sorry I ever posted the chart. Can we just pay attention to the numbers?

I like this guy.

[drmirage]

Thomas. First... Welcome to the boards which I forgot to mention. I agree with some points that you have made. Its great that you are giving us your thoughts and opinions, as some (but not all) will appreciate.

About each 2nd, week of the month, member BugsySig always posts information on VEI's sales and numbers in the General Forums section. Here is November 2012 numbers. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38859" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I menioned it earlier....Warren Simons (editor and chief of VEI) said on a recent interview with OTV that he is happy with the #'s.. but NOT SATISFIED... I know where he is coming from. Looking at the numbers month to month, I am at a disbelief that each tittle drops 1,000 copies in sales. These are sales by the distributor and not sales at comic stores. I was already hoping that atleast X-O and Harbinger will be up since X-O Manowar # 7 and Harbinger # 6 were awesome issues.

The facts are:
1. Sales # per issue are down.
2. Overall sales is up because of a new title (Shadowman #1)

With much excitement for Valiant's 2013 plan. I am hoping that the #'s will go up soon because I know that sooner or later, the numbers will be as what you said.. "not sustainlable".. VEI does need to increase its readership / sales or else its going to be much more difficult to bring the #'s back up.

I completely agree with Thomas' concern that 8k-10k may not be sustainable. We maybe there 6 months from now, but I am hoping that the #'s swing upward. It has to happen... if not...


-----------------------

Here is what I have said.....

Like what GGSAE said....

"We have to admit, it's easier to have an average higher-sales/title with fewer titles. The key will be when Valiant has 10 titles out, and how many each title is selling."
---------------------

I'd like to add something to that... What about when Valiant has 15 titles out? How many each title will sell?

I'm going to play devils advocate here, so I'm wearing my flame suit on now.

I believe looking at the average copies sold by publisher (that Greg pointed out) is important, but its not going to be enough to keep up with the other indy publishers if you were to compare it to their top 5 books averages.

VEI's Goal is to be #3 publisher in 4-5 years right? Look at the #'s

Here are the top 5 books for the other indy publishers and their averages.

Image Top 5 Books: 34,682 Average
IDW's Top 5 Books: 32,958 Aveage
Dynamic Forces' Top 5 Books: 23,999 Average
Dark Horse's Top 5 Books 18,404 Average
Valiant's Only 5 Books 15,965 Average

Why is VEI at the bottom... Look at these #'s and tell me what these numbers say.

Walking Dead # 104 57,456
Saga # 7 46,971
Spawn # 225 26,872
Clone # 1 23,292
Fatale # 10 18,819
Image Top 5 Books: 34,682 Average
----------------------------------------------------
My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic # 1 80,128
Judge Dread # 1 32,266
Star Trek TNG Doctor Who Assimilation # 7 21,012
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles # 16 17,140
Locke & Key Omega # 1 14,246
IDW's Top 5 Books: 32,958 Aveage
----------------------------------------------------
Masks # 1 63,932
Boys # 72 17,120
Shadow # 7 14,884
Shadow # 8 13,778
Game of Thrones # 11 10,281
Dynamic Forces' Top 5 Books: 23,999 Average
-----------------------------------------------------
BTVS Season 9 Freefall # 15 24,506
BTVS Willow Wonderland # 1 21,260
Star Wars Dawn of the Jedi Prisoner of Bogan # 1 16,386
Angel & Faith # 16 15,446
Buffy The Vampire Slayer Spike # 4 14,422
Dark Horse's Top 5 Books 18,404 Average
-------------------------------------------------
Valiant
Shadowman # 1 25,048
X-O Manowar # 7 14,527
Harbinger # 6 13,617
Archer & Armstrong # 4 13,478
Bloodshot # 5 13,156
Valiant's Only 5 Books 15,965 Average
-----------------------------------------------------

Looking at these #'s, if you say VEI is ranked 3rd with 5 comics averaging 15,965... yes thats very impressive. But this also tells me that IDW, Image, Dark Horse, Dynamic Forces must be publishing some pretty crappy books for drag their averages below VEi's #'s. Thats my conclusion.

At this time, VEI has been publishing books since May 2012 (7 months). I'm still skeptical about VEI's sales #'s for November on why the #'s are still going down in sales #'s.

I only buy VEI books 100%. I follow VEI on Twitter and read this message board often. I frequently hear from other members that Valiant keeps hitting home runs with each tittle. (This and That) But if that is so. Then why are the sales #'s still going down? Does anyone else think that these numbers should start increasing? If that doesn't happen sooner or later, its going to be even more challenging down the road for VEI to get these numbers higher.

Valiant's Nov Sales #'s
Shadowman # 1 25,048
X-O Manowar # 7 14,527
Harbinger # 6 13,617
Archer & Armstrong # 4 13,478
Bloodshot # 5 13,156

The trend is still decreasing ... about 1,000 copies per month. (I guess no LCS is ordering 2,000 copies per title now) Looking at OCT Sales... Almost every title is down 1,000+ copies.

VEI OCT Sales #'s:
X-O Manowar 6 16,299
Archer & Armstrong 3 Valiant 14,715
Harbinger 5 Valiant 14,603
Bloodshot 4 Valiant 14,382

On OTV's most recent interview with the Editor, Warren Simons... Warren said that he's happy with the #'s but not satisfied. I am totally 100% agree with him. As much Valiant books I purchase, + all the other VF Fans here, the #'s are still dropping. I can only imagine if you remove the die hard VF Fan members.. How much would that affect the #'s. (thats because I know VF Fans purchase multiple copies to support VEI right?)

We know that VEI's creative and management teams put 101% of their hearts and souls into their work. (We thank them for that) With five titles now, how much more of that will it take for the readership to increase.

If VEI cannot sell A single tittle over 50,000+ copies... The only other option for VEI to reach #3 is to create a total of 15 titles that sell 15,000 copies each to meet that goal. I however cannot see that happening. Atleast Harbinger, X-O, Shadowman need to reach 30-40,50k per month for this to happen.

I've been at several LCS's and even my own LCS has had trouble selling Archer & Armstrong. Each time I go to an LCS, I ask how the Valiant books are doing. Some have given me an akward look. I know of 2 LCS that have told me the same exact thing. "The 3 titles are ok.. but I haven't sold a single A&A Book" ... Or "Marvel and DC are great. Once a customer goes down the list of Marvel and DC... they don't even bother with indy publishers"

To look at the share of overall units. Valiant is now .99% of that share. So it means for ever 100 comics sold. Its safe to say that 1 of that 100 is a Valiant Book.

Regardless of all this data and number crunching. I'm sticking with VEI all the way! Harbinger Wars in 2013 here we come!



-------------------------------------------------------------

My concern is 8k-10k is where Valiant was selling during the Acclaim run and that wasn't sustainable. I'll be the first to admit I don't know the economics of running a comic company but I know Acclaim was planning to subsidize the comics with their games (using the comics as a marketing tool for said games). So Acclaim was expecting to lose money or just break even on the comics and 8,000 issue print runs were still enough to shut the thing down.

You can love the characters and still fail to keep the company running. Read the interview with Fabian Nicieza on this site. VH2 went out of business because they weren't coming close to making their numbers.

VEI is a company that has achieved backing by marketing the character portfolio. That doesn't work when the comics are failing in the market place. I don't agree with the "6-months and their dead" theory but its time VEI and Valiant Fans realize the numbers aren't heading in the right direction and make a course correction. I dare say VH2 would have been saved had they made a course correction 6-months in (when fans were starting to realize the watered down VH2 versions weren't working and were demanding the VH1 characters back)

[Paul Nolan]

To everyone else, I don't have time to reply right now but I hope to reply to you some time this weekend. But I did want to address this point...

They know that the comics business isn't a short term business and VEI knows this from the beginning. Comics are for long term.

Jason and Dinesh are fans. They took a big risk... look at what they have accomplished in just 7 months with the VEI team. No other relaunch - IP has done this in years. I already give these guys a lot of credit for doing much better than the Dark-Key re-launch.

With Valiant fanbase, I can't see this company dying within 6 months. No way!

VEI is here for the long haul. I do have to say that having 14k-16k copies sold is much better than 8K-10K copies sold. I'd like to revisit this thread 6 months from now and see if Valiant is done for in 6 months. (I think not).

My concern is 8k-10k is where Valiant was selling during the Acclaim run and that wasn't sustainable. I'll be the first to admit I don't know the economics of running a comic company but I know Acclaim was planning to subsidize the comics with their games (using the comics as a marketing tool for said games). So Acclaim was expecting to lose money or just break even on the comics and 8,000 issue print runs were still enough to shut the thing down.

You can love the characters and still fail to keep the company running. Read the interview with Fabian Nicieza on this site. VH2 went out of business because they weren't coming close to making their numbers.

VEI is a company that has achieved backing by marketing the character portfolio. That doesn't work when the comics are failing in the market place. I don't agree with the "6-months and their dead" theory but its time VEI and Valiant Fans realize the numbers aren't heading in the right direction and make a course correction. I dare say VH2 would have been saved had they made a course correction 6-months in (when fans were starting to realize the watered down VH2 versions weren't working and were demanding the VH1 characters back)

Never take the numbers reported as complete numbers.

1: They don't include numbers of comics sold by Diamond UK. Diamond UK are said to account for another in-determined percentage of sales on top of the reported "estimated numbers".
2: The diamond sales numbers are reported for number over a set month. Comics released in the first week have more time for re-orders to appear on the chart. Comics released on the 28th November, for example, will only have three days of reorders. Reorders naturally don't suddenly stop at the end of any given monthly period.

Effectively if ICV2's estimated numbers say 15,000 the actual numbers may be around 20,000 or perhaps even more.

Then don't forget revenue streams that weren't around in Acclaims days.

1/ Comixology. Said to account for another 10% on top of print comic sales.
2/ International Liscensing. Foreign language editions of comics are in abundance. Comics can easily be lettered into foreign language editions nowadays.

And don't forget the numbers that Greg posted on the graph's ARE from the ICV2 numbers, so while they can be a guide. They're only a part of the total equation.

[Mark Fuller]

I'd say that sustained low numbers are more important than trying to get the numbers up. As I mentioned earlier, I suspect the hi numbers of the early issues were inflated, meaning the the big drop offs give a false impression of failure. If we get to a point where per title sales level out at 8-10k, with the occasional spike for new launches, big initiatives (ie Harbinger Wars) then I think we are doing very well in the current market.

Of coure what would be interesting is if we hit a tipping point that changes the game. Hmm. I may have to give that some thought....

[xodacia81]

I will be very eager to see what the LCS says about all this as it's been a few weeks since I picked up my books.

[superggraphics]

As I posted in another post I was told that if things don't improve past the FCBD push along with the movies in development VEI may go the way of the Dark Horse Gold Key relaunch... I was in constant touch with the line editor for those Dark Horse books and was repeatedly told by him that the books were not in trouble and were not going to be cancelled and we all know how that turned out... I personally love the new Valiant Universe and it is the only line of comic books I collect and I promote them heavily at whatever shows or LCS I'm at... Everything about them is top notch from a writing, artwork, lettering, promotion and production standpoint...

G

[400yrs]

As I posted in another post I was told that if things don't improve past the FCBD push along with the movies in development VEI may go the way of the Dark Horse Gold Key relaunch... I was in constant touch with the line editor for those Dark Horse books and was repeatedly told by him that the books were not in trouble and were not going to be cancelled and we all know how that turned out...
G

I'd like to know who you got that info from. No offense, but all the info you've had so far has been wrong.

The writing for the closure of the DK books was on the wall as soon as I read that Doc Solar #1. I knew the line would fail right away. Sometimes all you have to do is look at the product to see if it even has a chance. The DK stuff didn't. The Valiant stuff does. Are the numbers blowing the roof off the house? No, but honestly, they are better than I expected and have dropped off less than most books usually do which is a great sign.

Saying the FCBD is their last hurrah is a bit premature.

[FormerReader]

Saying the FCBD is their last hurrah is a bit premature.

Agreed. Have Patience. If it only took seven months to launch a successful company everyone would do it.

[hawkeyeps]

I think one big difference between Dark Key and VEI is the consistancy of all the books being released on time with no major disruption creatively (Harby 5 maybe a little on the art).

I don't know what the numbers were for Dark Key but I would have kept buying the books if they were coming out on a regular basis but the schedule seemed to just fall apart then fade away all together.

I think the first danger signs will be if we see a major drop in quality or rapid creative changes coupled with late books (happened with Birthquake), so far VALIANT has been very consisant both with schedule and over all quality. That's also a big consideration when comparing VEI to other publishers, some may have better numbers but are the books coming out monthly like clock work or was the issue the first one in three months? Inversley Marvel's double shipping practices (rife with creative disruption) put a major squeeze on the retailers for shelf space and budget and no matter how much they try they still have books that are late, very late or just never come out at all.

Consistant, quality books on time once a month. I think VALIANT is very discipled and unique in this regard IMO and as a fan I find it rather refreshing.

When it comes to Marvel (can't speak for DC but probably them too) you get to feel exploited as fan, like story telling has taken a back seat to money making.

And as far as most independents I would be interested to know who maintains a schedule as regular as VALIANT's? The books may be great but you may only get 4 in a year, if that's the case they would have to have triple the number of sales in a given month to match VALIANT's steady 12/year.

Sort of like Goldilocks- Marvel's porage is too hot, the Independent's are too cold and VALIANT is just right

[the1captain]

Wow. Been catching up. Gotta admit. This forum can be more fun than expected. Been awhile since I followed a good flame war.lol

About the numbers. I've been a comic fan long enough to see the rise and fall of many a comics line. I praise(sometimes to annoyance) the new Valiant to anyone who will listen. That being said I don't have a lot of control over these numbers. I just want to enjoy these books. We don't know Valiant's cost structure. We don't know their business plan or financing. Therefore it is hard to predict what numbers are in the "danger zone". Especially for an independent company.

[FormerReader]

Wow. Been catching up. Gotta admit. This forum can be more fun than expected. Been awhile since I followed a good flame war.lol

About the numbers. I've been a comic fan long enough to see the rise and fall of many a comics line. I praise(sometimes to annoyance) the new Valiant to anyone who will listen. That being said I don't have a lot of control over these numbers. I just want to enjoy these books. We don't know Valiant's cost structure. We don't know their business plan or financing. Therefore it is hard to predict what numbers are in the "danger zone". Especially for an independent company.

Exactly.

[pixierosa]

And they say women are drama queens. Interesting thread, guys.